Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[Debater Slayer]

Do you think it wouldn't happen frequently for men to refuse to have sex with her if they knew it?

I don't know. It would probably depend on the kind of men in question; I don't think a rational one would take issue with her being a transgender. So unless she assumes Tom is a close-minded bigot (at which point I doubt she would want to have sex with him anyway), I don't think there's a need to tell him.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Exactly WHY???????? That's what I was trying to contemplate.Beyond "bigot".Maybe I have more hope in humanities ability to adapt than you do.Maybe I'm naive but that is what I was considering .WHY did he feel that way? Then its "no one cares about Shirley's feelings".

I call it like I see it.

It doesn't "work" to just tell someone "you are wrong for freaking out that's ridiculous" ..If my child( yes analogy of child) says they don't want to walk in a dark room ...I say WHY?They say because I'm afraid of monsters ..I don't say that's moronic there is no such things as monsters and shove them into the dark room and say get over your self ..

A better analogy would be if you take your child into the room hand in hand, turn on the light, walk through everything to show there's no monsters and that the child is safe, and the child tells you they still see monsters. Now...given the information that the room is safe, now what? The lights are on. Every nook and cranny has been explored, and the child insists that monsters exist. Perhaps the child is suffering from a mental disorder. Perhaps the child is playing a game. Perhaps the child is being told by another adult to tell the parent about monsters. But all the information is there to show that monsters don't exist.

Also, the analogy IMO would be even more appropriate if you take the child through the room and show the monsters don't exist, and the child picks up a ball and throws it at your head because you're not taking him or her seriously. As far as I'm concerned, that's what's going on here. Hence, the difference between how specifically you and I have been approaching this.

Seriously, grab a pillow.

 

[DallasApple]

Is it really because trans-folk are creepy and weird and freaks of nature? Or do freakouts occur because people have been indoctrinated to think that trans-folks are freaks?

I don't know..(I mean I know trans aren't creepy and weird) but about "indoctrinated".I'm sure that could be part of it.But I for one never heard 'trans" anything until I was already grown..wasn't sure what that was.My world ? I was not "indocrinated" other than boys have penises and girls have vagina's and she grows boobs and has a period and he grows hair on his face.

First time I ever saw what I think was probably "cross dresser" but could have been in fact trans gender or sexual I was 30 and I didn't think "freak" I was just shocked.And yeah it was "weird" to me.Because it was such a new and different experience to something as basic as "male female" black and white.Oh yeah I forgot I worked with this one man before that I now think was a trans female.At the time though (before understanding) I just thought "something was wrong with him' and he was weird.I was confused ..I didn't know If I was supposed to say he or she or him her ..One time I said "O.K dude" and "she " said "dudette".I said O.K dudette..

That's what Im saying ..if like 90% of the population is what is called "cis" ???It shoudl be about educating the CIS...

I'm not an idiot though..there will always be the haters..the bigots..racist ..misogynist(oh and misandrist of course)..But I guess knowing what I know now that I had NO UNDERSTANDING of 20 years ago ..15 years years ago..10 years ago..5 years ago..My ingornace did not make me a bigot..just a person who had no clue..

 

[DallasApple]

[QUOTESeriously, grab a pillow. ][/QUOTE]

No.I'm not in the mood.

 

[DallasApple]

Seriously, grab a pillow.

Because you completely changed MY analogy about children and monsters? NOT even close to my meaning I think instead of a pillow I feel like punishing you ..not with a pillow though.I'll use a thick whip so it wont sting so bad...

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't know..(I mean I know trans aren't creepy and weird) but about "indoctrinated".I'm sure that could be part of it.But I for one never heard 'trans" anything until I was already grown..wasn't sure what that was.My world ? I was not "indocrinated" other than boys have penises and girls have vagina's and she grows boobs and has a period and he grows hair on his face.

