Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[DallasApple]

Oh and by the way I care about Shirley's feelings too.Just the OP did not state them ..or her reaction at all to Tom's feelings and reaction.

 

[Koldo]

I think that normally, it makes sense for Shirley not to assume that Tom could be so alienated by her being a transgender as to refuse to have sex with her altogether if that fact isn't noticeable. This is particularly true in a one-night stand, where there's an implication that neither partner cares much about the other's history, medical or otherwise.

I think "omit" is a loaded word to use here, but see above.

Do you think it wouldn't happen frequently for men to refuse to have sex with her if they knew it?

Too bad for him, then, because his feeling that he was mislead doesn't mean he actually was.

He was.

 

[DallasApple]

Exactly....I'm thinking you're not seeing the obvious here. Shirley's part in the OP is that she's a prop for Tom's feelings, she's not even being considered as part of the equation. You want "balance", you say? It's not even there in the first place.

O.K well then instead of getting angry/or flabbergasted at those who answered the Op's questions as posed..stayed "on topic" ...maybe we should ask the OP why he wanted to know only what people thought about hypothetical Toms reaction and feelings???

Is the OP around???

 

[Koldo]

Exactly....I'm thinking you're not seeing the obvious here. Shirley's part in the OP is that she's a prop for Tom's feelings, she's not even being considered as part of the equation. You want "balance", you say? It's not even there in the first place.

Curiously, Galen.Iksnudnard thinks that Shirley shouldn't have to tell Tom that she is a trans woman.

It was not one of us who think differently who framed the matter that way.

 

[Breathe]

That's why I ask. Because it looked pretty harsh against Shirley and much more understanding of Tom's hostility.

Then you misinterpreted my aim.

Hey look, Breathe, I'm asking for clarification. Because you are presenting some arguments here that I disagree with, and I need to be sure I'm disagreeing and we're not just talking past each other.

To which I keep wondering why it's so important that we give that much weight to Tom's position. It's irrational. He may have felt like he slept with a man, but he didn't.

Again, that's your perspective, and mine.

Again, I ask why if the science and the understanding of transgendered people is important, that you are insisting we continue to understand Tom's POV?

So we understand WHY Tom felt that way.

So, then, do you empathize with Tom? You bring up deception on the part of Shirley, but you mentioned before that you never said she's in the wrong....so what is it?

Unfortunately, I emphasize with everyone, even people whom I dislike or make me feel physically sick. I can see reasons for people's positions even if I disagree with them. It sucks.

Shirley never deceived anybody.

Maybe Tom doesn't feel that way.
Lie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lying by omission - RationalWiki

She had a great night. So did Tom. Now Tom is really freaked out and I'm getting the picture that Tom's justified because Shirley didn't disclose on a one night stand that she used to be assigned male.

Pretty much.

If you are seeing it as an issue of lack of choice through deception by omission, then how are you not attributing responsibility on Shirley for Tom's freak out? Or are you?

No, I am not.

Please. Let's not blow this out of proportion. I called Tom a bigot. I never called you that. I'm asking if you do agree with Tom and you're taking that as an attack that I'm calling you a transphobic bigot.

Yes, I am, because of your choice of words, "In other words, transfolk need to know their place. Is that correct?" looks more like accusing me of being a transphobic bigot than a genuine question. It's deliberately emotive.

If you have a guilty conscience and are projecting because you don't want to be seen that way, that you don't want to look like the bad guy, but you really really think Tom is totally justified in his anger, that isn't my problem.

If you don't believe me, I really could not care any less than I do. I know I'm not.

But you still have not clarified what your position is.

In regards to what, exactly?
I don't agree with Tom. that's not the point.

Plus, we're in a debate. This is not wasting time. At least not for me.

I'm not a big fan of debating in general, so this is a waste of time for me.

Was Tom in the wrong for his reaction?

Neither yes nor no.
And no, I do not believe it was the 'right' reaction.

Is he transphobic because of his reaction?

