Is Jesus God?

[Katzpur]

Then we have a problem then. Scripture tells us that no man ever has. Plus, scripture tells us that we could never stand in His presence.

Yes, scripture tells us many things, and we as human beings are clearly not going to agree all the time on how they are to be interpreted.

Absolutely not!! That is just humanism speaking.

If you say so. Personally, I believe that God is capable of doing anything He wishes. But there's no need for us to argue about it, is there? I mean, we're not going to agree. I'm just voicing my opinion and you're just voicing yours.

 

[moorea944]

Yes, scripture tells us many things, and we as human beings are clearly not going to agree all the time on how they are to be interpreted.

If you say so. Personally, I believe that God is capable of doing anything He wishes. But there's no need for us to argue about it, is there? I mean, we're not going to agree. I'm just voicing my opinion and you're just voicing yours.

No problem my friend. Have a good day.

 

[Yoshua]

Ok, when you say deity, are saying that Jesus is God? Not sure what your saying here. But this is what I believe in because I actually read this in scripture. Jesus was born a man. I'm not saying that Jesus was a mere man, he wasnt. God was his father and he was also born of a woman. God was working and manifesting Himself through his son. He had the same nature as us which had to be destroyed through death.
I dont believe that Jesus was deity (God), only because scripture doesnt tell us that at all. God gave his son everything. Jesus couldnt do anything without the help of his father. I also dont believe that Jesus is incarnate of the father. "incarnate" is not in the bible, but manifest is. The bible is quite clear that Jesus was a man.

Luke 1:35
35. And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God.

I dont think that's true. Trinitarians believe Jesus is God and that he is equal. Three people in one, yet three, yet one........

Persons, not people. One God exists in three persons.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Absolutely Correct! Jesus WAS in the form of God, but it doesnt MAKE him God. Jesus wanted to be in the "form" or "likeness" of his father. Same with us, we want to be like our creator and his son too. We want to manifest God in our life. We want to manifest his character, but of course we fail. We fail God in two ways..... we sin and we fail to manifest his character. But just because someone is in the form of someone, doesnt make them God. And the are two ways that we DONT sin. We are either dead or immortal.

Also, scripture tells us that Jesus IS the image of God. That is a BIG difference from "being" God. How can the son be the father in the first place?

And... when we get baptized we are now 'in Christ". But that doesnt make us Christ.....

Hi Moorea,

The Son is not the Father for the Father (God) exists in three persons. When we say we are now in Christ, that would mean we became a believer and follower of Christ so we are being baptized—as Christ’s follower, not becoming Jesus Christ.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Yoshua said: ↑
Hi firedragon,

Kindly take note of this:
God exists in three persons. One God (Father) exists in the person of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
It is not 3 in one. We don’t believe in three Gods (Tritheism), that is idolatry.



Could you please give me your definition of the Trinity? ..... Thanks


Peace.

Hi Notaclue,

God exists in three distinct persons as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are divine in nature and equal. Sorry for my recent post, it seems I lack something with my definition.

Thanks

 

[psychoslice]

As we all are God, collectively, Jesus was just a simple man who truly realize this, and we all can truly realize this because we all are collectively are God, its that simple, but sadly religion makes it into a big problem, that we are all told to find out, as long as its the way it should be, according to our beliefs................na, religion is a wast of time.

 

[james2ko]

This makes no sense.



"Creature" is a bad translation. Should be creation. But which creation? Paul says there are two.

1. "The firstborn of all creation" is qualified in verse 18 to be "the firstborn from the dead". Frequently an apparently absolute declaration is limited in application. Consider the following examples in which "all" is clearly to be understood in a restricted sense:
a. ". . . there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed." (Luke 2:1). The "all" refers to the Roman world, not the areas of South, Central and North America.
b. "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers . . ." (John 10:8). The "all" does not refer to John the Baptist and other prophets.
c. See also Gen. 3:20 ("all living" did not include the beasts); Gen. 6:13 ("all flesh" did not include Noah and the creatures taken into the ark.)

2. The creation of which Christ is the first-born is the "creation" of new men and woman, and not the creation of light, dry land, etc. of Genesis. "Create" and "creation" are used of the work of Christ in this regenerative sense. Consider the following:
a. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10 cf. 4:23, 24).
b. ". . . for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace." (Eph. 2:15).

