Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[ZooGirl02]

Consider the following situation:

Two people are at a social gathering. One, call her Shirley, is an transgender woman, the other is a straight cis-male, call him Tom. Tom approaches Shirley, believing that she is a cis-female. They flirt and Tom takes Shirley back to his place where they end up in bed together, and eventually consent to intercourse.

Later on, Tom learns through a mutual friend, John, that Shirley is in fact a transgender woman, and was assigned male gender at birth. After that, Tom is angry, and refuses to approach Shirley. He claims he feels "violated" and was was “deceived”, and it was “unethical”, because if he’d known she was trans, he would not have consented to intercourse.

My questions:

1. Was Tom wrong to suddenly reject Shirley on the basis that she is transgender?
2. Should Shirley be obligated to tell Tom her birth gender before consent?
3. Is it wrong for cisgender individuals to only prefer other cisgender individuals, to the exclusion of transgender people?

If you could explain why you answered the way that you did, that would be helpful.

Also you could imagine the situation mentioned above in reverse, but I don't think the answer should be different.

For number 1, I would say no because everyone has their own personal preferences. If someone prefers not to have sexual intercourse with someone who is transgender then that is their sexual preference and that should be respected just the same as someone who is attracted to the same sex should have their sexual preference respected.

As for number 2, I don't think that she should be obligated to tell him her gender identity but I do feel that it would be best if she did so. I believe in honesty when it comes to sexual relations.

As for number 3, I would again say no because I do not feel that a personal preference as regarding sexual intercourse should be considered moral or immoral. To me, it is morally neutral. There is nothing immoral, in my beliefs, about being attracted to the same sex just as there is nothing immoral, in my beliefs, about being attracted to the opposite sex or only to cis-gender individuals.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

1) Not necessarily

2) Its more of a personal choice.

3) Not necesarily.

For number one I say no because I know personally I would not be able to have a sexual relationship with a woman who was once a man. In my mind she is still a man even if she has had the procedure ect ect ect. She still has a Y chormosome and her genitals are simply surgically changed.

I as a heterosexual cannot get over this. I cannot feel attracted to someone of the same genetic gender no mater what their "legal" gender is. No more than a homosexual can simply start being attracted to the opposite sex.


Numbe two is really complex as it involves personal choices. I think that it would be better for them to be upfront about things but hiding it also has its advantages. A lot of potential relationships would be ruined by the foreknowledge of it. But at some point I think it should be expected to be shared information.


The third one is along the lines of the first. If I choose to see them as their genetic gender is it wrong of me to not be attracted to them? I have nothing against transgender people. I wish the best for them. I simply cannot have coitus with them as I would a biological woman.

 

[roger1440]

Just because something may quack like a duck, walk like a duck and swim like a duck, that does not necessarily make it a duck. Shirley is not a woman, therefore it is deception. The same would apply if Shirley was an android.


The primary purpose for the sex act is procreation. We are hard wired to seek out the opposite sex for intercourse. Instinctive within each of us is the individuals will to survive, to protect our family and or clan and to seek immortality through our offspring.


Please watch this video. It's answers from the other side.
[youtube]58gbmmtoB8A[/youtube]
Kara

 

[Darkness]

Just because something may quack like a duck, walk like a duck and swim like a duck, that does not necessarily make it a duck. Shirley is not a woman, therefore it is deception. The same would apply if Shirley was an android.


The primary purpose for the sex act is procreation. We are hard wired to seek out the opposite sex for intercourse. Instinctive within each of us is the individuals will to survive, to protect our family and or clan and to seek immortality through our offspring.

There is simply no reason to believe that we are hard-wired to seek out the opposite sex. Freud appears to have had it right in that we are wired for polymorphous perversity.

 

[Ouroboros]

There is simply no reason to believe that we are hard-wired to seek out the opposite sex.

No reason? No reason what so ever? Some studies say that we're not hard-wired, and some say that we're most definitely are. So I wouldn't go so far to say that there are no reasons at all to believe that we could be hardwired. People could give you quite a bunch of studies showing it, so they would have tons of reasons. You could argue that you disagree with those studies, but that's a different point than "there is simply no reason..." What I'm saying is, don't brush this question away as something simple.

