Is it wrong if you want to know a partners or potential partner's biological/original gender?

[Alceste]

The very same situation could still happen even if you have known the other person for a longer time period. The risks are still there, even though you have been talking as if they were not.



Not exactly what i said. She should disclose anything about herself that has a considerable chance, to her knowledge, of making him regret his own choice. If you happen to mislead someone on his choices, then you are also responsible for them.



I disagree. We can and should be expected to take on responsibility, to a certain extent, for the feelings of people we barely know if we happen to get involved with them, even if it is just a one night stand.

You're not grasping the basic concept of marketing yourself as a casual sex partner. You don't sit down and list all the reasons somebody might NOT want to bang you. The absolute worst possible consequence in this scenario is that the guy feels icky later. So what? People feel icky after hookup sex all the time, for all kinds of reasons. First among them is that sex with strangers, when intimacy and trust is absent, is usually pretty bad sex.

 

[Alceste]

Here's two more:

Source.

I'd bang both those hotties. Preferably together.

 

[vtunie]

In the OP, that's exactly what happened. Tom slept with Shirely without any notice; there was nothing about her that led Tom to have any issues. Tom found out later, through a friend, that Shirely is a trans woman; a person who was assigned male at birth but has transitioned, and he made a big issue out of it.

If she now has the female exterior organs, she is not a trans-gender but a physical woman -- as I explained in my post, she should not even be called a trans-gender but what she is, namely a trans-sexual.

I insist on the distinction between sex and gender because ultimately the exterior organs suffice and are necessary for the identification of physical sex (and may the international sporting controversies be disregarded). Since I've now finally understood that the whole discussion has deliberately confused the two terms, I regret that I must conclude my part in it.

 

[Koldo]

Shouldn't we avoid typical usage if we're specifically referring to exceptions, and discussing how to categorize them? Exceptions are everything here. Seems to me we should try to stick with absolute definitions, if you can find any.

I think they do have to be mentioned. Would a woman born with a birth defect to her uterus not be a woman? Apparently producing egg cells isn't an absolute definition of a woman, or sperm cells for the man.

Absolutes?
The XX chromossomes.

And what about a woman with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome? Born with XY chromosomes, can't reproduce, has female external genitals, grows breasts, has all female secondary sex characteristics, and is always raised as a woman with no legal issues in any society I'm aware of.

They are still not women. Although they appear to be women.

Apparently flawed reasoning, in Tom's case.

Unlucky man, isn't he?
He would be correct over 99% of the time.

She should assume everyone is going to have a problem?

She should assume many people would have a problem with that.

Should a woman disclose the number of sex partners she has had, without being asked, just in case the guy finds anything over a certain number to be unacceptable?

If there is sufficient reason to believe the guy wouldn't get involved with you if you had sex with a high number of guys ( and you did ), then you should either not get involved with him in the first place, or tell him you slept with a lot of guys. Not necessarily saying the number.

Seems to me that if a person has specific sexual hang-ups, they need to take responsibility and inquire about them, rather than blame other people for not correctly guessing and addressing their sexual hang-ups without being asked.

There would be no problem whatsoever with this position if it was about unnusual/uncommon sexual hang-ups. This isn't the case though.

 

[Koldo]

You're not grasping the basic concept of marketing yourself as a casual sex partner. You don't sit down and list all the reasons somebody might NOT want to bang you. The absolute worst possible consequence in this scenario is that the guy feels icky later. So what? People feel icky after hookup sex all the time, for all kinds of reasons. First among them is that sex with strangers, when intimacy and trust is absent, is usually pretty bad sex.

You don't have to be a jerk when it comes down to casual sex just because it is casual sex.
That's a pretty basic concept too, isn't it?

 

[Father Heathen]

Why not?

To be fair; XX, Xy

 

[Penumbra]

Absolutes?
The XX chromossomes.

They are still not women. Although they appear to be women.

Well your opinion contradicts world opinion, because women with CAIS are assigned to be female by doctors and are raised legally and socially female everywhere. Plus they have female gender identities, due to no masculinization of the brain.

Actually, because women with CAIS are completely immune to testosterone (whereas both men and women do have some testosterone in their bodies), they actually tend to have more feminine physical characteristics than the average woman. Thicker head hair, less body hair, feminine build.

Unlucky man, isn't he?
He would be correct over 99% of the time.

