Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
I was talking about myself and bi-phobia
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Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?
- Thread starter Galen.Iksnudnard
- Start date
I was talking about myself and bi-phobia
How much does one really expect to know about a sexual partner they just met that night? really.
If you want sensitive back information about a person before you sleep with them, probably it's best to get to know them for a while first. Otherwise, you know you could find out just about anything about them that you don't like later.
If you want sensitive back information about a person before you sleep with them, probably it's best to get to know them for a while first. Otherwise, you know you could find out just about anything about them that you don't like later.
illykitty
RF's pet cat
Interesting... I'm bisexual but never experienced bi phobia. Honestly it wouldn't have bothered me if you would still think this. Nor if some other people would. It's ignorant but I don't care if some people don't want to be in a relationship with me. Nor do I care if people, out of preference, would date only straight or gay. It's their own insecurity. However I feel calling them bigots or phobic too harsh. They are maybe ignorant and/or insecure.
I've had to deal with rejection in many areas of my life for other reasons, so I don't know maybe that's why it doesn't bother me.
However one thing that does annoy me is assumption that bi = threesome or open relationships. But it's just an annoyance and maybe stereotype.
I think this thread would be more interesting if we asked what people would do instead of Tom.
If I was in Tom's shoes, I wouldn't freak out, maybe shocked or surprised, however it's hard to tell because I wouldn't have a one night. If she was attractive and had great personality I would want to continue the relationship but usually my preference is cis gender.
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InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
I wouldnt have casual sex to begin with.
But assuming that I had woken up to find this had occurred and that I had not been drunk or drugged or something, I would simply think I had committed a huge mistake (in no small part because I do not think casual sex is appropriate for me) I would also likely find it incredibly awkward to be around Shirely (casual sex with acquaintances is likely to be even more troublesome, especially if not entirely satisfied by the process and its aftermath) and would be unlikely to want to repeat the experience. I think I would feel conflicted about whether or not she was partly to blame, but given my highly internal locus of control and my habit of self depreciation and blame, I would likely conclude that it is my fault (and that she might have made the assumption that it would not matter to me based on my usual accepting outlook or at the absolute least tolerance on most issues) - and would still want nothing to do with Shirely in terms of sexual relations in the future, I would also likely feel incredibly uncomfortable in her presence due to my regret of the previous encounter and awkwardness about how one interacts under such a circumstance.
And Ill reiterate my earlier question since they are being posed: How would you feel if a partner asks you if you are transgendered?
I would feel as if they were implying that there was something significantly unnatural about my appearance, something which would indicate that I had had extensive cosmetic procedures which had not been particularly successful and thus had caused them to believe that my current appearance was the result of surgery, potentially from a sex change (or extensive burns, witness protection, etc)
But assuming that I had woken up to find this had occurred and that I had not been drunk or drugged or something, I would simply think I had committed a huge mistake (in no small part because I do not think casual sex is appropriate for me) I would also likely find it incredibly awkward to be around Shirely (casual sex with acquaintances is likely to be even more troublesome, especially if not entirely satisfied by the process and its aftermath) and would be unlikely to want to repeat the experience. I think I would feel conflicted about whether or not she was partly to blame, but given my highly internal locus of control and my habit of self depreciation and blame, I would likely conclude that it is my fault (and that she might have made the assumption that it would not matter to me based on my usual accepting outlook or at the absolute least tolerance on most issues) - and would still want nothing to do with Shirely in terms of sexual relations in the future, I would also likely feel incredibly uncomfortable in her presence due to my regret of the previous encounter and awkwardness about how one interacts under such a circumstance.
And Ill reiterate my earlier question since they are being posed: How would you feel if a partner asks you if you are transgendered?
I would feel as if they were implying that there was something significantly unnatural about my appearance, something which would indicate that I had had extensive cosmetic procedures which had not been particularly successful and thus had caused them to believe that my current appearance was the result of surgery, potentially from a sex change (or extensive burns, witness protection, etc)
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If you don't mind clarifying, where do you draw the line between personal preference and bigotry? I ask because you seemed to agree with posts saying that it is transphobic to reject someone only because they are transgendered and that there's a difference between personal preference and transphobia, respectively. But couldn't personal preference be rooted in bigotry, too?