 

[Goddess Ashtara]

Our bodies are male or female, but are spirits are neither male nor female. Our mind is neither male nor female.

About the hypothetical transgender situation, I suggest she keep her secret. Women aren't very honest about our sex life with men anyway. Nor should we feel obligated to be. Most guys don't wanna know about our orgy experiences, sex rituals, threesomes, or other crazy **** like that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As a transsexual myself, I feel that honesty is always the best policy. I let everyone know that I'm trans. If they have a problem with it after that, that's not my problem even though it does hurt. I can understand wanting to "move past" being a transsexual but you really can't. You will always be a transsexual. Even after having chest surgery, genital reconstruction, facial feminization surgery, tracheal shave, etc. you will have to take hormones for the rest of your life and you will always lack a womb, ovaries or testicles and prostate. That reality is unbearable sometimes, but that is reality.

Another thing that's painful is that people often start treating you differently after they find out you are trans. Like on the Internet, if you're talking to people who don't know you're trans, they will treat you a certain way. Once you tell them or they otherwise find out, they will all of a sudden treat you like you're not a "real" man or woman. They will treat you as something different and you feel like you don't belong.

So you can't win by being honest and you can't win by hiding it. Being transsexual in this society is a curse. You wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy. I hate it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

As a transsexual myself, I feel that honesty is always the best policy. I let everyone know that I'm trans. If they have a problem with it after that, that's not my problem even though it does hurt. I can understand wanting to "move past" being a transsexual but you really can't. You will always be a transsexual. Even after having chest surgery, genital reconstruction, facial feminization surgery, tracheal shave, etc. you will have to take hormones for the rest of your life and you will always lack a womb, ovaries or testicles and prostate. That reality is unbearable sometimes, but that is reality.

Another thing that's painful is that people often start treating you differently after they find out you are trans. Like on the Internet, if you're talking to people who don't know you're trans, they will treat you a certain way. Once you tell them or they otherwise find out, they will all of a sudden treat you like you're not a "real" man or woman. They will treat you as something different and you feel like you don't belong.

So you can't win by being honest and you can't win by hiding it. Being transsexual in this society is a curse. You wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy. I hate it.

This is all I got right now ----->

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This is all I got right now ----->

Thank you.

 

[Darkness]

No reason? No reason what so ever? Some studies say that we're not hard-wired, and some say that we're most definitely are. So I wouldn't go so far to say that there are no reasons at all to believe that we could be hardwired. People could give you quite a bunch of studies showing it, so they would have tons of reasons. You could argue that you disagree with those studies, but that's a different point than "there is simply no reason..." What I'm saying is, don't brush this question away as something simple.

One could conceivable argue that we have a hardwired sexual orientation, but to say that that orientation is always heterosexual is quite absurd.

As a transsexual myself, I feel that honesty is always the best policy. I let everyone know that I'm trans. If they have a problem with it after that, that's not my problem even though it does hurt. I can understand wanting to "move past" being a transsexual but you really can't. You will always be a transsexual. Even after having chest surgery, genital reconstruction, facial feminization surgery, tracheal shave, etc. you will have to take hormones for the rest of your life and you will always lack a womb, ovaries or testicles and prostate. That reality is unbearable sometimes, but that is reality.

Another thing that's painful is that people often start treating you differently after they find out you are trans. Like on the Internet, if you're talking to people who don't know you're trans, they will treat you a certain way. Once you tell them or they otherwise find out, they will all of a sudden treat you like you're not a "real" man or woman. They will treat you as something different and you feel like you don't belong.

So you can't win by being honest and you can't win by hiding it. Being transsexual in this society is a curse. You wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy. I hate it.

Awww... you should chat with me more. I couldn't care less if somebody is trans or not.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Awww... you should chat with me more. I couldn't care less if somebody is trans or not.

I would love to! You're awesome! I wish there were more people like you.

 

[Leftimies]

As a transsexual myself, I feel that honesty is always the best policy. I let everyone know that I'm trans. If they have a problem with it after that, that's not my problem even though it does hurt. I can understand wanting to "move past" being a transsexual but you really can't. You will always be a transsexual. Even after having chest surgery, genital reconstruction, facial feminization surgery, tracheal shave, etc. you will have to take hormones for the rest of your life and you will always lack a womb, ovaries or testicles and prostate. That reality is unbearable sometimes, but that is reality.

