Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[DallasApple]

Yes, what about them. This sort of debate never revolves around how she feels about it, or if she should even care.

Ask the OP . I did.

 

[illykitty]

I don't think a trans woman has to announce her trans status in a transphobic culture, to put a disclaimer on her womanhood.

But wouldn't this fall under sexual preferences? What if someone doesn't want to sleep with a transexual? Is this wrong, why?

And there are many instances where it's not obvious that someone had gender reassignment, so how would someone know? Should someone ask everytime they want to have sex or a relationship if so wouldn't that be weird and perhaps offensive to some?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I think there is a difference between aesthetic appreciation of someone's appearance, and being attracted to someone's appearance.

I am sure there is, however I do not see how this difference is somehow pertinent to your earlier comment.

And that's because there are real consequences for adultery and incest, rather than imaginary consequences.

So, there are other potential causes for 'valid' preferences (not simply appearance and personality), those things that might give rise to 'real consequences'? Just how does one define the 'realness' of the consequences pray tell?

Is electing not to have sex with your child's tutor because it might complicate their relationship with your family (and thus effect their capacity to continue to be employed to render education services for your child) a 'real consequence'? Or is it imaginary since it is only the result of alterations in interpersonal moods arising from shifted perceptions and expectations - not a 'real' outcome, but rather one that is constructed as a result of people's thoughts?

There are real consequences for ANY potential relationship, one might question whether or not such consequences are directly effected by knowledge (or lack thereof) of her transgendered status; however she does not have the authority to make that decision for him. (but this is now getting off topic, back to preferences - I transferred this to the last section)

So now we have appearance, personality and 'real consequences' as potentially valid sources of preferences. Why do you believe this set of three cover the total spectrum of sources of valid preferences?

But when you're having casual intercourse with a woman, would you ask about her level of fertility? Should a non-trans woman tell you that she is not fertile, before having intercourse with you?

This thread isn't about a relationship; it's about casual intercourse.

Yes it is about casual intercourse, and in particular the responsibilities that parties involved have towards one another.

I assume that having an STD would be something you assume the other party should be notified about because of the 'real consequence' that might result in terms of transmission? If so, then there are certain things you believe are required for parties to disclose in order to ensure that people are giving their (relatively) informed consent.

The precise things that people might want to be informed about in order to make their decision and choose whether or not to give this consent might differ between individuals and there is no real expectation that she should know in advance precisely what those attributes are.

However, for a not insignificant number of people (and in particular males) being transgender is a relevant criteria which might effect their decision. This should be apparent to a reasonable person (not necessarily accepted as being inherently 'good' or 'just', but being recognised as being a valid statement about a portion of society's preferences for sexual partners); thus if we assume she is a reasonable person, it should be apparent to her that being trangendered might be a factor relevant to their decision and thus by withholding that information she has acted in such a way as to deprive them of the capacity to establish informed consent (the basis of our legal system). As a result yes he has every reason to be appalled at her conduct (rather than her gender).

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I see it simply:

If you don't want to sleep with a transgendered person on a one night stand, simply as a preference, then finding out later that you did sleep with a post-op trans-female simply is not going to make somebody freak out like Tom.

If you really have a problem with it, that you are so against sleeping with a trans-female for whatever reason, make it a priority that you don't. But let's be honest in that perspective of being so entirely against sleeping with a trans-person is a position that is phobic and ignorant (especially if one thinks they're mistakenly sleeping with a cis-gender).

Does transphobia only have to be defined as getting a lynch mob and stringing up a trans-person? Or can't it include being totally against having sex with a trans person in principle because....for whatever reason....one just doesn't want to have anything to do with them sexually? At all. Ever. Or else heaven forbid someone finds out they're just like everybody else?

It's a one night stand, too, folks. Mistakes happen. People say "whoops" all the time. Sleeping with a trans person is not the end of the world. Worse things can happen that will make one truly feel violated or attacked, of course.

 

[ManTimeForgot]

It seems to me like everything that can be said on the topic has been said at this point:

You are under no obligation to tell your partner everything (including gender identity) during a date, not even when sex is an option/likely.

You are obligated to tell your partner about gender identity if a long term relationship is forthcoming (as in you are considering getting married or long term cohabitation or whatever people decide they want to do).