I apologize if I have misunderstood anything. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about your stance here.
InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
I view it as potentially multiple subject categorisations of an individual (presumably) and some corresponding place on the phile-phobe spectrum of attraction to aversion; both extreme ends of the spectrum are likely to include unhealthy characteristics and behaviours. The point at which some level of aversion is considered bigotry seems entirely subjective; as does the point at which some level of attraction is considered creepy. Of course, when dealing with paraphilia, these subjective levels seem to alter as a result of the deemed commonness of the preference category. Likewise, there are other factors that might affect the designation and perception thereof such as it's legality, interpersonal effects and so forth.
As to your question, I think when the attraction to the category is so strong that there is an aversion to those that are not within that category it would be a kind of psuedo-phobic reaction and thus might be considered potentially bigoted in some respects (though once again this determination seems like it would be largely subjective).
As to your question, I think when the attraction to the category is so strong that there is an aversion to those that are not within that category it would be a kind of psuedo-phobic reaction and thus might be considered potentially bigoted in some respects (though once again this determination seems like it would be largely subjective).
Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
I understand not every bi person in the world would be bothered by that, but I think it is phobic not to recognize bi-sexuality or even homosexuality as a valid sexual orientation.
I draw the line as the reasoning behind the omission. It can be orientation. It can be a phobia. It can be bigotry. IMO there is a difference between phobia and preference.
I personally keep it very simple. Preference to me means that one simply prefers....not RULE OUT COMPLETELY. I find that to be a very important distinction.
If a person is straight, only sleeping with a person of the opposite sex is not a preference. Because one is omitting an entire gender completely. That doesn't mean one is phobic. It means that it is far beyond preference because one isn't just "preferring" one sex over another.
If a person is straight, and completely omits all bisexual people, that is not a preference. If that person were to freak out if they discovered they DID sleep with a bisexual, THAT'S a phobia because of the sudden onslaught of anxiety. If that person were to believe the bisexual should have disclosed that information and feels justified in his or her anger, I find that to be a marker of bigotry.
What I disagree with is the attempt to use the word "preference" to mean whatever one wants it to mean, and especially conflating the word to include a person who would react like Tom would in the OP. If I were to talk with Tom, my guess is it would look something like this:
"I'm so ****ed off! That he/she/it should have said something, because me and a lot of other people would totally be ****ed off at Shirley. Transgendered people need to realize that simple fact of life. How dare Shirley not say anything!"
"Why are you so ****ed off?"
"Because Shirley lied to me. I was violated. I didn't get to have a choice in the matter."
"But you DID. You slept with Shirley."
"Yeah, but I feel like I slept with a DUDE."
"But you didn't. Why don't you learn about transgenderism? Your reaction is stemming from a lot of anxiety and anger. You're also assigning responsibility to Shirley that you yourself as a cis feel entitled to without you being responsible for anything remotely close. We live in a cis-normative society, which at it's default is transphobic and bigoted. So, relax, and if you had a good time, live with that. But let's learn a bit so you don't feel so horrible about your decisions."
"HOW DARE YOU CALL ME BIGOTED!!! I'M NOT BIGOTED!!!! I'M NOT GOING AND LYNCHING SHIRLEY OR ANYTHING!! I'M NOT BEATING SHIRLEY UP!! I JUST WANTED TO KNOW FIRST SO I CAN MAKE SURE I NEVER SLEEP WITH A TRANNIE EVER!!!!! DON'T CALL ME NAMES!!!!"
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.
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Yeah....That's not a preference. Tom isn't just operating from a stance of Shirley isn't his first choice. Tom is full of anxiety. That's phobia. And Tom feels entitlted to information about Shirley that Shirley should understand that she must operate from, and is angered that she didn't disclose this information with an unwritten rule. It's like expecting Shirley to walk around with a patch, a sign around her neck, or the scarlet letter "T" so people can decide how they want to interact with her.
That last statement is a marker of bigotry.
No problem. There's a lot of posts here, and I also answered a number of different people approaching in many different ways.
Here's a great example of preference. I'm polyamorous. But right now I prefer working on my business than dating. Doesn't mean that I am omitting the idea of ever dating again, but right now I prefer to work on the business. My business is my choice in the time being.