Another thing that's painful is that people often start treating you differently after they find out you are trans. Like on the Internet, if you're talking to people who don't know you're trans, they will treat you a certain way. Once you tell them or they otherwise find out, they will all of a sudden treat you like you're not a "real" man or woman. They will treat you as something different and you feel like you don't belong.

So you can't win by being honest and you can't win by hiding it. Being transsexual in this society is a curse. You wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy. I hate it.

I really respect that view on the matter. Besides, its always best to be accepted by the other person as the person who you really are, instead of hiding it and trying hard to be something else. So honesty will reward its adherents

And for what its worth (certainly not much), I for one won't view you any differently for being trans I wish you the best of luck! My best friend (friend I've known for 16 years) turned out to be closeted MTF transsexual. So you both have my prayers for success ^^

 

[The Sum of Awe]

My questions:

1. Was Tom wrong to suddenly reject Shirley on the basis that she is transgender?
2. Should Shirley be obligated to tell Tom her birth gender before consent?
3. Is it wrong for cisgender individuals to only prefer other cisgender individuals, to the exclusion of transgender people?

1. No - It's his decision, though it's probably possible to be kind about it, it happened and there's no changing it, why make it worse by adding emotion?

2. No - Nobody's obligated to do anything beyond what they like. Let alone, Shirley could likely not find it relevant at all to mention.

3. No - Unless you are a dictator, why should sexual preference hold any restrictions unless it is to a point of bringing un-consented danger to another individual?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Consider the following situation:

Two people are at a social gathering. One, call her Shirley, is an transgender woman, the other is a straight cis-male, call him Tom. Tom approaches Shirley, believing that she is a cis-female. They flirt and Tom takes Shirley back to his place where they end up in bed together, and eventually consent to intercourse.

Later on, Tom learns through a mutual friend, John, that Shirley is in fact a transgender woman, and was assigned male gender at birth. After that, Tom is angry, and refuses to approach Shirley. He claims he feels "violated" and was was “deceived”, and it was “unethical”, because if he’d known she was trans, he would not have consented to intercourse.

My questions:

1. Was Tom wrong to suddenly reject Shirley on the basis that she is transgender?
2. Should Shirley be obligated to tell Tom her birth gender before consent?
3. Is it wrong for cisgender individuals to only prefer other cisgender individuals, to the exclusion of transgender people?

If you could explain why you answered the way that you did, that would be helpful.

Also you could imagine the situation mentioned above in reverse, but I don't think the answer should be different.

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) No

I think transgender people have an obligation to disclose the origin of their true gender. Mentally we do not live in a society that for one still accepts gays, bi-sexuals, and transsexuals. Two, as a heterosexual man myself I prefer a born heterosexual woman. Although I understand transsexuals believe psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, and even genetically their gender (not their original assigned sex), they are still, in my eyes even in their present transformation, a (in my case) man.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

1. No - It's his decision, though it's probably possible to be kind about it, it happened and there's no changing it, why make it worse by adding emotion?

2. No - Nobody's obligated to do anything beyond what they like. Let alone, Shirley could likely not find it relevant at all to mention.

3. No - Unless you are a dictator, why should sexual preference hold any restrictions unless it is to a point of bringing un-consented danger to another individual?

But in #1 as I look at some of the responses people often think rejection amounts to being rude. You can reject someone without being rude.

#2 I disagree. I believe in a relationship built on a foundation of honesty I believe the person who has changed their assigned sex to have a duty to disclose that detail. Because as I mentioned in the above post a heterosexual man may not see beyond the present transformation. For me, I still see a man who has changed into a woman. Unfortunately this is a formed thought in my mind that I will not change. Besides, I want to have children. Also you claim nobody is obligated to do beyond what they don't like.....

Really? Is that your final answer?

What about someone who has genital herpes with no outbreak? Are you saying they are not obligated to disclose an embarrassing and ice breaking detail about a sexually transmitted disease?

#3 I believed this in the above. Sexual preference matters because born heterosexual men want to be with born heterosexual women.