No, I don't think he is necessarily. For all we know, Tom may actually work helping out trans folk. I doubt it, but still.

Do you call freaking out a simple manner of preference?

I call it a reaction some are going to have if they think they have had sex with someone who was a man, and in some cases may still see it

Does Shirley bear more responsibility than Tom due to the fact that she's trans-female?

No, but it's something she knows he does not. I think she should tell him that.

Should she assume that people are not going to want to have sex with her, and act accordingly?

I think she should let someone know just in case to avoid this possible response.

 

[Penumbra]

Because she used to be a guy.
There's a high chance that isn't going to go down well if he finds out later on.

Tom may feel like he slept with a guy. Not a girl. He may feel he was deceived by this omission. He may feel deceived by not having the option of choosing it.

But it's not a mere concept. She is still, chromosomally, a man.

See above.

See above.

Even if you disagree with his opinion, Tom felt he had sex with a guy by means of lying through omission. There is a chance Tom would not have had sex with Shirley but Tom was denied that right when Shirley did not mention it to him.

As far as Tom is concerned, Shirley lied to him.

Realize, again, that all of that can apply to race, and racism. I asked why Tom and Shirley's interaction was serious, and you presented reasons why it's serious in Tom's mind, rather than serious in reality. Racism can be serious in someone's mind, but that doesn't make it serious in real life.

As I pointed out in the thread from sources, sex is determined by multiple factors. A woman can be born with XY chromosomes, like with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. She is not "a man" in terms of chromosomes- she has chromosomes that are normally associated with males. Same with Shirley.

Tom is not objecting to anything about Shirley's appearance or personality. Instead it's a cultural taboo- homophobia extending to transphobia. He's not saying, "look I really want to have kids one day..." or "Shirley has masculine features that I'm not attracted to..." or "I could tell from her vagina that..." or anything like that. He's feel violated and deceived over invisible information. An impulsive reaction rather than a logical one. And then blaming her for not putting a qualifier on her womanhood to appease phobias in society.

I know we all have different standards but that doesn't make all standards equally valid, especially when you're not applying them equally in these cases. If a partially black woman is not ethically in the wrong for sleeping with white men and not bringing up her ancestry, why is Shirley ethically in the wrong for sleeping with a man and not bringing up her chromosomal situation? In both cases, the problem exists only in the mind of the other person, assuming that they were indeed attracted to the other person. I agree with Mystic that it's primarily ignorance or a lack of understanding of the research and experience, if Tom thinks he "slept with a man" or something like that. Simply by sleeping with another person, they are not in a commitment where they have to appease irrational and disproportionate aspects of society.

It's understandable if people don't want to sleep with men because they're not attracted to them. They're not gay. But to sleep with someone that one was attracted to, and to later freak out about it and blame her, is essentially along the lines of "cooties"- an invisible issue only in the mind.

Then I'd rather not debate with you further on this. I prefer discussion and debate for understanding each other's perspective, not pandering to an audience.

If I wanted to pander to an audience I'd join the drama group my wife teaches.

I'm not pandering to any audience. I debate to understand and to inform the person I'm speaking with, but how often do people change their opinion mid-thread? It's rare. If you say you're not going to be convinced, do I stop? I don't think necessarily so. The information may stick with the person that one is speaking with, and in addition, information may stick with the audience.

For example, I bring up Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome to the person I'm chatting with in order to make a point, and get a frubal from someone I didn't know was reading saying that he didn't know about CAIS and that it's interesting.

 

[Breathe]

Why should Shirley assume that this would come back to haunt her?

Because people are dicks.

How do we not know that Shirley wouldn't have talked about his part of her life, had the two had additional encounters?

They've already done the deed by then, though. Is telling him afterwards going to lessen 'the reveal?

His friends didn't provide Shirley the opportunity to speak for herself. They jumped in and talked to Tom.

Are you imagining it like some kind of wild, Satanic orgy? I had the impression it was two people at a party, start talking, and then they start kissing or something.

So you know, enough time to say, "Wait, wait, before we go any further -- you know I was born a man, right? Do you still want to continue?"