What makes him unlucky?

She should assume many people would have a problem with that.

If there is sufficient reason to believe the guy wouldn't get involved with you if you had sex with a high number of guys ( and you did ), then you should either not get involved with him in the first place, or tell him you slept with a lot of guys. Not necessarily saying the number.

Why is that her job to tell him?

There would be no problem whatsoever with this position if it was about unnusual/uncommon sexual hang-ups. This isn't the case though.

So ethics are based on the frequency of a sexual hang-up? Women of Jewish descent should disclose Jewish ancestry in a predominantly anti-Semitic environment, even when engaging in casual sex?

Seems to me that maybe he should disclose that he has a problem with trans people so that she can make sure she doesn't sleep with someone like that.

 

[Penumbra]

To be fair; XX, Xy

What is your opinion on women with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome?

They're born with XY chromosomes but are assigned female by physicians, have a female gender identity, are raised socially and legally female everywhere, often do not ever find out about their chromosomes or find out well after birth, and live their whole lives as women?

 

[Aquitaine]

How ironic, that a person born with CAIS may appear *more* Feminine than a "normal" Female, because of the immunity to testosterone!

 

[Father Heathen]

What is your opinion on women with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome?

They're born with XY chromosomes but are assigned female by physicians, have a female gender identity, are raised socially and legally female everywhere, often do not ever find out about their chromosomes or find out well after birth, and live their whole lives as women?

Oh, I don't have an issue with trangenderism at all. I'm just pointing out that, technically, chromosomes determine sex from a purely biological standpoint.

For the record I knew a girl who was actually Xy, and she didn't discover this until she was diagnosed with cancer, where doctors told her she was a pseudohermaphrodite. As she explained it, externally she appeared as any other female, but internally she had male organs.

In the end, people should go with what they feel comfortable with and with what they identify as.

 

[Penumbra]

Oh, I don't have an issue with trangenderism at all. I'm just pointing out that, technically, chromosomes determine sex from a purely biological standpoint.

According to whom, though? Who gets to decide that X and Y chromosomes are the absolute factor in the mix of genitals, brain wiring, and genes? The more they've figured out about genes, the more they've moved away from that idea.

Doctors assign those people as female, everywhere, and there's never really been much controversy about that, anywhere. And there is a version where men have XX chromosomes too.

So now we have genes on the Y that can turn females with XX chromosomes into males and genes on the X that can turn males with XY chromosomes into females… wow! Maleness and femaleness are NOT determined by having an X or a Y, since switching a couple of genes around can turn things upside down.

In fact, there’s a whole lot more to maleness and femaleness than X or Y chromosomes. About 1 in 20,000 men has no Y chromosome, instead having 2 Xs. This means that in the United States there are about 7,500 men without a Y chromosome. The equivalent situation - females who have XY instead of XX chromosomes - can occur for a variety of reasons and overall is similar in frequency.
For these 15,000 or more individuals in the US (and who knows how many worldwide), their chromosomes are irrelevant. It is the total complement of their genes along with their life experiences (physical, mental, social) that makes them who they are (or any of us, for that matter). The last time I counted, there were at least 30 genes that have been found to have important roles in the development of sex in either humans or mice. Of these 30 or so genes 3 are located on the X chromosome, 1 on the Y chromosome and the rest are on other chromosomes, called autosomes (on chromosomes 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 17, 19).

In light of this, sex should be considered not a product of our chromosomes, but rather, a product of our total genetic makeup, and of the functions of these genes during development.

Source.

 

[Alceste]

You don't have to be a jerk when it comes down to casual sex just because it is casual sex.
That's a pretty basic concept too, isn't it?

I don't think that in the OP scenario it is the transsexual woman who is being a jerk. The guy wanted to sleep with her and she slept with him. What could be kinder and more generous?

 

[Koldo]

Well your opinion contradicts world opinion, because women with CAIS are assigned to be female by doctors and are raised legally and socially female everywhere. Plus they have female gender identities, due to no masculinization of the brain.

I wouldn't expect doctors to assign them to be male. Nor for them to be raised as males. There is no contradiction on saying they are not women though.

On the vast majority of societies you have to be either a man or a woman. There is no room for anything else. At least, not at birth.

Actually, because women with CAIS are completely immune to testosterone (whereas both men and women do have some testosterone in their bodies), they actually tend to have more feminine physical characteristics than the average woman. Thicker head hair, less body hair, feminine build.

