Is Jesus Eternal?

[URAVIP2ME]

First, the Jews would not have accused Jesus of making himself a god, because first off Jews didn't believe in any God by one God. They did not believe in "the gods" themselves, nor that Jesus was claiming to be one of those. They wouldn't consider doing that to be blasphemy. They'd just consider that to be pagan, and would not have the authority or the right to put Jesus to death for being a non-Jew, which he would be if he thought he was a god.
But the real point is, they took what he said to mean that he was calling himself God, or equal to God (same thing, since there is only one God). That is the story in John. That is what it explicitly says. Now you can argue that that was an error on their part to believe that's what Jesus meant, but I'd like to point out to you something glarlying missing in the story.
Never once does John have Jesus tell them they were wrong. You would think he would have corrected them, or at least let the readers of John's gospel think that Jesus thought they were wrong. How come that's missing?
Funny that John doesn't have Jesus correct them, if they just misunderstood his meaning. You would think if some was looking to kill you or put you in jail because they thought you stole their goat, you would at least try to tell them they were mistaken, wouldn't you? So, no, that's not the way the story reads.
It appear the author was making it clear that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because that is what he was saying, and it upset their religious sensibilities. That's kind of the whole theme of John, isn't it? Not just in that one story?

The false religious leaders were trying to accuse Jesus of blasphemy.
Remember what reference Jesus made in reply to them by referring to Psalms 82 at John 10:34-35,36
Because they could Not execute Jesus they had to get the Romans involved to do their dirty work.
So, instead of blasphemy they used trumped-up political charges of sedition, treason and injured majesty.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

We all know that "Jesus is God" in John's Gospel..
..as an "Arian", I will not waste any more time trying to convince you otherwise.

No, Jesus is Not God in John's gospel. That is a false teaching of 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian )
'Christendom' the MANY that prove false to Jesus - Matthew 7:21-23.

Look John believed Jesus is the Son at John 20:31
Look John believed seeing God would cause death. People saw Jesus and lived - John 1:18; 1 John 4:12
John wrote Revelation and John puts heavenly Jesus as God's creation at Revelation 3:14 B
The angel told Mary she was Not giving birth to God but to God's Son at Luke 1:35

Thus, pre-human Jesus was " IN " the beginning but Not "BEFORE" the beginning as God is - Psalms 90:2
No Scripture says Jesus was ' before ' the beginning but "IN " the beginning

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Eternal, by definition, is that which lasts forever; without beginning and without end.
Jesus was born. We know this because his birth is celebrated on this day every year by Christians worldwide.
I've also heard it said that Jesus is eternal. Is this possible? If His beginning is celebrated each year, he obviously has a beginning. So how is it possible that Jesus is eternal?

God is eternal by definition at Psalms 90:2 existing 'before' any creation.
How Jesus is now eternal is answered at John 5:26
This is because faithful resurrected Jesus was then given/granted the Resurrection Power - Revelation 1:18
In other words, like all angelic and human creation Jesus was mortal until his faithful death.
So, pre-human heavenly Jesus had a beginning (Revelation 3:14 B) but now faithful Jesus will have No end.
No end can also hold true for the dead that Jesus will resurrect - Acts of the Apostles 24:15

 

[Trailblazer]

Incarnate literally means 'come in flesh' or 'meat', as in 'carne' - meat. He became flesh, he in 'carne' ted.

Jesus came in the flesh. Coming in the flesh is not possible for God to do since God is spirit.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I wonder if Jesus would consider my thoughts mockery..
Jesus taught us to worship God [our Father, whom art in heaven]
..insisting that one has to believe in a particular "formula", in order to do so .. hmm

Yes, worship God as Jesus instructed at John 4:23-24 with spirit and truth.
Have a spirited form of worship - lively / active - Matthew 24:13-14; Acts 1:8
Worship God with ' religious truth ' - John 17:17 - just as Jesus did basing his beliefs on God's Word/Scripture.

 

[Rival]

Jesus came in the flesh. Coming in the flesh is not possible for God to do since God is spirit.

You believe God could not choose to take on a human form if he wanted?

