Is Jesus God?

[outhouse]

The message of Jesus son of Mary was: O children of Israel, worship Allah, My God and Your God.
This message is present in Bible and Quran.

Yet the Koran has no historical value for Jesus or Mary. It was written to long after the events happened to have value, and most scholars claim the bible was the only source used.

Islamic mythology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[11] and Ibrahim (Abraham)[12] form parts of Islam's scriptures.

 

[Clear]

JM2C – Re-read what I said.
I said one change change the nouns, and reverse the nouns. I did NOT say, change or reverse the "subjects”. You need to ask some you know who actually knows greek to help you with these very, very simple points, rather than cutting and pasting rules you think apply. This is NOT complicated, but this five word sentence is very, very, very simple. The word order does not matter in this simple sentence.


1) Writing “The word is a God” in koine Greek
If I want to write : “The word is a God” in koine greek, then I will write : Ο λογος ην Θεος .
JM2C , Is there ANYTHING incorrect with this sentence as I have translated it? (have someone help you on this if you need help)


2) Reversing the word order in koine Greek
However, it is perfectly acceptable for me to reverse the order of the nouns.

"Ο λογος ην θεος." means exactly the same as "θεος ην ο λογος."
JM2C : Is there ANYTHING incorrect in either of these this sentences?

You are becoming confused in trying to make this translation more complicated than it is. This is very, very simple, and very correct koine Greek. (are you trying to mix english and greek rules?)


3)The question JM2C was asked to answer :
Now, that I’ve given you examples, perhaps you will answer the question I asked you to actually answer (and which forum readers, I'm sure, are waiting for) :
How would one write the words “The Word was THE God” in clear koine greek?
How would one write the words : “The Word was A God” in clear koine greek?

Once readers see how one would write these two very, very simple sentences, they can themselves, compare the resulting, simple, five words to what John wrote. They can then decide for themselves what is correct.

If you have already done this translation, you can see the answer. Now, tell the readers what the answer is....


4) If you are unwilling or unable to translate these five words for readers
I have already given readers my translation of “The word is a god.” above.
What changes would you make make to my sentence?
What change would John have made if he were writing the phrase "The word is a God."



TO FORUM READERS

I have written exactly the same words as John wrote. Even the order of letters is the same.
MY sentence means "The word was a God." in Greek and it is correct greek.
If my greek (the same as Johns') is correct, then this is the correct way to translate "The word was a God."


Clear
τζεινεσε

 

[JM2C]

Can you trace anyone's genealogy to a mythical character?

You simply cannot trace anyone's genealogy without any proof at all let alone from a mythical character. Are we saying that Muhammad is a myth? If they/Muslims cannot trace Muhammad’s genealogy then he must be a myth. I could trace the Lord Jesus Christ genealogy all the way to Adam and since “there is plenty of evidence in the NT for Jesus divinity” then the only conclusion to that is the Lord Jesus Christ is not a Myth.

 

[outhouse]

Are we saying that Muhammad is a myth?

No he was real, in my opinion

I could trace the Lord Jesus Christ genealogy all the way to Adam

No you cannot.

Many of the characters are probably mythological, many were literary creations.

then the only conclusion to that is the Lord Jesus Christ is not a Myth.

I think he lived and taught Galileans

 

[JM2C]

I have written exactly the same words as John wrote. I wrote them in the same order. My sentence means "The word was a God."

The 3rd clause, the natural word order in Greek as John wrote it in Greek should be “kai theos en ho logos” “and God was the Word”, but you said, “I wrote them in the same order. My sentence means “The word was a God.”. Now, how did you end up with the “a god” if there was no indefinite article in Greek?

If YOU were trying to write "The word was a God." in Koine Greek, would you write it any differently? If you would, then tell the readers how you would write this sentence differently.,

Clear

τζεινεσε

Yes, I would write it differently because I can only write what I’ve read, and that is, “kai theos en ho logos” without the indefinite article. Without the definite article in front of the “theos” does not mean there is an indefinite article in front of “theos”. You need to read and understand all the 3 clauses involve in this verse to be able to conclude correctly.

The reason why John did not place a DEFINITE ARTICLE in front of “GOD” in the 3rd clause is to indicate that “THE WORD” was NOT “THE GOD” in the 2nd clause where it says “AND THE WORD WAS WITH THE GOD”

YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS WHY THERE WAS NO DEFINITE ARTICLE IN THE 3RD CLAUSE.