It is not wrong to have a preference regarding your sexual partner's gender/sexual identity, nor is it wrong to act on those preferences (so long as they don't hurt anyone non-consensually in the process).

Trans-gendered individuals are people with feelings and rights and deserve the same leveling of consideration, compassion, love, etc that everyone does, but so long as we recognize them as being different somehow, then there are going to be people for whom that difference is both meaningful and aversive. React accordingly.

MTF

 

[Penumbra]

I see it simply:

If you don't want to sleep with a transgendered person on a one night stand, simply as a preference, then finding out later that you did sleep with a post-op trans-female simply is not going to make somebody freak out like Tom.

If you really have a problem with it, that you are so against sleeping with a trans-female for whatever reason, make it a priority that you don't. But let's be honest in that perspective of being so entirely against sleeping with a trans-person is a position that is phobic and ignorant (especially if one thinks they're mistakenly sleeping with a cis-gender).

Does transphobia only have to be defined as getting a lynch mob and stringing up a trans-person? Or can't it include being totally against having sex with a trans person in principle because....for whatever reason....one just doesn't want to have anything to do with them sexually? At all. Ever. Or else heaven forbid someone finds out they're just like everybody else?

It's a one night stand, too, folks. Mistakes happen. People say "whoops" all the time. Sleeping with a trans person is not the end of the world. Worse things can happen that will make one truly feel violated or attacked, of course.

I agree.

This was more than a preference- it was freaking out and feeling violated and deceived about it despite not having even noticed, and not taking responsibility for his own hang-ups.

 

[Poeticus]

But wouldn't this fall under sexual preferences? What if someone doesn't want to sleep with a transexual? Is this wrong, why?

My contribution to the pillow fight:

According to some, it is very wrong. It's worse than the Holocaust. Not sleeping with a trans-female is like, according to some, bigger than the massacres committed by Genghis Khan. If one doesn't want to have sex with a trans-female, he is the devil re-incarnated and quickly should be labelled the destroyer of virtue and morality. You have to sleep with a trans-female. If you do not, you are the vermin of all vermin. It cannot be sexual preference anymore. That wouldn't cut it. That wouldn't budge. If you do not sleep with a trans-female, you are a bigot, you are a transphobe, you are evil scum of all evil scum. You are like the racist that doesn't want to sleep with people of different colors. Even though the correlation doesn't really add up, you have to, according to some, believe in this correlation - otherwise, if you don't, you are the scum of all scum. You want to have a relationship with that beautiful cis-female from your Chemistry class? Well, you can't. Otherwise, it will be unfair to trans-females. Because, you have to have sex with a trans-female, and if you don't - you are overreacting and clearly transphobic.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

My contribution to the pillow fight:

According to some, it is very wrong. It's worse than the Holocaust. Not sleeping with a trans-female is like, according to some, bigger than the massacres committed by Genghis Khan. If one doesn't want to have sex with a trans-female, he is the devil re-incarnated and quickly should be labelled the destroyer of virtue and morality. You have to sleep with a trans-female. If you do not, you are the vermin of all vermin. It cannot be sexual preference anymore. That wouldn't cut it. That wouldn't budge. If you do not sleep with a trans-female, you are a bigot, you are a transphobe, you are evil scum of all evil scum. You are like the racist that doesn't want to sleep with people of different colors. Even though the correlation doesn't really add up, you have to, according to some, believe in this correlation - otherwise, if you don't, you are the scum of all scum. You want to have a relationship with that beautiful cis-female from your Chemistry class? Well, you can't. Otherwise, it will be unfair to trans-females. Because, you have to have sex with a trans-female, and if you don't - you are overreacting and clearly transphobic.

*smacks back with a pillow*

There's a difference between preference and phobia. One makes you freak out if you find out you unknowingly slept with a trans-person. And it isn't preference. That kind of reaction is phobic.

Seems to me that some people are wanting to feel justified in having transphobia. That doesn't make anybody scum of the earth. But it sure does seem to make some folks uncomfortable and defensive.

*smacks with pillow again*

 

[DallasApple]

It has been suggested unless I have read wrong by a couple people ..that simply not wanting to have sex with a trans person ,who would never consent to it is also phobic or some kind of bigot.