 

[muhammad_isa]

It says that in that book from the Dude in Chicago? Why on earth would you consider that good source material about Christian history to throw in support of your views then?

I was not citing it as "evidence".
If I was citing evidence, I tend to use wikipedia, otherwise we can cite all sorts of non peer-reviewed nonsense.

So you're a fan of Arius, because you find it more supportive of your views..

I'm a fan of Origen as well, but unfortunately his works were burnt by trinitarians, who later decided his work was heresy. Hmm.
We only have the "official Latin works", approved and altered by the Romans.

..But do you really actually understand Christian church history? Do you really understand what Arius taught and believed?

I don't subscribe to the "Roman version" of history, no.
Why would I?
It goes out of its way to show us how Christianity has always been what it is today, starting with Jesus and the Disciples.
Am I expected to believe that Bible authors, voting Bishops, and Popes are all infallible .. but the Qur'an is a forgery, that is written by satan.
Each to their own.

You claimed the prologue of John is a forgery..

No, I didn't.
A lot of the texts in the NT are believed by scholars to be written in stages.

You claim the gospel of John itself was rejected by Arius..

It might have been .. who cares?
What about all those "Arians" that had never even heard of him?

..but I've shown that is not true..

Have you?
how can you do that? By examining Roman documents, presumably .. the very documents that accuse "Arians" of illogical belief.

..such as believing that Jesus was created, but "before the ages"
Ha ha .. the "Arians" are stupid, aren't they?

You should care as it directly refutes your bogus claim that the Romans forced the gospel of John in the Christian canon..

This debate is really just one of taking Roman History as "Gospel".

You can believe it all, but I don't.
I have very good reason to believe otherwise.

The Romans destroyed the temple in Jerusalem, and persecuted believers of all stripes .. and then they tell us that Judaism is cancelled .. we have to believe that Jesus is God.

It is always explained to me, that Jesus prayed to the Father,
and the trinity is a mystery and so on.
Well it's not a mystery to me.

Arius himself used it!

Did he?
How can you be so sure?
..and how can you be so sure that Origen did not believe the same as Arius?
You only have the words of your ancestors who were trinitarian,
who persecuted their fellow Christians because .. well, what exactly..
..because they did not believe that Jesus created the universe???
Oh boy!

..the author of the gospel of John clearly was identifying Jesus with the Divine Logos as the eternal God. That is clear. What I personally believe is another matter..

Indeed..

Out of curiously, are you a former Jehovah's Witness who converted to Islam?

No .. protestant .. C of E.

Actually, not looking beyond your own biases into the fuller picture of church history, is a form of creating your own illusions about reality..

Not really .. not unless you think that the Qur'an is a forgery.

So you choose arbitrarily to believe in something since no of the information is reliable anyway?

No. Some things are difficult to deny.
Wars that took place, for example.
How things unfold tends to be related differently depending on who narrates them, naturally.

I don't find it surprising that "Arian" North Africa became Muslim North Africa, despite the Roman Empire's wishes, for example.

Actually, Constantine didn't personally care how Christians resolved their theology..

I wasn't referring to Constantine, but Justinian in particular.
We have reason to believe that Constantine died as an "Arian".
He was baptised shortly before his death.

..And ignoring data and reliable information that challenges our beliefs is a way we keep ourselves secure.

I wouldn't advise anybody to do that..

We need to look at the whole, including data from all sources .. not just what suits us .. and interpret it all, without consideration of worldy wealth and tribal affiliation.

 

[dybmh]

OK, I understand your point .. thanks.

.must be a bad habit that I've picked up from Jewish friends..
..it was always said in good humour.

Thank you, very very much.

 

[Trailblazer]

You believe God could not choose to take on a human form if he wanted?

Doesn't the Bible say that God is unchanging? The Bible also says that God is not a man.

Numbers 23:19
English Standard Version
19 God is not man, that he should lie,
or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

God did take on a human form when He sent Jesus, but God did not become a human being.

Philippians 2:5-8
English Standard Version
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,a]">[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,b]">[b] 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,c]">[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I've explained that already. Who are your sources that suggest the prologue of the gospel of John was a forgery..

I didn't say it was a forgery .. I just suggested that it might have been written after by another author..