If he said yes, all good.
If he said no, she saved herself embarrassment and a LOT of hassle.

I understand how difficult and embarrassing and so on it would be for Shirley, and I'm aware of how people treat transfolk. For years, some people used to say "How's Clouise?" (Clive - Louise) and "Is it keeping well".

... but would someone really want the risk of getting a shed load of abuse for about an hour or two's knocking boots?

What if Tom spent a considerable amount of time in prison but got his life together? What if it was something that he was incredibly sensitive about? Let's say he had been incarcerated for something awful in his past. Not really something that he feels comfortable discussing upon his first encounter with a hot lady. That's something that he might bring up later.

That's probably something I'd bring up if I were in Tom's shoes.
...Which would probably explain why Mrs Palm would probably end up being my faithful companion.

I totally understand this. We can't fault Tom for his feelings and views and according to the second scnenario presented, Tom and Shirley did okay in a platonic capacity.

I don't think we can fault Tom OR Shirley for their feelings.
Feelings are emotional. You can't rationalize them.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Unfortunately? Baby steps.It can't be forcibly crammed down throats.Or shouted into people.Look at the progress (and how long it took) just for regular ole gays and lesbians to gain some respect and some legal rights.Yeah that sucks..Wish we could skip over (fold time) and all be arrived..But the reality is (as history shows) its not realistic.And transexuals IMHO are even harder to understand.For your average person to grasp.+ there just aren't as many .

C'mon, girlfriend. You of all people should know better than anybody that nobody really listens to "nice girls" when it comes to feminist topics. Who gets rowdy when it comes to women's rights, hm?

Why should trans and queer folk sit quietly in a corner and ask for permission to speak when there is active discrimination? It takes saying some very uncomfortable things, and calling out bigotry when it does in fact occur. I get what you're saying about education is necessary, but the information has been spelled out over and over and over and over and over again in this very thread about the science behind transgendered individuals, and it still is glossed over in favor of understanding Tom's feelings that he might have felt deceived, misled, lied to, and that he slept with a dude.....and that he was totally justified in those feelings and that he's NOT some big meanie bigot monster.

I mean, seriously. We have folks that refuse to give credibility to the decades of research on trans-folk, call somebody like Shirley a man when she isn't, think that's not an insult, that it's a matter of fact, and then turn around and see Tom's reaction as being psychologically sound and reasonable.

Criminy, who doesn't expect a trans person to become offended at such remarks?

I remember when Smoke was here, and how he grew tired of the homophobia that he saw everywhere. It's frustrating, but he said something that stuck with me. Education is important, but like Smoke had stated about his own journey and his aging, I'm not getting any younger myself. And trans-folk are still going to work, going to school, and just trying to live their lives like everybody else.

From a queer persons perspective, it may sound exciting that the state I live in is close to legalizing same sex marriage. At this time, however, it still means that it's not a reality right now. Same sex partners STILL have to wait in my state. They STILL have to travel elsewhere to get a marriage license. And they STILL cannot be legally recognized as married if they return to their place of residence in my state.

So, yes, I come from a perspective where if I were with a woman and living here in Illinois, I'm legally discriminated against, and it gets really tiresome to hear over and over again to just be patient. As tired as *I'm* getting of the B.S. with legal and cultural discrimination, I'm putting myself in the position of trans-folk and seeing just how crappy they've got it.

 

[Penumbra]

Unfortunately? Baby steps.It can't be forcibly crammed down throats.Or shouted into people.Look at the progress (and how long it took) just for regular ole gays and lesbians to gain some respect and some legal rights.Yeah that sucks..Wish we could skip over (fold time) and all be arrived..But the reality is (as history shows) its not realistic.And transexuals IMHO are even harder to understand.For your average person to grasp.+ there just aren't as many .

Shirley didn't cram any concept down Tom's throat.