 

[katiemygirl]

The Bible teaches no such thing. It does not teach, ANYWHERE, that Jesus is God. It does say he is as a god, but not God the Father. God the Almighty. The only one True God. Jesus is the son of the One True God, not God himself. You misunderstand the scriptures, or you take the false teachings of religion to be true. Religions of man are FALSE as Jesus clearly said more than once.

You mean YOUR NWT says Jesus was a god. No credible Bible says such a thing and NEVER did until 1950 when the NWT was published.

Jesus Christ is the Creator of heaven and earth, the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the Ancient of Days, the God of Israel, Jehovah, the Savior, the Everlasting Father, and the Almighty God.

These are the things CREDIBLE Bibles say abput Jesus.

The NWT is a corrupt, sectarian paraphrase, inserting Jehovah into the NT where it never appears in the thousands of extant Greek manuscripts, adding to, taking away from and changing God's word to support their false teachings.

 

[JM2C]

No he was real, in my opinion

As real as what they were teaching I guess.

No you cannot.


Many of the characters are probably mythological, many were literary creations.

I have the bible to prove it.

I think he lived and taught Galileans

There is plenty of evidence in the NT for Jesus divinity. Just because the trinity slowly evolved hundreds of years later, does not mean there is no evidence in support.

 

[outhouse]

I have the bible to prove it.

That is a religious book of theology. Factually not a history book.

The bible was written using rhetoric prose and mythology via pseudo history the Israelites made up.

Israelites did not exist until after 1200 BC. So any character before this time period, has no historicity what so ever.

 

[katiemygirl]

="Servant_of_the_One1, post: 4203217, member: 56651"]The message of Jesus son of Mary was: O children of Israel, worship Allah, My God and Your God.
This message is present in Bible and Quran.

Those who lied about him will meet punishment.


May Allah curse me if iam telling lie about Jesus son of Mary. Thats how sure iam.

Can u make the same supplication?
Say: May God curse me if iam lying about Jesus, amen.

I dare you to say that

Imho, you do not know about Jesus.

Yes, the Bible teaches that we must worship the ONE true God.

"You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve." Luke 4:8

Our heavenly Father, His Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the ONE TRUE GOD. They are ONE, not three gods.

Do you understand what I am saying? When I speak of my Father in heaven, I am speaking about God. When I speak about Jesus, the Son of God, I am speaking about God. When I speak about the Holy Spirit, I am speaking about God. There is only ONE GOD. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE God. Just as when a man and a woman get married, they are ONE flesh. The two become ONE.

Jesus is called God in many places in the Bible.

"Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel, which means 'God is with us.'" (Matthew 1:23)

"But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom."
(Hebrews 1:8)

Neither you nor I have to ask God to curse us if we are lying about Jesus. I assure you, God will destroy those who lie about HIM.

Here is what Jesus taught.

All you need to say is simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. (Matthew 5:37)

 

[katiemygirl]

An interesting day on the forum. We have here

1. a Roman Catholic
2. a Muslim
3. a Jehovah's Witness
4. a possible Mormon
5. 2 non-denominational Christians
6. an Atheist

LOL

 

[JM2C]

That is a religious book of theology. Factually not a history book.

The bible was written using rhetoric prose and mythology via pseudo history the Israelites made up.

Israelites did not exist until after 1200 BC. So any character before this time period, has no historicity what so ever.

Then what is the point of our arguments if I can’t argue from this book, the bible? I cannot sustain my arguments and so are yours without the bible. The only reason you argue is because you think you have the facts about the source of my arguments as false or “factually not a history book” base on your unreliable source.
Now, if you can prove from your source that my source, the bible, is “factually not a history book” then who decides which one is really true if there are only two sides to an argument?

Here is my proof.

Again, I have the bible with consistency from the OT to NT as facts. You said it yourself

There is plenty of evidence in the NT for Jesus divinity. Just because the trinity slowly evolved hundreds of years later, does not mean there is no evidence in support.

The Lord Jesus Christ said, “Before Abraham was born, I am –John 8:58”.

You know Abraham around 2075 BC from Genesis? That’s was long before the 1200 BC that you’re talking about. Did you really think the Israelites made up stories about Abraham? They don't have to because Abraham is all over the bible, from the OT and to the NT. How can one make up stories from 2075 BC to 30 AD if there was no “factual history” to depend it from?
You can’t make up stories like that man.