We don't know who wrote the Gospel .. there are plenty of theories..
Authorship of the Johannine works - Wikipedia

What are your sources that say the gospel of John was not used by Christians and was only included in the Christian canon because of the Romans who wanted it there because it said that Jesus was God. Who are your sources, please?

There are many pages on wikipedia about Christianity and its history.
Are you asking me to trawl through them all to find a hint of this?
What would be your reaction if I did find it?

Look at the dates, to start with..
The council of Rome, when the canon was officially declared..

The Council of Rome was a meeting of Catholic Church officials and theologians which took place in AD 382 under the authority of Pope Damasus I, the then-Bishop of Rome..
Council of Rome - Wikipedia

The persecution of so-called Arians started before this time, with Council of Nicea 325.CE

 

[PearlSeeker]

God did take on a human form when He sent Jesus, but God did not become a human being.

Philippians 2:5-8
English Standard Version
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,a]">[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,b]">[b] 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,c]">[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

No. It says Jesus Christ was in the form of God before he was born in the likeness of men. He was born, ate and drank, was tempted, was killed... How can you say he didn't became a human being?

"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin." (Heb 4)

 

[PearlSeeker]

Jesus came in the flesh. Coming in the flesh is not possible for God to do since God is spirit.

God is spirit and "the wind blows where it wishes".

 

[Trailblazer]

No. It says Jesus Christ was in the form of God before he was born in the likeness of men. He was born, ate and drank, was tempted, was killed... How can you say he didn't became a human being?

Philippians 2:5-8
English Standard Version
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,a]">[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,b]">[b] 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,c]">[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

The verse does not say that Jesus Christ was in the form of God before he was born in the likeness of men.
Jesus was a human being who was born, ate and drank, was tempted, was killed.
Jesus was in the form of God because He was a Manifestation of God, but a Manifestation is not identical to what it manifests.

"The Christian equivalent to the Bahá'í concept of Manifestation is the concept of incarnation. The word to incarnate means 'to embody in flesh or 'to assume, or exist in, a bodily (esp. a human) form (Oxford English Dictionary). From a Bahá'í point of view, the important question regarding the subject of incarnation is, what does Jesus incarnate? Bahá'ís can certainly say that Jesus incarnated Gods attributes, in the sense that in Jesus, Gods attributes were perfectly reflected and expressed.[4] The Bahá'í scriptures, however, reject the belief that the ineffable essence of the Divinity was ever perfectly and completely contained in a single human body, because the Bahá'í scriptures emphasize the omnipresence and transcendence of the essence of God…..

One can argue that Bahá'u'lláh is asserting that epistemologically the Manifestations are God, for they are the perfect embodiment of all we can know about God; but ontologically they are not God, for they are not identical with God's essence. Perhaps this is the meaning of the words attributed to Jesus in the gospel of John: 'If you had known me, you would have known my Father also' (John 14:7) and 'he who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9)….."

Jesus Christ in the Bahá'í Writings

 

[rational experiences]

Men humans evolved changed their own human bio body.
Men humans evolved their consciousness.

The warning. The man's evolved consciousness destroys life.

Now. In life returned our consciousness of humans was taught it's own old advice. Consciousness returned they said as Rome had been stopped from using temple technology. Temple was destroyed.

Philosophers stone was nuclear dust Sion converting conversion by maths calculus. By men present in man's life to apply it.

To apply the conversion you ignore you impose a heated zero to act the converting. If you use all the mass you are left with another heated zero.

That's a humans idea I have sacrificed gods space womb peace body. Cold zeros always greatest. Presence.

Men of sun advice claim a heated space is eternally present has always been heated and still is heated.

If he says one day it will be only eternally cold ...then now he doesn't give himself permission to do science.

Using the word eternal wherever he wants to impose it in men's conversation.

Pretty basic advice the destroyer is men of science with a false God a machine.

So over time after heavens day went dark man's caused heavens vacuum womb heated event. No light but hot darkness....the vacuum void then cooled. Only after gas light reignited.

Stopped his use of temple science...then he says he was allowing gas mass body sacrificed to return. Isn't he powerful our science brother!