 

[Penumbra]

I figured I'd jump in here again. A few particular points:

#2 I disagree. I believe in a relationship built on a foundation of honesty I believe the person who has changed their assigned sex to have a duty to disclose that detail.

OP doesn't mention anything about a relationship. It was casual sex.

Besides, I want to have children.

Do you believe it is morally obligatory for a non-trans woman that happens to be infertile to disclose this infertility to you before having casual sex with you? If anything it would increase the safety of the casual encounter by ruling out the possibility of pregnancy entirely.

What about someone who has genital herpes with no outbreak? Are you saying they are not obligated to disclose an embarrassing and ice breaking detail about a sexually transmitted disease?

The difference is STD's actually harm people.

Sexual preference matters because born heterosexual men want to be with born heterosexual women.

Narrow that statement, because it's not universal. Some heterosexual men are with trans women.

I'm a heterosexual woman, and it doesn't matter to me if a guy is trans or not. I've only met a few trans men, but that fact about themselves has no tangible impact on the way I see them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Unfortunately this is a formed thought in my mind that I will not change.

Translation: "I'm a bigot and I don't want to change."

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Penumbra see your points in Bold

OP doesn't mention anything about a relationship. It was casual sex.

Ok, perhaps I missed that.

Do you believe it is morally obligatory for a non-trans woman that happens to be infertile to disclose this infertility to you before having casual sex with you?

No. But disclosing being infertile is insignificant if the initial basis of a relationship is casual sex or "friends with benefits." Unless the parameters of the relationship is defined which includes fertility, this piece of information is insignificant.

If anything it would increase the safety of the casual encounter by ruling out the possibility of pregnancy entirely.

"Safety" in your case is quite subjective. Perhaps you prefer reckless sex without protection?

The difference is STD's actually harm people.

So does dishonesty. There have been numerous reports of murders where transsexuals withheld information of their sex and upon finding out the person (pursuing the transsexual sexually) became psychologically unstable and ends up killing the person

See: Murder of Gwen Araujo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Narrow that statement, because it's not universal. Some heterosexual men are with trans women.

Ok majority. I hardly know anyone in my circle, indirectly in my circle or outside my circle that would be with a transsexual person. I even asked this question at work today and unanimously all the men said no they wouldn't because as I've said, the mental picture of what was once a man still is embedded in the mind of the person.

I'm a heterosexual woman, and it doesn't matter to me if a guy is trans or not. I've only met a few trans men, but that fact about themselves has no tangible impact on the way I see them.

Ok but that is you and I'm sure you are probably in the minority.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Translation: "I'm a bigot and I don't want to change."

How I am a bigot for not being attracted to a trassexual under the notion that I still have a mental picture of once was a man? This has nothing to do with me befriending or sharing a meal with someone who is transsexual, this has to do with my preferences of whom I'm attracted to. Before you throw the bigot word out, read what people write first. Besides, you're a Catholic, you have no room to talk. Catholicism is filled with pedophilia, racism, sexism, and the list goes on. Still to this day women cannot be priest because of an arbitrary rule. So please stop being a pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Ok majority. I hardly know anyone in my circle, indirectly in my circle or outside my circle that would be with a transsexual person. I even asked this question at work today and unanimously all the men said no they wouldn't because as I've said, the mental picture of what was once a man still is embedded in the mind of the person.

Of course most straight men will say no to such a question. They don't want to be seen as "gay" to their transphobic and homophobic peers. However, a good number of them would probably have sex with a trans woman as long as no one knows about it. That is a very common occurrence. Hetero cis males will screw a trans woman but not have a relationship with her and not let his friends and family know about it. There's a lot of shame surrounding it and your attitude towards this is a good example of it.

At the extreme end, this has led to trans women being assaulted and murdered by cis men who fly into a self-hating trans/homophobic panic . They commit violence against the trans woman in order to "save face" by their peers and claim that the trans woman "misled" them even though the trans woman in question usually has her "original plumbing" and these men have had sex with her. You even blame the trans woman for her own assault and/or murder instead of placing the blame where it properly belongs - the culture of transphobia and homophobia and the imbalanced, self-hating and confused people it produces.

This needs to end.