First time I ever saw what I think was probably "cross dresser" but could have been in fact trans gender or sexual I was 30 and I didn't think "freak" I was just shocked.And yeah it was "weird" to me.Because it was such a new and different experience to something as basic as "male female" black and white.Oh yeah I forgot I worked with this one man before that I now think was a trans female.At the time though (before understanding) I just thought "something was wrong with him' and he was weird.I was confused ..I didn't know If I was supposed to say he or she or him her ..One time I said "O.K dude" and "she " said "dudette".I said O.K dudette..

That's what Im saying ..if like 90% of the population is what is called "cis" ???It shoudl be about educating the CIS...

I'm not an idiot though..there will always be the haters..the bigots..racist ..misogynist(oh and misandrist of course)..But I guess knowing what I know now that I had NO UNDERSTANDING of 20 years ago ..15 years years ago..10 years ago..5 years ago..My ingornace did not make me a bigot..just a person who had no clue..

Your reaction is not anything like Tom's reaction, however.

I remember meeting a transgendered woman for the first time in NYC. She and I got into a fight at a dance club (that's a story in and of itself), but it wasn't because of her trans nature. It was because I thought she was beautiful, told her so, she told me I wasn't her type, I said no problem, and she said I wasn't anybody's type, to which I threw her an obscene gesture, and to which she approached me and we threw down before we were thrown out.

I was told later on I had a fight with a trannie, and I said, "I don't care, she was a *****!"

I had various experiences in the city with transgendered people, hanging out at parties and clubs. But it wasn't until my daughter took up the torch and began furiously researching all she could about trans-folk and educating me on the science and backing it up with her experiences with her trans-friends. As a cis-female, she has dozens of friends in the trans community, and it's probably because she explores her storytelling and her art that feature transgendered and intersexed characters just as much as cis characters. She sees them as people and as active parts of stories. Her sharing of her stories created opportunities for other teens to come to her telling her their own stories of gender identity.

I always respected them, and checked my cultural baggage at the door when it would start to surface when I would engage with them. But I credit my daughter for truly giving me the research and the education to help to pick up the torch on trans rights.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Because you completely changed MY analogy about children and monsters? NOT even close to my meaning I think instead of a pillow I feel like punishing you ..not with a pillow though.I'll use a thick whip so it wont sting so bad...

LOL....NOW you're talking!! :highfive:

 

[DallasApple]

[QUOTEBut it wasn't until my daughter took up the torch and began furiously researching all she could about trans-folk and educating me on the science and backing it up with her experiences with her trans-friends. As a][/QUOTE]




Kids aren't just brats..they are teachers.

 

[Leftimies]

Consider the following situation:

Two people are at a social gathering. One, call her Shirley, is an transgender woman, the other is a straight cis-male, call him Tom. Tom approaches Shirley, believing that she is a cis-female. They flirt and Tom takes Shirley back to his place where they end up in bed together, and eventually consent to intercourse.

Later on, Tom learns through a mutual friend, John, that Shirley is in fact a transgender woman, and was assigned male gender at birth. After that, Tom is angry, and refuses to approach Shirley. He claims he feels "violated" and was was “deceived”, and it was “unethical”, because if he’d known she was trans, he would not have consented to intercourse.

My questions:

1. Was Tom wrong to suddenly reject Shirley on the basis that she is transgender?
2. Should Shirley be obligated to tell Tom her birth gender before consent?
3. Is it wrong for cisgender individuals to only prefer other cisgender individuals, to the exclusion of transgender people?

If you could explain why you answered the way that you did, that would be helpful.

Also you could imagine the situation mentioned above in reverse, but I don't think the answer should be different.

1. No. In this example, the desire towards 'Shirley' was purely physical, and thus he expected her to be what he saw. He finds out something about her that makes him uncomfortable, that was kept a secret from him - of course he feels betrayed.

2. Yes. Always disclose things like these, same goes for STDs (and in deeper relationships knowledge of being unable to have children should be disclosed too). Withdrawing this information to get what you want is selfish, but to feel betrayed over being tricked into something you don't like is not selfish. Whenever something may have profound impact on the other person's decision to proceed, negative or positive, let them know. If they reject you because of it...their loss.