Reason. In space voiding one way the greater amount of cold empty space not within the suns range owns gases.

Why spirit gas isn't a space resource it's a condition of causes.

Therefore after everyone believed life on earth was being destroyed. As man's Earthquake carpenter tectonic confessed as carpenter terms it was my man's cause. Seeing earthquakes planet earth owned.... Machine his had caused a four day earthquake. Where fallout attacked human animal biology witnessed sacrificed.

Womb mother then took sacrificed gas body spirit away. Body mass of sacrifice stopped of gods entombed mass and gas spirit heavens.

Man's science sin had caused a new sink hole...s in earths God mass. So new sin can always occur. Gods body is what he removes. As Inheritor of God earth mass is the spirit heavens gas he removed it's mass also.

That inheritance once only as natural gas mass. Isn't science owned.

In two places it was taken. As he caused two heated zero positions in converting using a resource.

Why teachers only as philosophy stated no man is God...we are not mass a cold zero or a heated zero.

Pretty basic human advice.

Men thinking on behalf of the machine controlling the machine then pretend a human is part machine. Yet any choice is human...all wants human...all thoughts human using a machine.

In laws metal formation is in deep space pressure. So machines only came virtually from out of space as human conjured and built. Basic advice about who caused a machine attack.

Why men of science claim god by machine conditions. As sensible humans don't pretend they speak on behalf of created creations mass or its natural history.

Hence when men knew once they used technology. Memory says they acted like a Man god in human science. A long time ago. The past man of science only.

Why mutated memory life owns no science memory. Yet the human life sacrificed history body mind was bio lived.

It's why man's evolved mind now thinks self was a man god. From old technology in a healthier human mind and bio body.

Invented science caused biologies attack and mutation. Maths science wisdom man's conscious self was gone. Hence he cannot pretend today on behalf of who he lived as in our past....not a Theist and not a scientist. As a man's human life that modern science methodology was involved.

He didn't express science then.

As he wasn't practicing science.

He has only returned to his human use of science maths technology in the modern age. Evolved healed life.

Returned health only proves once the heavens mass condition supported it's bio type before and then it all changed.

What misquoting the word eternal means.

In the Phi science he used Phi to build his machine calculus. Not only was a fixed machine used by Phi calculus. .. A non fixed mass conversion used the same Phi calculus.

Why his machine blew.
Why bio life was heavens attacked sacrificed as no man is God mass in a cold space zero void.

No man is a gas in the same space void.
No man is a Dust notified presence of in the space void. The laws position exact.

Whether or not it's on earth as dust law says its held in the space of void pressures cold. One way....away. Taken. Removed said law. The cause of dust not being held in a mass.

Therefore science reviewed said the phi fallout attack was stopped as spaces law is extreme cold. Eternal space causes.

Eternal space is it's owned body and owned laws. Science doesn't own it as a thesis Jesus. Jesus isn't the term eternal it's only Jesus.

Philosophy described the eternal law caused Jesus life sacrifice to end. Yet it isn't any true end.

Reasoned. As one third frozen star mass fell as returning wandering asteroids. They knew a future attack bio life sacrifice would return on earth.

As men of science changed cold space earths journey to heated space. Wandering asteroids ignited returned and hit earth. Men of science knew they caused it.

And it did.

Then nearly another 1000 years again Russia event hit.

Sacrificed life on earth.

If animals humans lived where it hit life was annihilated.

So pre warning new science causes said the attack sacrifice of life had not officially ended on the cross of the sun UFO ark on the mount of science temple. Calvary.

Men now use the name cavalry as an act of war...just to remind you gods war is owned by God not man. Which you have no control over.

So new documents confessed the returned life sacrifice hadn't ended officially. New life does get attacked. To notify scientists the long awaited life heavens healing mass return 2012 had already been waylaid by Jesus causes.

As 2012 man's maths science calculus was predicted inheritance after old science temple attack only as the long count.

As that calculus belonged to the origin man's evil.choice of science and technology who caused UFO ark to cross that decimated life on earth after ice age saviour.

Notating the ice age saviour science said owned why all new biology existed on earth. Which does not allow for any nuclear or transmitter sciences to be practiced.