Two people that were attracted to each other slept together. She has a medical history that did not affect their night for Tom to notice. He found out later and freaked out, thinking she should have put a qualifier on her womanhood for him, that he's entitled to that. There was no aspect of their interaction that could have harmed Tom like with HIV or anything.

And this thread isn't forcing anything down anyone's throats either. It's in an ethics and morality section of a forum asking about the ethics and morality of Shirley and Tom, and people are presenting their views, with various levels of evidence and reasoning. A thread like this can make people think about what they have not previously taken the time to think about, which is one aspect of how social norms change.

 

[Poeticus]

**Dear OP (Galen)**
​

Can you please add insights into Shirley's feelings and all that other jazz so we can get better insights into Shirley's situation? Please?



*​

 

[DallasApple]

Why should trans and queer folk sit quietly in a corner and ask for permission to speak when there is active discrimination?

I never said that.I also think its a little bit different when you are talking about someone being discriminate with who they personally want to have sex with and other types of discrimination .If Tom had refused Shirley employment..or to rent her an apartment because he knew she was trans that a whole other ball of yarn..Or if he had retaliated and beat her or raped her because she "asked for it" again ..whole other ball a yarn.At least to me.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Then you misinterpreted my aim.

Again, that's your perspective, and mine.

Fair enough. This is why I asked.

So we understand WHY Tom felt that way.

I approach it similarly. But perhaps I'm expanding on the cultural conditioning rather than Tom's emotions as being real and valid just because he felt them.

Unfortunately, I emphasize with everyone, even people whom I dislike or make me feel physically sick. I can see reasons for people's positions even if I disagree with them. It sucks.

Yikes! What do you do if you're in a baby nursery and you've got dozen babies and toddlers all crying at once? Does your head explode?

Maybe Tom doesn't feel that way.
Lie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Lying by omission - RationalWiki

We all know Tom's position. Now, is it reasonable? I argue that it isn't.

Yes, I am, because of your choice of words, "In other words, transfolk need to know their place. Is that correct?" looks more like accusing me of being a transphobic bigot than a genuine question. It's deliberately emotive.

I know. I play rough, too. I admit to being caustic and provocative. It's more dynamic and colorful.

But I appreciate now more clarification in your position. It helps, thanks.

If you don't believe me, I really could not care any less than I do. I know I'm not.

Good for you.

In regards to what, exactly?
I don't agree with Tom. that's not the point.

Well, you answered earlier that you have a tendency to empathize with people who make you sick. So, I understand better now.

I'm not a big fan of debating in general, so this is a waste of time for me.

So...no pillow fight afterward? Dang.

Neither yes nor no.
And no, I do not believe it was the 'right' reaction.

No, I don't think he is necessarily. For all we know, Tom may actually work helping out trans folk. I doubt it, but still.

I call it a reaction some are going to have if they think they have had sex with someone who was a man, and in some cases may still see it

No, but it's something she knows he does not. I think she should tell him that.

Okay, thank you very much for taking the time to embellish on where you yourself are coming from. I appreciate it, because now I understand you better.

I think she should let someone know just in case to avoid this possible response.

I disagree. But I'm a rascal and prefer to against the grain. I think it's more honest to stand against prejudice and bigotry, and to live freely.

 

[DallasApple]

Shirley didn't cram any concept down Tom's throat.

I NEVER said she did.As far as I know she merely had sex with him .Now my words are being completely twisted.My post was in reaction to the sort of angry mob reaction to Tom's feelings and reactions on this thread.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I never said that.I also think its a little bit different when you are talking about someone being discriminate with who they personally want to have sex with and other types of discrimination .If Tom had refused Shirley employment..or to rent her an apartment because he knew she was trans that a whole other ball of yarn..Or if he had retaliated and beat her or raped her because she "asked for it" again ..whole other ball a yarn.At least to me.

I know. And I disagree. Preference is one thing. But if Tom is freaking out and thinking he slept with a guy, he is coming from a place of ignorance and bigotry.