 

[Katzpur]

An interesting day on the forum. We have here

1. a Roman Catholic
2. a Muslim
3. a Jehovah's Witness
4. a possible Mormon
5. 2 non-denominational Christians
6. an Atheist

LOL

The "possible Mormon" is indeed a Mormon.

 

[Clear]

1) JM2C said (post # 365) - The 3rd clause, the natural word order in Greek as John wrote it in Greek should be “kai theos en ho logos” “and God was the Word”, but you said, “I wrote them in the same order.

Honestly, What would you, as a non-greek reader-writer know about “natural word order” in ancient greek? This aside, “Θεος ην ο λογος” IS the word order John used (and there are no significant manuscript variations on this sentence). When I pointed out that "Ο λογος ην θεος." means exactly the same as "θεος ην ο λογος." I simply repeated the first version. Look back at my note.



2) JM2C said (post # 365) - My sentence means “The word was a God.”. Now, how did you end up with the “a god” if there was no indefinite article in Greek?

It is interesting that you, who cannot read nor translate accurate greek, are trying to teach forum members Greek. Have someone HELP you who CAN read greek.

My sentence means “The word was a God.” Specifically BECAUSE I left out the article. There IS NO “indefinite article in Greek. It doesn't exist. One indicates indefiniteness in Greek by omitting the definite article.

LOOK at your elementary mistakes : You said : “in Greek should be “kai theos en ho logos” “and God was the Word”. In koine greek, the article IS the subject. Thus, your english translation of this simple, five word sentence, is incorrect. In english the Subject MUST come first. One does not say in English, “Blue is the pencil.” but rather, the Subject comes first. “The pencil is blue.” In greek, it does not matter. Have a friend who knows greek, HELP you.



3) JM2C said (post # 365) - “Yes, I would write it differently because I can only write what I’ve read, and that is, “kai theos en ho logos” without the indefinite article.

BUT YOU AREN’T WRITING IT DIFFERENTLY. Your cut and paste is the same.

In writing "The Word is a God." You wrote “Θεος ην ο λογος”. To translate "The Word is a God." I ALSO wrote “θεος ην ο λογος”. This is EXACTLY the same as what John wrote. Your “translation” uses the same words in the same order as mine and the writer of John.



4) JM2C said (post # 365) - Without the definite article in front of the “theos” does not mean there is an indefinite article in front of “theos”.

I very MUCH agree with you here, since, as I've said before, an indefinite article does not even EXIST in greek. ASK someone who reads greek to HELP you.



5) JM2C said (post # 365) - You need to read and understand all the 3 clauses involve in this verse to be able to conclude correctly.

Ah, so, a greek atheist or greek agnostic or greek of any other persuasion but yours would not be able to understand this greek?? Really?




FORUM MEMBERS :
In translating “The word was A God.” into clear greek :

Clear wrote “Θεος ην ο λογος”
JM2C wrote : “Θεος ην ο λογος”.
John 1:1 wrote ”Θεος ην ο λογος”.

Does ANYONE in the forum see any difference? Anyone?
Johns writing can mean either "The God" or "A God". It is that simple, no amount of cutting and pasting of grammarian jargon was ever necessary.


Clear

PS : katiemygirl, Katzpur is correct. I am an adult convert to the LDS / Mormon theological model. I used to have this designation under my avatar but never re-entered it when the forum database changed.

 

[outhouse]

Then what is the point of our arguments if I can’t argue from this book, the bible?

You can argue some history, just not old history.

You can argue theology and doctrine, personal belief and faith.

You can also argue interpretation, as that is where I believe your mistake is. Your giving text a literal interpretation when without education, you don't know if it was allegory or metaphor.

I cannot sustain my arguments and so are yours without the bible

Difference is I study the cultural and social anthropology surrounding the text. You have not.

The only reason you argue is because you think you have the facts about the source of my arguments as false or “factually not a history book” base on your unreliable source.

No, I use academia and universities to justify my position. Not faith.

Now, if you can prove from your source that my source, the bible, is “factually not a history book” then who decides which one is really true if there are only two sides to an argument?

Its not either or.

Some parts are historical while others are mythology, metaphor, and allegory, some are song and poem redacted to text.

Again, I have the bible with consistency from the OT to NT as facts.

No you do not.

You perceive it to be that way, but many would claim this is from a lack of education on these topics.

The Lord Jesus Christ said, “Before Abraham was born, I am –John 8:58”.