Except they tend to have some extra organs not present on most women, and lack some others.

What makes him unlucky?

He assumed something that didn't happen to be true.
And later on, he felt violated.

Why is that her job to tell him?

Because it is reasonable for him to assume she is not a trans woman.

So ethics are based on the frequency of a sexual hang-up? Women of Jewish descent should disclose Jewish ancestry in a predominantly anti-Semitic environment, even when engaging in casual sex?

Seems to me that maybe he should disclose that he has a problem with trans people so that she can make sure she doesn't sleep with someone like that.

It is her responsibility because:

1) It is reasonable to assume she is a woman, given that she looks like a woman.

2) She knows it is a common deal breaker, and that many men will think of her as any other woman.

If it were an uncommon hang-up, then she couldn't possibly be expected to imagine it, and therefore she would have no responsibility over it.

 

[Penumbra]

I wouldn't expect doctors to assign them to be male. Nor for them to be raised as males. There is no contradiction on saying they are not women though.

Yes there is, because physical sex is a far more complicated thing that you make it out to be, coming directly from statements by physicians.

On the vast majority of societies you have to be either a man or a woman. There is no room for anything else. At least, not at birth.

Except they tend to have some extra organs not present on most women, and lack some others.

Some women are born with missing parts, and birth defects can make people born with extra parts.

He assumed something that didn't happen to be true.
And later on, he felt violated.

She probably assumed he was a nice guy, and probably feels violated.

Because it is reasonable for him to assume she is not a trans woman.

Why?

It is her responsibility because:

1) It is reasonable to assume she is a woman, given that she looks like a woman.

She is a woman.

2) She knows it is a common deal breaker, and that many men will think of her as any other woman.

That's his problem. He enjoyed the night of casual sex. He's getting hung up on information that does no actual harm to him after the fact, and probably hasn't taken the time to understand any of it. What else could his feeling of after-the-fact revulsion come from, other than misguided homophobia?

If it were an uncommon hang-up, then she couldn't possibly be expected to imagine it, and therefore she would have no responsibility over it.

I don't base ethics on common (and illogical) assumptions. I think people are responsible for their own actions, and their own thoughts.

If the guy has a problem with trans women even though there is no actual negative impact on him from the event itself (unlike, say, disclosure of being HIV positive), then I think it's his responsibility to ask if someone is a trans women if he has a serious and not entirely logical hang-up that pops up well after the casual sex itself.

 

[Koldo]

How ironic, that a person born with CAIS may appear *more* Feminine than a "normal" Female, because of the immunity to testosterone!

There was a House episode about this particular condition.

I am going to quote him: "the perfect woman...is a man"

 

[Alceste]

I wouldn't expect doctors to assign them to be male. Nor for them to be raised as males. There is no contradiction on saying they are not women though.

On the vast majority of societies you have to be either a man or a woman. There is no room for anything else. At least, not at birth.



Except they tend to have some extra organs not present on most women, and lack some others.



He assumed something that didn't happen to be true.
And later on, he felt violated.



Because it is reasonable for him to assume she is not a trans woman.




It is her responsibility because:

1) It is reasonable to assume she is a woman, given that she looks like a woman.

2) She knows it is a common deal breaker, and that many men will think of her as any other woman.

If it were an uncommon hang-up, then she couldn't possibly be expected to imagine it, and therefore she would have no responsibility over it.

So basically he has absolutely no responsibility for his own choices, feelings or decisions when it comes to sex. The entire burden of making sure he has an unblemished positive experience in every respect rests on the shoulders of the women he sleeps with, and none on his own shoulders. He has no duty to disclose his own hang-ups and eccentricities - it's her job to anticipate them and compensate for them. Is that about right?

I dated a guy who grew up on a farm. After a couple months, he told me he used to have sex with farm animals. I felt icky about it, and it turned out to be a deal breaker. But I would never expect that to be among the first disclosures he made to me, especially while he was trying to get into my pants. Another guy - a fiance - told me he had sexually assaulted a child. Also a deal breaker, but he didn't tell me until we'd been together for four years. Another guy told me he was 29 when he was actually 22. He came clean several months into our relationship. Deal breaker. But I still had a nice time with these guys and we parted on reasonably good terms. You simply can not guess what other people are going to consider a deal breaker, especially when you don't know them very well. If you feel strongly about this, I recommend you write a list of every possible reason somebody might potentially not want to sleep with you and read it out every time you ask someone out on a date.