3. The inspired Apostle, employing the Old Testament background of the first-born, is ascribing to Christ his position, rank, and status in the divine purpose. The following is a summary of this background:
a. The first-born succeeded his father as head. (2 Chron. 21:2, 3).
b. He received a double portion of the inheritance. (Deut. 21:17).
c. A younger son could be elevated to the position of first-born if there were personal unworthiness in the eldest. (1 Chron. 5:1).
Adam lost this privilege because of his personal unworthiness, but the last Adam became perfect, through things which he suffered, and inherited the "double portion". He became the "firstfruits of them that slept" - the "firstborn among many brethren" - "the head of the body, the church . . . that in all things he might have the preeminence." (Col. 1:18; 1 Cor. 15:20; Rom. 8:29).

4. "Who is the image of the invisible God." This is an obvious allusion to Gen. 1:26, "Let us make man in our image". Christ who was "full of grace and truth" demonstrated that he was the "image of the invisible God" by his faithfulness to death. In him both earthly and heavenly creatures are "created" because in him they have a new function in the divine purpose. The angels who "minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation" (Heb. 1:14) have been instructed to pay him homage - "let the angels of God worship him." (Heb. 1:6).

5. Colossians 1, rather than supporting the trinitarian doctrine, is opposed to it. Consider the following:
a. If Christ is the "image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15), then he is a replica, not the original.
b. Christ is the "firstborn of every creature". (Col. 1:15). "Firstborn" implies a beginning, therefore Christ is not the "Eternal" Son of God of the trinitarians.

The very next verse refutes point 2 in your interpretation. Thus the rest of the interpretation falls:

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. ​

Paul describes Christ as being both the channel and the purpose (through and for) The Father used to create the very things your interpretation claims He (Christ) did not, ie..light, dry land, etc of Genesis. In other words, Paul is telling us Christ is both the first being (firstborn of all creation --vs 15) created who created the heavens and earth, who later emptied Himself of his divinity (Php 2:6-7), to become the first (firstborn from the dead) human raised to immortality giving us an opportunity to also become immortal (a "new" creature/creation) like Christ.

 

[moorea944]

Luke 1:35
35. And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God.

Persons, not people. One God exists in three persons.

Thanks

Luke 1:35
35. And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God.

Yes, that's exactly what I believe! Plus, this verse tells us that the Holy Spirit is not a person, it is the power of God. Nothing to do with a third person of a so called trinity. God had a son.

Persons, not people. One God exists in three persons.

It's still three people. Plus, who is this third person? I hope your not telling us that the Holy Spirit is a person..... because scripture tells us that it is the power of God. And... if it really was a real person, then the Holy Spirit would be Jesus's father, not God. So the trinity really doesnt make sense, does it.....

 

[moorea944]

The very next verse refutes point 2 in your interpretation. Thus the rest of the interpretation falls:

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. ​

Paul describes Christ as being both the channel and the purpose (through and for) The Father used to create the very things your interpretation claims He (Christ) did not, ie..light, dry land, etc of Genesis. In other words, Paul is telling us Christ is both the first being (firstborn of all creation --vs 15) created who created the heavens and earth, who later emptied Himself of his divinity (Php 2:6-7), to become the first (firstborn from the dead) human raised to immortality giving us an opportunity to also become immortal (a "new" creature/creation) like Christ.

The very next verse refutes point 2 in your interpretation. Thus the rest of the interpretation falls:

Actually it doesnt. Your looking at it differently because you already believe in the pre-existence. But anyhow......

 

[InChrist]

I've put part of your quote in boldface. Would you mind explaining exactly what you mean by these words? I'm particularly confused by the word, "self-existent."

What I mean is that I believe the biblical scriptures indicate that the one Creator God alone has the God attributes of:
omnipotence -all-powerful
omniscience -all knowing
omnipresence -present everywhere,, transcendent (exists outside of space and time). immanence (is present within space and time)
Self-existent- eternally self sustaining with no beginning and no end, an uncreated Being not dependent on any other source for existence but Himself, the I AM.

IOr, let me put it another way: If you were directing your post to C.S. Lewis, after having read his words in my prior post, would you be asking him this same question, or do you believe his statement already addresses your question?