No. The unknown authors of John wrote that. Jesus did not write that so we cannot be sure he even said that.

You know Abraham around 2075 BC from Genesis?

Yes I know what the mythology states.

Did you really think the Israelites made up stories about Abraham?

We know they did. Its not even up for debate. They don't even look for any evidence he lived because they know he did not. They gave up a long time ago.

They flat know he was a literary creation.

How can one make up stories from 2075 BC to 30 AD if there was no “factual history” to depend it from?

Your time frame is wrong. Abrahams mythology wasn't finished until the redactions during the Babylonian exile.

After the exile though, much of the book has excellent historical value. Before it gets really dicey.

You can’t make up stories like that man.

Sure you can.

Moses, Noah, and Abraham and his kids, factually have no historicity as written. There is no credible evidence in support they eve existed outside mythology.

The exodus is factually the founding myth of Israelite cultures.


The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Exodus (from Greek ἔξοδος exodos, "going out") is the founding myth of Israel

Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had "given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible 'historical figures'"

Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the figure of Moses as a leader of the Israelites in these events cannot be substantiated

 

[katiemygirl]

The "possible Mormon" is indeed a Mormon.

Hi Katz,
I didn't see you post today. I was referring to Clear, but I was unsure. That's why I said "possible." I know you are Mormon.

This is funny because I thought to myself when I posted about the various religions represented, that you would have your Mormon radar turned on and see my post. I think you must have special beeps on your computer that signal you whenever "mormon" is written in a post. LOL

How's therapy coming along? Still painful?

 

[truthofscripture]

Then prove it isn't true. Take any one paragraph in context and provide scholarly evidence that it isn't true. Pontification is easy, research is hard.

Yes, I cut and paste...a lot. I indent and give the source, all within the rules of this forum. You simply cannot refute what I post so you reply with headless chicken comments.


There are no false teachings in Catholicism and the only proof you have otherwise is your private interpretation of the bible which the Bible teaches against. I refuted the false charge of paganism and because you can't understand it, you dismiss me as playing the victim. What you are saying is Catholics have no right to defend themselves against bigotry and lies.


Hate speech. If you fall for the myths about Constantine you will fall for anything. A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. Does that look familiar? What else did Jesus say about people who credit Satan for God's work?

No, I won't prove it isn't true, and yes, Catholicism is FILLED with falsehoods and pagan rituals and beliefs. I was Catholic most of my early adulthood. The scriptures tell us one thing, and Catholicism tells us another. Nothing Catholicism teaches can be found in the scriptures. The scriptures tell us that clergy are not valid, pagan rituals and beliefs are unclean and abhorrent, and that all religions started by man are false. That fits Catholicism like a hand in a glove. In fact, it fits most religions claiming to be Christian. Galations says any sect is false and is works of the flesh.

 

[katiemygirl]

PS : katiemygirl, Katzpur is correct. I am an adult convert to the LDS / Mormon theological model. I used to have this designation under my avatar but never re-entered it when the forum database changed.

Thank you Clear. I wasn't sure.

Interesting day on the forum.

 

[Orbit]

OMG what happened to my thread?? !!! LOL- 19 pages! I can't slog thru it!
So is the consensus that JWs and Mormons say "Yes, Jesus is God" and others don't?

 

[Kolibri]

OMG what happened to my thread?? !!! LOL- 19 pages! I can't slog thru it!
So is the consensus that JWs and Mormons say "Yes, Jesus is God" and others don't?

Not exactly. At most Jehovah's Witnesses recognize Jesus as a divine being, currently very powerful but not to mistaken for his Father, who is the only being to be All-powerful and without a beginning.
We do not see Jesus as part of a Godhead, but as the person Jehovah has chosen to represent his authority till all enemies, including death inherited from Adam, are done away with.

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Katz,
I didn't see you post today. I was referring to Clear, but I was unsure. That's why I said "possible." I know you are Mormon.

I was actually referring to Clear. He is a convert to Mormonism.

This is funny because I thought to myself when I posted about the various religions represented, that you would have your Mormon radar turned on and see my post. I think you must have special beeps on your computer that signal you whenever "mormon" is written in a post. LOL

I'm just watching this forum and get alerts when someone posts on it.

How's therapy coming along? Still painful?

It's coming along very well! I went from a walker to a cane and now am walking without even the cane. The site of the incision is still tender, but I'm quite amazed that it's only been three weeks. Thanks for asking!