That's a preference.
Not what Tom exhibited in the OP. Not what people say about "I would never under any circumstance sleep with any transgendered person ever ever ever." That's not a preference. It's something else, and the reasoning will point to the motivation, IMO.
Thanks for the clarification. That helps a lot.
I agree with all of your points.
Is someone repelled by sleeping with people shorter than 5-feet tall a bigot? I mean, physically repelled by it? Perhaps because they are uncomfortable with doing it with someone short enough to be a minor? Or whatever else? SUch as, perhaps, people who are drama queens, hysterics, mentally unstable, or whatever else.
If they aren't a bigot, then how is is bigoted for them to want to sleep only with people who had not had the built-in psychic trauma that made it necessary for a change of sex?
Some of you are accusing people of bigotry because they ahve a strong preference for whom they will choose to interpenetrate body parts. It is unacceptable.
For the sake of all that is good people, step back and look at yourselves before you keep on with your petty overcomplexed accusations of bigotry in others.
If they aren't a bigot, then how is is bigoted for them to want to sleep only with people who had not had the built-in psychic trauma that made it necessary for a change of sex?
Some of you are accusing people of bigotry because they ahve a strong preference for whom they will choose to interpenetrate body parts. It is unacceptable.
For the sake of all that is good people, step back and look at yourselves before you keep on with your petty overcomplexed accusations of bigotry in others.
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Poeticus
| abhyAvartin |
Is a one night stand a part of this?
Repulsed you mean? Physically repulsed by the idea of sleeping with somebody shorter than 5 feet tall? Well, let's look at what wiki says about bigotry:
Bigotry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yeah. I think the definition will suffice in your example. And by the way, I'm 4'11".
Look at the reasoning behind the omission, IMO. Look for the reasoning and/or the emotional reaction.
I'm saying Tom's reaction is rooted in ignorance and transphobia. I also never accused any PERSON of bigotry, but just a perspective. I can't speak for others, but I haven't seen anybody accuse anybody else of bigotry. Though I will suggest that people will project their own egos onto the perspective that certainly is under scrutiny. That I can't and won't control or have any responsibility for. I'll attack ideas, not people.
What would qualify as bigotry against transgendered people, in your opinion? Like the minimum qualification? Do they HAVE to be beaten and murdered for their perpetrators to be finally fairly accused of bigotry? Is being accused of bigotry as harmful as the impact of bigotry itself?
Hey, y'all...this just might extend the thread another 50 pages. Anyone wanting to place some bets here?
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Wherenextcolumbus
Well-Known Member
I think this has already been addressed
As a reward for your thoughtful & nuanced (really) post, I offer this....Repulsed you mean? Physically repulsed by the idea of sleeping with somebody shorter than 5 feet tall? Well, let's look at what wiki says about bigotry:
Bigotry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yeah. I think the definition will suffice in your example. And by the way, I'm 4'11".
Look at the reasoning behind the omission, IMO. Look for the reasoning and/or the emotional reaction.
I'm saying Tom's reaction is rooted in ignorance and transphobia. I also never accused any PERSON of bigotry, but just a perspective. I can't speak for others, but I haven't seen anybody accuse anybody else of bigotry. Though I will suggest that people will project their own egos onto the perspective that certainly is under scrutiny. That I can't and won't control or have any responsibility for. I'll attack ideas, not people.
What would qualify as bigotry against transgendered people, in your opinion? Like the minimum qualification? Do they HAVE to be beaten and murdered for their perpetrators to be finally fairly accused of bigotry? Is being accused of bigotry as harmful as the impact of bigotry itself?
Hey, y'all...this just might extend the thread another 50 pages. Anyone wanting to place some bets here?
[youtube]1NvgLkuEtkA[/youtube]
Randy Newman - Short People - YouTube
My first girlfriend was 4'11".
Poeticus
| abhyAvartin |
Hey, y'all...this just might extend the thread another 50 pages. Anyone wanting to place some bets here?
Namaste, Mystic:
Only if you treat me to another Long Island Iced Tea.
It continues until everyone cries "Uncle!", or they get bored....& then 6 months later it starts all over again.
Leftimies
Dwelling in the Principle