Or, you know, you could take responsibility for your own feelings, decisions, behavior and hang-ups and accept that what you see is not always what you get in love, sex and relationships. There are bound to be surprises along the way. Some nice, some not so nice. That's life.

 

[Koldo]

Yes there is, because physical sex is a far more complicated thing that you make it out to be, coming directly from statements by physicians.

Then please do quote them.

Some women are born with missing parts, and birth defects can make people born with extra parts.

Indeed. How many women with testicles do you know though?

She probably assumed he was a nice guy, and probably feels violated.

What?

Why?

Because there is a very high probability that a person that looks like a woman is not a trans woman. Over 99%.

She is a woman.

That again...
Alright:

1) It is reasonable to assume she is not a trans woman.

That's his problem. He enjoyed the night of casual sex. He's getting hung up on information that does no actual harm to him after the fact, and probably hasn't taken the time to understand any of it. What else could his feeling of after-the-fact revulsion come from, other than misguided homophobia?

He felt being deceived, because she didn't tell him the truth.
He didn't give his informed consent to have sex with a trans woman.

I don't base ethics on common (and illogical) assumptions. I think people are responsible for their own actions, and their own thoughts.

What is illogical about that assumption?

If the guy has a problem with trans women even though there is no actual negative impact on him from the event itself (unlike, say, disclosure of being HIV positive), then I think it's his responsibility to ask if someone is a trans women if he has a serious and not entirely logical hang-up that pops up well after the casual sex itself.

Because people have to think only of themselves, right?
Because people shouldn't really have to think on how others will be impacted with their actions and omissions.
Because, after all, putting youself in someone else's shoes is such a bothersome task that is simply not worth it, right?
After all, if i can think only of myself, and what i can gain from it, why would i think on anyone else?

 

[Koldo]

So basically he has absolutely no responsibility for his own choices, feelings or decisions when it comes to sex. The entire burden of making sure he has an unblemished positive experience in every respect rests on the shoulders of the women he sleeps with, and none on his own shoulders. He has no duty to disclose his own hang-ups and eccentricities - it's her job to anticipate them and compensate for them. Is that about right?

I love how you took it to such an extreme point. How, from one specific point, you created this completly distorted scenario.

No, that is not right.

 

[Alceste]

I love how you took it to such an extreme point. How, from one specific point, you created this completly distorted scenario.

No, that is not right.

Ok, then in your view, what is he responsible for in this scenario, if anything? Whose job is it to deal with his particular hangups about gender?

 

[Penumbra]

Then please do quote them.

I already did. Look at post 111.

Indeed. How many women with testicles do you know though?

A few.

What?

She slept with someone who later turned out to be homophobic.

Because there is a very high probability that a person that looks like a woman is not a trans woman. Over 99%.

So?

That again...
Alright:

1) It is reasonable to assume she is not a trans woman.

No.

He felt being deceived, because she didn't tell him the truth.
He didn't give his informed consent to have sex with a trans woman.

He gave his consent to have sex with her, as he saw her and interacted with her. He saw what he saw. She's not responsible for disclosing everything about her medical history that has no medical effect on him, just like he isn't.

What is illogical about that assumption?

There are trans people. Assuming people that you want to sleep with are not trans is not smart if you have a major hang up about trans people. It's a non-issue in reality, but if a person makes it into an issue, then those are their issues to work out for themselves.

Playing the odds, it would be a mathematically reasonable statement to guess that a woman has XX chromosomes and a man has XY chromosomes, but if the person is gonna freak out if he's wrong, then he's got to take responsibility for his boundaries and ask his partners to make sure that none of his hang-ups will be triggered. He's a man, not a child, right?

Because people have to think only of themselves, right?
Because people shouldn't really have to think on how others will be impacted with their actions and omissions.
Because, after all, putting youself in someone else's shoes is such a bothersome task that is simply not worth it, right?
After all, if i can think only of myself, and what i can gain from it, why would i think on anyone else?

I could say the same thing about how he inappropriately interacted about her, freaking out about her trans status.

All she did was agree to have sex with him. They had an enjoyable time, and there is no physical harm at all. He can play the victim card all he wants, but she didn't harm him.