Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[McBell]

I think ,well I know..we have two separate conversations going on .Tom and Shirley's specific situation,a one night stand and whether she should have assumed it might be relevant to him.And is a cis male (in general ) an irrational bigot if he chooses not to have sex with a trans female if he is aware of that.

Based upon the OP it appears to me that Tom is upset because his one night stand with Shirley was not what he thought/wanted/expected it to be.

 

[McBell]

Not at all. It is explained on that paragraph why.

That paragraph is nothing more than an attempt to shift the "blame" for Toms irresponsibility to Shirley.

 

[Koldo]

Explain to me the reasoning, then, of the assertion that Shirley should assume a large percentage of men do not wish to have sex with a transgendered female. It's essentially the exact same reasoning.

She should assume so because it happens to be the case.

If it is the same reasoning, you are essentially saying my view is transphobic because it happens to be case. Is that it?

 

[Flankerl]

How is she to know which group you are in unless you tell her?

"How is he to know which group you are in unless you tell him?"

Thats the fun part about intimacy, its not a one way street.

 

[McBell]

Why is it perfectly fine for Tom, in his over eagerness to get laid, to not have to ask about specifics but it is not fine for Shirley, in her over eagerness to get laid, to not disclose everything that "should be obvious" to her, assuming she is a "reasonable" person?

 

[Koldo]

That paragraph is nothing more than an attempt to shift the "blame" for Toms irresponsibility to Shirley.

You should read it once again then.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Oh no he/she has every right for his/her own sexual preferences.

Doesnt mean that Tom has to oblige to it.


On one hand you are going on about how evil society is but then dont realise how society is.

Evil? I said transphobic and cis-normative. I would like to see a more welcoming society to transgendered and intersexed individuals.

If you see a random person that looks like a female human being you dont assume: "well obviously this person is a former guy, thats exactly my type"
The chance for Tom to meet such a person vary from place to place but if this didnt took place in a big city or Commiefornia(or Transland uh Thailand) then its simply an exception to the rule.
You arent afraid to leave your home just because there is a slim mathematical possibility that a train might derail and splatter you across that specific spot on that specific street right next to the railway.

People in this thread attacking Tom act like 25 to 50% of all people are transgender and that Tom should have obviously anticipated such an event.



But thats stupid.

LOL I don't know how many times I can say this, but I'll say it again:

Tom's overreaction, and his idea that he was misled, lied to, deceived, by Shirley...when he thoroughly enjoyed himself with a woman on a one night stand....is based on ignorance and phobia. He suddenly wondered if he slept with a man (untrue), and he also placed a responsibility on Shirley for his own choices based on an imaginary penis.

I don't find the motivation to show compassion and inclusion of transgendered people into everyday society to be a mark of stupidity. Such a shame that it's thought of that way, though.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Do you know of any culture where it wouldn't happen frequently?

I said I don't have enough info one way or the other, so this question is kind of trying to shift the burden of proof.

It speaks volumes that a culture where this wouldn't happen frequently is assumed to be the exception to the rule, though. Now I know why gender minority rights are constantly compared to how the fight for rights of racial minorities used to be.

It does make a difference to the person perceiving the difference. :sarcastic

I never said otherwise. That doesn't mean the difference being perceived actually exists or isn't indicative of bigotry, however.

 

[Koldo]

Why is it perfectly fine to tom, in his over eagerness to get laid, to not have to ask about specifics but it is not fine for Shirley, in her eagerness to get laid, to not disclose everything that "shold be obvious" to her assuming she is a "reasonable" person?

It has already been explained.
Because there are many guys who wouldn't have sex with her if they knew she is a trans woman, and because it is reasonable to assume she knew it.

 

[DallasApple]

His overreaction is an indicator of a phobia. The expectation that Shirley takes responsibility for his phobia is why I submit his position is also rooted in bigotry.

But this topic has expanded beyond just Tom and his reaction.Its been implied over and over that a cis male who has a preference to only having sex with cis females it must also be rooted in ignorance /irrational beliefs and he too is surely a bigot.Because it doesn't seem like there is according to some any rational, non phobic ,non bigoted excuse to not consider a trans female as a sexual partner.

 

[McBell]

"How is he to know which group you are in unless you tell him?"

Thats the fun part about intimacy, its not a one way street.

yet it seems to me that some people in this thread are posting as though Tom is not the least bit responsible for his predicament.

 

[McBell]

It has already been explained.
Because there are many guys who wouldn't have sex with her if they knew she is a trans woman, and because it is reasonable to assume she knew it.

And yet it is not their responsibility to make sure who, what, etc. they are having sex with?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

She should assume so because it happens to be the case.

Hence, my argument that Shirley should know her place. Seems like you agree with that assessment.

If it is the same reasoning, you are essentially saying my view is transphobic because it happens to be case. Is that it?

I call it as I see it. If you're taking this personally, that's not my aim. I'm specific in what I see to be conceptually problematic for society as a whole, and in this case, for transgendered people.

 

[DallasApple]

No, that he freaks out upon discovering he had sex with a trans-female. Let's get the facts straight.

Yeah I get it Tom freaked out ..had a temper tantrum and blamed Shirley for his feelings.

But I'm not hallucinating ..its been suggested that ANY cis male who specifically prefers to only have sex with cis females..IOW would not have sex with a trans female ...has to be an ignorant trans phobic bigot .Like there is no rational reason for him to not want to have sex with a trans female.

 

[Koldo]

I said I don't have enough info one way or the other, so this question is kind of trying to shift the burden of proof.

It speaks volumes that a culture where this wouldn't happen frequently is assumed to be the exception to the rule, though. Now I know why gender minority rights are constantly compared to how the fight for rights of racial minorities used to be.

I was just making sure whether you could provide information one way or the other.

We could make a poll about it. How about it?
I have already suggested this before.

I never said otherwise. That doesn't mean the difference being perceived actually exists or isn't indicative of bigotry, however.

This is starting to get old.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

yet it seems to me that some people in this thread are posting as though Tom is not the least bit responsible for his predicament.

[sarcasm]

Well, he's not responsible because it's normal to expect one night stands to go the way Tom wanted it to go. And it's because it's normal for cis-people to not want to have sex with trans-people.

It's called a preference, Mestemia. Did you not get the memo? Tom's preferences are normal. And Shirley should know better than to let Tom believe she's normal.

[/sarcasm]

 

[Koldo]

And yet it is not their responsibility to make sure who, what, etc. they are having sex with?

You can't possibly make sure to an absolute degree. You know that, right?
But, regardless, i never said Tom was not responsible for his choice.

 

[Koldo]

Hence, my argument that Shirley should know her place. Seems like you agree with that assessment.

If by 'know her place' you mean what i said back then, then yes. I already said so. I wouldn't call it that way, but you are free to do so.

I call it as I see it. If you're taking this personally, that's not my aim. I'm specific in what I see to be conceptually problematic for society as a whole, and in this case, for transgendered people.

That's not an argument.
You see it as transphobia, you call it transphobia.
Not much to argue about.

 

[McBell]

You can't possibly make sure to an absolute degree. You know that, right?

Yes, i do know that.
However, that does not excuse the lack of attempt...

But, regardless, i never said Tom was not responsible for his choice.

fair enough.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I was just making sure whether you could provide information one way or the other.

We could make a poll about it. How about it?
I have already suggested this before.

I doubt that would really represent anything besides the general preference on RF, so I don't see much point in it.

This is starting to get old.

That's bound to happen when it has to be repeated over and over. I think it's getting old, too, because I thought it was clear why I said it the first time.