I also was specific earlier when I stated legal AND cultural discrimination. You point it out often when it comes to women's rights legally and cultural indoctrination about ****-shaming. Sure, legal discrimination against women and ****-shaming are two various phenomena of sexism, but it's all sexist, nonetheless. I'm bringing in that parallel because of the cultural indoctrination that trans-folk aren't really the same kind of people cis-folk are, that sleeping with them might give somebody the "trans-cooties".

Nobody is saying that people shouldn't have preferences. But why freak out? Is it really because trans-folk are creepy and weird and freaks of nature? Or do freakouts occur because people have been indoctrinated to think that trans-folks are freaks? Preferences don't evoke such visceral reactions.

 

[Poeticus]

So...no pillow fight afterward? Dang.

B-b-b-b-but, can you and me and Sunstone and Penumbra and Dallas and many others pillow fight? P-p-p-p-please!?!?! Also, can we please wear togas while we pillow fight?!?

 

[DallasApple]

She has a medical history that did not affect their night for Tom to notice.

Here is what I'm trying to say..DEVIL"S ADVOCATE...Tom (as well as many others ) may not see the fact she was born with male parts and had a sex change operation as simply her "medical history".Its not that "simple" for most.Heck for the majority.So not understanding what is happening ..and the confusion ..screaming BIGOT is not the answer.

Just yesterday I learned a LOT (with your help by the way and thank you ) about CIAS.It took me a few years and actually knowing a lot of homosexuals to "know and believe" that's how they are BORN...How I could do that was "empathising" but anyone who critisized me or accused me of being a bigot or homophobe would have not helped me 'understand".

You cant RUSH people to understanding who have it all backwards already or tend to see in black and white and are very comfortable there..that's ALL I'm saying.

I actually feel like I'm getting attacked on this thread to be honest.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

B-b-b-b-but, can you and me and Sunstone and Penumbra and Dallas and many others pillow fight? P-p-p-p-please!?!?! Also, can we please wear togas while we pillow fight?!?

Woo hoo! I'm up for it! I'll bring the caramel, too! :bounce

 

[Poeticus]

Hehehehe.

 

[DallasApple]

But why freak out?

Exactly WHY???????? That's what I was trying to contemplate.Beyond "bigot".Maybe I have more hope in humanities ability to adapt than you do.Maybe I'm naive but that is what I was considering .WHY did he feel that way? Then its "no one cares about Shirley's feelings".

It doesn't "work" to just tell someone "you are wrong for freaking out that's ridiculous" ..If my child( yes analogy of child) says they don't want to walk in a dark room ...I say WHY?They say because I'm afraid of monsters ..I don't say that's moronic there is no such things as monsters and shove them into the dark room and say get over your self ..

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Here is what I'm trying to say..DEVIL"S ADVOCATE...Tom (as well as many others ) may not see the fact she was born with male parts and had a sex change operation as simply her "medical history".Its not that "simple" for most.Heck for the majority.So not understanding what is happening ..and the confusion ..screaming BIGOT is not the answer.

Nobody screamed BIGOT. Information was given repeatedly while attention was given to how Shirley isn't really a woman. That position is not based on research, but presumptions and cultural conditioning.

Just yesterday I learned a LOT (with your help by the way and thank you ) about CIAS.It took me a few years and actually knowing a lot of homosexuals to "know and believe" that's how they are BORN...How I could do that was "empathising" but anyone who critisized me or accused me of being a bigot or homophobe would have not helped me 'understand".

I get that, now put the shoe on the other foot and come from a position like mine where I might be educating you, and for a number of years you continued to say things that were uninformed or unintentionally discriminatory. You may not have meant it, but if for a few years you continued to say such things, patience can really wear thin.

You cant RUSH people to understanding who have it all backwards already or tend to see in black and white and are very comfortable there..that's ALL I'm saying.

I don't expect people to change. But I don't have to shut my mouth, either. I'm free to speak my mind as much as everyone else.

I actually feel like I'm getting attacked on this thread to be honest.

Have a pillow to strike back (it's more fun). We're invited to a pillow fight after the debate. I'm bringing caramel.