 

[Poeticus]

*smacks back with a pillow*

There's a difference between preference and phobia. One makes you freak out if you find out you unknowingly slept with a trans-person. And it isn't preference. That kind of reaction is phobic.

Seems to me that some people are wanting to feel justified in having transphobia. That doesn't make anybody scum of the earth. But it sure does seem to make some folks uncomfortable and defensive.

*smacks with pillow again*

*re-adjust my toga and my awesome silky hair; proceed to swing pillow*

I found a hair in my breakfast today. I freaked out.

 

[DallasApple]

So unless she assumes Tom is a close-minded bigot (at which point I doubt she would want to have sex with him anyway), I don't think there's a need to tell him.

This is one.It leads me to believe that if a man is informed and chooses to not have sex with her because of that he is a close minded bigot.

 

[Koldo]

*re-adjust my toga and my awesome silky hair; proceed to swing pillow*

I found a hair in my breakfast today. I freaked out.

Such a despicable hairphobic.

 

[Poeticus]

Such a despicable hairphobic.

I'm sorry. I don't want to be a Chaeto-phobe. I didn't know the hair would be there. What if the hair strand still had gel on it from last night when I was out partying with a few cis-mamacitas from Chem class? It would mix with the seasoning I had for that rice. I must now eat the hair along with the rice, otherwise, I am evil!

EDIT: This is just a Pillow Fight argument. Not to be taken seriously.

 

[DallasApple]

Does transphobia only have to be defined as getting a lynch mob and stringing up a trans-person?

Absolutely not.

Or can't it include being totally against having sex with a trans person in principle because....for whatever reason....one just doesn't want to have anything to do with them sexually? At all. Ever.

See.This makes it appear that you are saying that if off the bat a person says I would never have sex with a trans person that they have a phobia.I'm not saying they do or they don't .I'm just hesitant to call it a phobia and especially bigotry because that sounds more like preference.Except for you said 'for whatever reason" I'm positive there could be some reasons that would fit the definition of bigotry.But not all reasons.

 

[DallasApple]

Also the whole idea of discrimination .When talking about having sex with someone most of us discriminate in some way.Like I would not have sex with my best friends X.I would not have sex with a married man even if his wife was O.K with it.I would not have sex with someone much younger than me even if they were of age.I would not have sex with a non biological relative.I.E a step brother that I grew up with etc...and all my reasons for that another person may think are silly but I doubt anyone would say I have major irrational phobia....I'm also pretty sure there would be quite a few who would not think I'm silly at all.

 

[Penumbra]

Absolutely not.

See.This makes it appear that you are saying that if off the bat a person says I would never have sex with a trans person that they have a phobia.I'm not saying they do or they don't .I'm just hesitant to call it a phobia and especially bigotry because that sounds more like preference.Except for you said 'for whatever reason" I'm positive there could be some reasons that would fit the definition of bigotry.But not all reasons.

Could the person in that example explain why they wouldn't ever have sex with a trans person?

Is it a legitimate issue about their appearance (for some trans people), about other senses (like someone maybe not wanting to have sex with a current smoker if the breathe bothers them), or about the surgical results between their legs (apparently it goes unnoticed by some)? Is it a misunderstanding of the causes of transgender status, thinking that it's a personality fault or that the person is perverted? Is it a concern about harm (like someone's married, or someone has an STD, or the risks of producing a child from incest)? Or, can a person like someone's appearance, have no issues with a person's personality, but still find themselves repulsed by the idea of having sex, without calling it an irrational fear or disproportionate reaction? And what if they already had sex with a trans person without knowing and enjoyed it? What does that say about the later assessment of their repulsion towards it?

That's why I think, and others seem to think, there are multiple layers here.

-There are regular preferences, whether they make sense or not.
-Then there are strong repulsions, phobias, where the problem cannot be articulated and yet hasn't affected the actual act of sex or the person's personality. But even then, there's a polite way to handle it, a way of taking responsibility for one's own disproportionate issues.
-Then there are people with strong repulsions, that then blame the other partner, or expect society to revolve around their repulsions, rather than to take the responsibility to make sure their own repulsions are not present. That would be Tom in this case.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I agree.

This was more than a preference- it was freaking out and feeling violated and deceived about it despite not having even noticed, and not taking responsibility for his own hang-ups.