I like a lot of the writings of C.S. Lewis. I can't be totally sure how he was using the words "gods" or "goddesses", but obviously he did not capitalize those words and did put them in quotation marks. for a reason, which would seem to distinguish them from God and this distinction is also made in the Bible. I do certainly believe the scriptures indicate that redeemed believers in Jesus Christ will be transformed, eternally glorified and filled with all the godly character traits of love, joy, peace, compassion, patience, etc. But I do not see that a created being can ever be God as... the eternal uncreated Being of God alone is God.

 

[InChrist]

(I'm not Katz, but putting my input forth).

InChrist: you believe you can have the same characteristics as God, such as; agape love, joy. patience, and others listed in the scriptures as fruits of the Spirit,
Jane: yes.

InChrist: but that you (or any human in general) can never be equal to God,
Jane: yes.

InChrist: as in having the Self-existent omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent nature and essence of God?
Jane: this answer is more complicated, as Mormons have a different view on the essence of God than 'mainstream' Christians. A long discussion will be required before an adequate answer can be given.

Jane: we will also never not have God be our God.

Thanks for your thoughts, Jane Doe.
I do understand that Mormons have a different view of the essence of God. A long discussion is not necessary. I was a Mormon at one time. This difference of view on who God is does make discussion of this sort difficult.

 

[Katzpur]

What I mean is that I believe the biblical scriptures indicate that the one Creator God alone has the God attributes of:
omnipotence -all-powerful
omniscience -all knowing
omnipresence -present everywhere,, transcendent (exists outside of space and time). immanence (is present within space and time)
Self-existent- eternally self sustaining with no beginning and no end, an uncreated Being not dependent on any other source for existence but Himself, the I AM.

Well, for starters, I don't believe that the Bible does say that God is ontologically omnipresent. It suggests, rather, that He is functionally omnipresent. I believe that if God wants to grant me all knowledge and power, I'd have them. Whether He will or not, remains to be seen. Obviously, I will never be self-existent if He created me.

I like a lot of the writings of C.S. Lewis. I can't be totally sure how he was using the words "gods" or "goddesses", but obviously he did not capitalize those words and did put them in quotation marks. for a reason, which would seem to distinguish them from God and this distinction is also made in the Bible. I do certainly believe the scriptures indicate that redeemed believers in Jesus Christ will be transformed, eternally glorified and filled with all the godly character traits of love, joy, peace, compassion, patience, etc. But I do not see that a created being can ever be God as... the eternal uncreated Being of God alone is God.

I believe C.S. Lewis meant exactly what he said, and that was that, if we see Him as our ultimate role model and seek to become as He is, He will make each of us "a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to [Him] perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale)." "On a smaller scale" would certainly imply that we will never be Him nor His equal.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yoshua said: ↑
Hi firedragon,
Kindly take note of this:
God exists in three persons. One God (Father) exists in the person of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
It is not 3 in one. We don’t believe in three Gods (Tritheism), that is idolatry.
Could you please give me your definition of the Trinity? ..... Thanks
Peace.

How does God exist in three persons when God's spirit is Not a person ?
Please notice at Numbers 11:17 and Numbers 11:25 because God's spirit is in the neuter "it".
In grammar rules often a neuter can be used in a gender, but a neuter still remains a neuter.
Even in English we speak of a car or a ship as a ' she ' although it remains as a neuter "it"
KJV at Romans 8:16 and Romans 8:26 used the word ' itself ' for God's spirit. Some translators changed that neuter to the gender himself although originally was a neuter.
God sends forth Not Himself, but sends His spirit - Psalms 104:30

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Then we have a problem then. Scripture tells us that no man ever has. Plus, scripture tells us that we could never stand in His presence.

Besides what is recorded at Exodus 33:20 that No man can see God and live, gospel writer John also believed No man has seen God at any time - John 1:18 A; 1 John 4:12

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What I mean is that I believe the biblical scriptures indicate that the one Creator God alone has the God attributes of:
omnipotence -all-powerful
omniscience -all knowing
omnipresence -present everywhere,, transcendent (exists outside of space and time). immanence (is present within space and time)
Self-existent- eternally self sustaining with no beginning and no end, an uncreated Being not dependent on any other source for existence but Himself, the I AM.
.

How can God be all powerful ominpotent when God can Not lie according to Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18. Can God in His power cheat, be untrustworthy, make you serve Him ?