As minerals of life sealed in earths clay proved microbiology was kept safe within the clay.

All life in water already exists. Men removing chemical mass never invented living cells they only revealed the living cell.

Water owns the slightest of mineral substances within it. Life. Isn't anything like man's science.

Reasoned science was to own a machine and the machine is using deep space history only.

Therefore as the temple pyramid technology is just a choice and practice of humans. Men said you already knew it was evil and why our life was nearly destroyed. No excuse today to claim you didn't know.

As human behaviour says. I know understand and agree with the terms of biologies destruction. Is a confession and not created reality.

Hence imposing Jesus as an updated advice documented only reiterated his evil human mens thinking as science is.

Knowing we wanted human animal suffering to end. You already removed our rights to have natural life returned. And conscious self reasoning family applied.

Which is realised via imposing non natural identity is law first. Imposing a neutral unnatural identity instead. Is the taught status maths numbers is causing biological self identity to be removed.

As numbers are only a calculus.

And they owned no further prediction of when the atmospheric mass would now return. Only stating around year 2012 consciousness human would prove its recognition of self identity is sacrificed as a warning.

Life is being destroyed again.

Told. Science outlawed for that very reason.

Therefore hearing your evil man's commentary the voice says it's close and it's near. Obviously you are aware of a new attack on earth yourselves wondering what you will or have as cause.

Jesus proved the attack wasn't the same as before...which proved science by men's choice lies.

 

[Truthseeker]

I think that I don't know what "I was" before I came to be in this world .. it is hidden from me.

I understand. As far as I know there is no information on this in the Qur'an. Not that I've studied it in detail. I've read through it though.

 

[Trailblazer]

Since no one can argue that their belief is correct it is all arbitrary. The Bible was not written to be a reference for a certain belief. The four Gospels have one source and the other three are copies, with quite a few contradictions. And then what gets lost in translations? Any view can only be built on cherry picking as an approach.

That’s true.

It's a debate of coke versus pepsi, there is no correct answer.

It is a debate of coke versus pepsi, but that does not mean that there is not a true answer.

If only his followers could show benefits that would impress.

They have shown benefits but you are not going to find those posted on a forum.

Good idea for a thread. I think a mature human mind should accept our mortality, and deal with any fear of death head on. This idea of an afterlife seems exploitive of Christianity, at least once the Catholics became THE form of Christianity, but then on into the protestant versions. It exploits people's fear of death, and of course who wouldn't want to be reunited with dead loved ones. I sure would. I just don't see that as plausible. I can't live my life thinking that will happen.

Yes, that would be a good idea for a thread.

If you don’t believe in an afterlife, you don’t believe in one, so you are not going to live your life thinking it will happen. You would have to have a reason to believe in an afterlife.

I have a reason to believe in an afterlife so I believe in one. I have no doubt that there is an afterlife, but I don’t know the nature of it. But just because I believe in an afterlife but that does not mean I don’t have a fear of death, since nobody knows what is on the other side, or if they will like what they experience. We can have faith that we will go to heaven or paradise or whatever the various religions call it but nobody knows what will happen to themselves or to anyone else. The nature of the afterlife is a mystery that has never been revealed by God. Baha’u’llah explained the reason it has not been revealed, if you want to know.

It seems greedy to want more than this mortal life offers. It is selfish because the only reason a person would accept this idea is because they get a "get out of death free" card. It is selfish as an idea when we add in the heaven and hell scenario, because many believers think they are going to heaven and others deserve hell. That serves the self, at least their ego. What comes with this is loads of debates about what gets a person in heaven with Jesus forever, and what gets others cast in hell forever. None of that is very clear.

Yes, in that sense it is very selfish, to desire heaven for oneself and not care if others go to hell.

There are loads of debates about what gets a person to heaven, and what gets others cast in hell because the Bible verses say different things, and many are contradictory. On top of that the same Bible verses can be interpreted to mean many different things. It is a confusing mess.

 

[rational experiences]

The human being is no argument.

No man is God a God or the God.

The God of man's science thesis is machine. Satanism and always was.

Scientists are Satanists and you changed your title not wanting to be reviewed as life's destroyer. Pretty basic bad man's human behaviour and it's ego history.