I found this interesting, and wanted your thoughts on it, Lyn:

Ten Signs of Transphobia in Our Culture, by Christopher A. Shelley

- Denial that the problem exists in the first place.
- Inability to distinguish between categories such as queer, gay, lesbian, and trans.
- Lack of meaningful discussion in educational and workplace settings.
- Anxiety over not being able to tell if a person is male or female.
- Crude jokes directed towards trans people or with trans-related content.
- Refusal to accept trans people as one's own teacher, doctor, politician, dentist, etc.
- Thinking that being trans is OK but also dismissing the idea of ever dating a transperson.
- Reducing trans to being merely and solely a psychiatric category.
- Trivialization and media spectacles centred on trans-ness as an object of 'fascination.'
- Refusing the fundamental claims of transpeople as being genuinely mis-sexed.

The Tyee – In Defence of Trans People

I bolded certain aspects of the list to highlight some of the responses in this thread, since I think they're relevant to our culture's deeply ingrained transphobia.

What I also found sad in the link was the story of how transgendered women are denied shelter when they're battered by a partner because the shelter only allows women, and they don't allow "men" in their shelter even though the person requesting shelter is a transgendered woman. I feel such a case ought to be brought up as important to how we work with victims of domestic violence, and gender-specific violence at that.

When it comes to this thread, however, I find the same grievances from Tom's supporters and those who empathize with his reactions and giving his reaction legitimacy as more evidence of the prevalence of transphobia in our culture. To which is why I applaud all your efforts so far to continue to educate the folks here about transgendered and intersexed people.

Keep up the great work, Lyn.

 

[Poeticus]

and all my reasons for that another person may think are silly but I doubt anyone would say I have major irrational phobia....I'm also pretty sure there would be quite a few who would not think I'm silly at all.

The following is another Pillow Fight argument; not be taken seriously:

There is only one way to be sure: speak to a professional psychiatrist, a professional psychologist, and a professional therapist. You can even ask a highly certified physician. Even if they conclude with all their years and degrees of experience that you don't have a phobia even after freaking out, it won't really work in your favor on this thread.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Absolutely not.

We are in agreement, then.

See.This makes it appear that you are saying that if off the bat a person says I would never have sex with a trans person that they have a phobia.I'm not saying they do or they don't .I'm just hesitant to call it a phobia and especially bigotry because that sounds more like preference.Except for you said 'for whatever reason" I'm positive there could be some reasons that would fit the definition of bigotry.But not all reasons.

Preference means to simply prefer, not completely rule out another choice. If one simply prefers cisgendered people, then it shows they are open to transgendered. But if they rule out transgendered completely, it no longer is a preference. It's complete omission of it being a choice.

See where I'm going with that? Now, why would one completely rule out somebody who is trans? By completely rule out, I mean they would never ever even consider dating somebody who is transgendered. Why would somebody make it that much of a priority to never consider dating somebody who is transgendered?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Could the person in that example explain why they wouldn't ever have sex with a trans person?

Is it a legitimate issue about their appearance (for some trans people), about other senses (like someone maybe not wanting to have sex with a current smoker if the breathe bothers them), or about the surgical results between their legs (apparently it goes unnoticed by some)? Is it a misunderstanding of the causes of transgender status, thinking that it's a personality fault or that the person is perverted? Is it a concern about harm (like someone's married, or someone has an STD, or the risks of producing a child from incest)? Or, can a person like someone's appearance, have no issues with a person's personality, but still find themselves repulsed by the idea of having sex, without calling it an irrational fear or disproportionate reaction? And what if they already had sex with a trans person without knowing and enjoyed it? What does that say about the later assessment of their repulsion towards it?

That's why I think, and others seem to think, there are multiple layers here.

-There are regular preferences, whether they make sense or not.
-Then there are strong repulsions, phobias, where the problem cannot be articulated and yet hasn't affected the actual act of sex or the person's personality. But even then, there's a polite way to handle it, a way of taking responsibility for one's own disproportionate issues.
-Then there are people with strong repulsions, that then blame the other partner, or expect society to revolve around their repulsions, rather than to take the responsibility to make sure their own repulsions are not present. That would be Tom in this case.

You put that much better than I could. :clap