3. I didn't...eh...get this one XD sorry

 

[Koldo]

I don't know. It would probably depend on the kind of men in question; I don't think a rational one would take issue with her being a transgender.

Consider men in general.

So unless she assumes Tom is a close-minded bigot (at which point I doubt she would want to have sex with him anyway), I don't think there's a need to tell him.

And there you go again...
I am starting to lose hope on you.

Just to confirm: now you are saying that Tom is a bigot for refusing to have sex with a trans woman, right?

 

[Koldo]

That's what Im saying ..if like 90% of the population is what is called "cis" ???It shoudl be about educating the CIS...

It is actually 99%+. Just sayin'.

 

[Penumbra]

Here is what I'm trying to say..DEVIL"S ADVOCATE...Tom (as well as many others ) may not see the fact she was born with male parts and had a sex change operation as simply her "medical history".Its not that "simple" for most.Heck for the majority.So not understanding what is happening ..and the confusion ..screaming BIGOT is not the answer.

Just yesterday I learned a LOT (with your help by the way and thank you ) about CIAS.It took me a few years and actually knowing a lot of homosexuals to "know and believe" that's how they are BORN...How I could do that was "empathising" but anyone who critisized me or accused me of being a bigot or homophobe would have not helped me 'understand".

You cant RUSH people to understanding who have it all backwards already or tend to see in black and white and are very comfortable there..that's ALL I'm saying.

I actually feel like I'm getting attacked on this thread to be honest.

That post was a response to mine, so I'd like to point out once again- I haven't once used the word bigot to describe Tom. Not once. Other people have, and I'm not disagreeing with them, but I'm preferring my word choice of phobia for my own posts because I feel it's directly applicable here- an irrational or disproportionate fear. More than a preference, and not a rational fear.

I'm not screaming bigot (or screaming anything really- I'm sitting here sipping tea), so I'd prefer that people did not say I said things that I didn't say.

The thing is, though, I don't base ethics on not upholding cultural norms. I don't think a woman with partially black ancestry is ethically in the wrong if she's in a racist culture and doesn't announce her ancestry before casual sex. I don't think a woman of Jewish religion or ancestry needs to announce her religion/ethnicity in an anti-semitic culture in order to be ethically clear. I don't think a trans woman has to announce her trans status in a transphobic culture, to put a disclaimer on her womanhood. The people that any of these women are sleeping with may not be up to speed on race, religion, or gender identity, but I think that is their issue to work with, rather than a responsibility of any of those women to put a qualifier on themselves for their partner. I believe that people with a fear or strong revulsion to something, have the responsibility of asking about it, and that it would be tantamount to validation of their beliefs to say that a woman must take the responsibility to disclose those things about herself to him, rather than the partner taking responsibility to either improve his understanding of things, or make known his issues beforehand for his own comfort.

I don't think it's wise to have casual sex like that in the first place, nor do I think people should ever put themselves into questionable safety. But I certainly think that it's a person's responsibility for their own issues for factors that are not harmful, rather than the partner's responsibility for his issues, if we're talking about whether Shirley is ethically in the wrong.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wouldn't say that it was 'his fault" ..But if that was against my principles I might still be upset about it..wondered why he left out what I considered an important detail.And the experience(the one night stand) with him would be surrounded in negativity in MEMORY.The fact the we enjoyed the sex at the time we had it would be of no comfort to me.And if I chose to not approach him ..I would not call that a "temper tantrum".

But would you completely ignore the guy and refuse to approach him, or would you let him know why you have a problem with him? And not too mention sleeping with a married can potentially cause problems for yourself should the wife ever find out. In Tom's case, there is no third party to be offended over such a transgression. And what about Shirley's feelings? How about we just be fair and make anyone who is or used to be a clown tell people that before they have sex with someone, because it may traumatize someone who is afraid of clowns. Dentists may also want to make sure their potential partners know, because some people do not like dentists. And if you eat meat you may upset someone who doesn't. It's really absolutely no different than a guy taking a Hispanic girl he believes to be Caucasian home, and then getting angry with her and feeling violated because she didn't tell him she is Hispanic.