The misuse of words.

Man thought... man looked... man saw... man named.

Man says to woman I'm superior I own the use of the word as men. You I only taught. Exact.

So I use the word eternal spiritually. I say it is not in created creation or space. Space is nothing a hole holding all energy. I say space is a hole in the eternals body.

Eternal is on the other side and has always and will always exist.

Science man's theism does not accept that word use as eternal.

His word use eternal he claims is any body type by his thought about it remaining as its body type forever. As man thinking upon conditions.

Hence he says space a hole nothing is for eternal.

To get gods body sacrificed in science it's converted. He uses sin..nothing point to cause a reaction heated. Then using up mass he gains another new sin of nothing. Man's invented eternal.

The Jesus earth mass event sin K holes. Body gods as spirit...gas removed in two places above and below. By mass change.

Jesus ended as eternal sin...body gone.

Exact. In two places.

The teaching said God owned heavens and God held us inside heavens mass tormented sacrificed until Phi Jesus causes ended. Exact.

As we live naturally within mass as water oxygenated....we don't live within Jesus nor do we live within God a named cooling circumstance by man's theisms.

Words stories told exact by men as notification about great change caused by Satanists. Men's sciences.

A long time ago men built machine. It came by thesis out of deep space pressures. In laws. Machine hence came from space.

He said evilly by misuse of our holy natural words now I have to give life to my machine. He made the clay pot batteries first use as a resource. To have technology machine function to use machines to convert earths nuclear mass.

He nearly destroyed all life on earth as man's god science. Old testimony verbally remembered told for a very long time.

A long time he lived without consciousness. He heard the AI medium....as life evolved and he remembered.

How men came to believe self a scientist was a man god of his owned past choices.

Giving life to a machine was an abuse of the word. Sophist. Life belongs to living.

Hence my intelligent spiritual brother knew our holy fathers life first was spiritual man and his. Wasn't any god.

Unlike his brother he taught no man is God... we're all equal.

All things are needed all things are mutual.

He taught gods mass body is dead entombed. For humans brain entrainment.

As his evil minded brother said he made God come alive as a machine...Satanism.

Pretty basic reason particular quotes were used to remove the science mind of men from its previous deceits.

How the holy word of man was abused by the satanist scientist.

Clay man said held water based minerals of life.

Man used heated clay to build first machine battery.

Those topics is how you came to argue about clay moulded life Fe versus nuclear dusts.

Men said how did science represent suns mass against earths bodies as a thesis?

It never had.

Instead men of the past theoried small mass calculus as first machine sciences.

Was nothing like why huge mass changed other mass. And he knows he can't theory a theory about that circumstance either otherwise all life on earth instantly destroyed.

So today you ask those men did you in fact try to theory the suns attack on earth? As first thesis then pretended the thesis was small? Which would be why you nearly destroyed all life on earth.

Luckily space the law controlled change.

 

[PearlSeeker]

The verse does not say that Jesus Christ was in the form of God before he was born in the likeness of men.

How did he then "emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men"?

Maybe other verses from Paul's writings are more clear about pre-existence of Christ incarnated as Jesus:

"For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh." (Rom 8:3)

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (Col 1)

 

[muhammad_isa]

Maybe other verses from Paul's writings are more clear about pre-existence of Christ incarnated as Jesus..

Don't forget though, that Paul(Saul) of Tarsus, was not a disciple..

He is considered a saint in the Catholic church .. does that make him infallible?
..it probably does according to Catholic infallibility doctrine.
They claim that Pope's and ecumenical council decisions are infallible.

..so to a staunch "believer", what "the church" says must be right by definition.

Personally, I follow no Guru .. no Pope .. no Imam.
I trust in God to guide me, and not fallible men.

 

[Muffled]

Eternal, by definition, is that which lasts forever; without beginning and without end.

Jesus was born. We know this because his birth is celebrated on this day every year by Christians worldwide.

I've also heard it said that Jesus is eternal. Is this possible? If His beginning is celebrated each year, he obviously has a beginning. So how is it possible that Jesus is eternal?

I believe He is not eternal but God within Him is.