 

[DallasApple]

But would you completely ignore the guy and refuse to approach him, or would you let him know why you have a problem with him?

I don't know what I would do..I might just decide not to approach him.And by 'refuse to approach him" I mean I do not contact him.I don't know if he contacted me if that would change things..but by "refuse to approach" that means (to me anyway) that I do not make contact with him again..what is so horrible about that??How would I be doing something "wrong " to him?

 

[DallasApple]

[QUOTE And not too mention sleeping with a married can potentially cause problems for yourself should the wife ever find out. In Tom's case, there is no third party to be offended over such a transgression. A][/QUOTE]

I said it wasn't a perfect analogy..but I also said it was an "open marriage" ..I was the only one in the 3 that didn't know the deal..I slept with a man in an open marriage who never told me he was married.(in my hypothetical) .

 

[DallasApple]

And what about Shirley's feelings?

What about them? Should we get the OP to ask? But give us a starting point?Like he did with Tom's feelings?

 

[DallasApple]

We got "one night stand" ..Toms angry Tom feels deceived Tom feels its unethical Tom refuses to "approach"..

Was it right for Tom to reject

Was she obligated to disclose

And sorry cant remember the last one.

No one said ..Shirley FELT or did anythng and asked "is it right or wrong what she felt and did"/.

ALL we know Shirley did was meet and flirted with Tom..had sex with him then he found out by someone else she was trans sexaul and his feelings and reactions to that..

Complain to the OP./.There was no Shirley after the one night stand..

I guess I need to PM the OP and ask him why he made it about Tom reaction /.But he did..and I responded based on that.

We need more information (in the hypothetical) to comment or "debate" on Shirleys feelings and reactions.CUZ there is no info!

 

[DallasApple]

By the way I have an aunt named Shirley...One of my mothers sisters.

 

[DallasApple]

Consider the following situation:

Two people are at a social gathering. One, call her Shirley, is an transgender woman, the other is a straight cis-male, call him Tom. Tom approaches Shirley, believing that she is a cis-female. They flirt and Tom takes Shirley back to his place where they end up in bed together, and eventually consent to intercourse.

Later on, Tom learns through a mutual friend, John, that Shirley is in fact a transgender woman, and was assigned male gender at birth. After that, Tom is angry, and refuses to approach Shirley. He claims he feels "violated" and was was “deceived”, and it was “unethical”, because if he’d known she was trans, he would not have consented to intercourse.

My questions:

1. Was Tom wrong to suddenly reject Shirley on the basis that she is transgender?
2. Should Shirley be obligated to tell Tom her birth gender before consent?
3. Is it wrong for cisgender individuals to only prefer other cisgender individuals, to the exclusion of transgender people?

If you could explain why you answered the way that you did, that would be helpful.

Also you could imagine the situation mentioned above in reverse, but I don't think the answer should be different.

Could you PLEASE tell us how Shirley felt after the one night stand?And when you say "refused to approach" did Shirley notice and if so how did she feel about that?Was she waiting by the phone? Did she even know that her "friend" told Tom she was trans??Anything..you have set this up with guidlines to answer strictly based on Tom.All we know is what Tom heard through the grapevine after the one night stand and how he reacted and nothing about Shirley.So people responding to that info in this thread are getting asked "what about Shirley's feelings"/So Op be fair..give us a clue in your hypothetical ..how does Shirley feel?????What did Shirley do or not do?(the next day)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What about them? Should we get the OP to ask? But give us a starting point?Like he did with Tom's feelings?

Yes, what about them. This sort of debate never revolves around how she feels about it, or if she should even care. It's always about how some guy doesn't feel quiet like a man anymore and he becomes scared that someone's gonna snip his balls off for it. So what? Who cares? There are certainly far worse things that can happen. Get over yourself and just accept it happened and that maybe next you'll be a little more careful because if you get angry over something really doesn't even actually matter at all (it was a one night stand, they both consented, it is what it is), then what will it be like it is something that does matter?