How can God be all knowing when God with His foreknowledge is flexible being in harmony with a person's gift of free will. God does Not force us to serve Him.

How can God be present everywhere when 1 Kings 8:27,30,34,36; 1 Kings 8:39; 1 Kings 8:49 gives God a specific established location residing in the heavens.

Where did the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus appear before his God according to Hebrews 9:24 ?

Why did you capitalize the word I 'AM' when in Scripture there is No upper-case letters for ' am ' ?
Is " I am " the Tetragrammaton ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

"Creature" is a bad translation. Should be creation. But which creation? Paul says there are two.
1. "The firstborn of all creation" is qualified in verse 18 to be "the firstborn from the dead". Frequently an apparently absolute declaration is limited in application. Consider the following examples in which "all" is clearly to be understood in a restricted sense:
a. ". . . there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed." (Luke 2:1). The "all" refers to the Roman world, not the areas of South, Central and North America.
b. "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers . . ." (John 10:8). The "all" does not refer to John the Baptist and other prophets.
c. See also Gen. 3:20 ("all living" did not include the beasts); Gen. 6:13 ("all flesh" did not include Noah and the creatures taken into the ark.)
2. The creation of which Christ is the first-born is the "creation" of new men and woman, and not the creation of light, dry land, etc. of Genesis. "Create" and "creation" are used of the work of Christ in this regenerative sense. Consider the following:
a. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10 cf. 4:23, 24).
b. ". . . for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace." (Eph. 2:15).
3. The inspired Apostle, employing the Old Testament background of the first-born, is ascribing to Christ his position, rank, and status in the divine purpose. The following is a summary of this background:
a. The first-born succeeded his father as head. (2 Chron. 21:2, 3).
b. He received a double portion of the inheritance. (Deut. 21:17).
c. A younger son could be elevated to the position of first-born if there were personal unworthiness in the eldest. (1 Chron. 5:1).
Adam lost this privilege because of his personal unworthiness, but the last Adam became perfect, through things which he suffered, and inherited the "double portion". He became the "firstfruits of them that slept" - the "firstborn among many brethren" - "the head of the body, the church . . . that in all things he might have the preeminence." (Col. 1:18; 1 Cor. 15:20; Rom. 8:29).
4. "Who is the image of the invisible God." This is an obvious allusion to Gen. 1:26, "Let us make man in our image". Christ who was "full of grace and truth" demonstrated that he was the "image of the invisible God" by his faithfulness to death. In him both earthly and heavenly creatures are "created" because in him they have a new function in the divine purpose. The angels who "minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation" (Heb. 1:14) have been instructed to pay him homage - "let the angels of God worship him." (Heb. 1:6).
5. Colossians 1, rather than supporting the trinitarian doctrine, is opposed to it. Consider the following:
a. If Christ is the "image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15), then he is a replica, not the original.
b. Christ is the "firstborn of every creature". (Col. 1:15). "Firstborn" implies a beginning, therefore Christ is not the "Eternal" Son of God of the trinitarians.

I often use the wording in the KJV translation because of its acceptance. Yes, creation is more accurate over creature - Colossians 1:15 B; Revelation 3:14 B - thanks for bringing that to our attention, and Yes, Colossians 1:15 is NOT supporting a trinity.

And God can Not die - Psalms 90:2, but Jesus died, and after God resurrected the dead Jesus out of biblical hell ( grave ) Acts of the Apostles 2:27,31-32; Acts of the Apostles 13:30,37
then the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus stood before the person of God in heaven - Hebrews 9:24

 

[james2ko]

Actually it doesnt. Your looking at it differently because you already believe in the pre-existence. But anyhow......

I am looking at the text that states in both English and Greek, God created heaven and earth through or by (dia) and for him (Christ) . The phrase "dia autou" also appears in Joh 1:3,10; 3:17 and the reading is the same. Christ is the means and channel of which these acts are performed.

Your reply suggests your beliefs should dictate what the scriptures say, when it should be the other way around- your beliefs should be dictated by the scriptures. I believe the term for this exegetical fallacy is eisegesis.

 

[Notaclue]

Hi Notaclue,

God exists in three distinct persons as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are divine in nature and equal. Sorry for my recent post, it seems I lack something with my definition.

Thanks.


They are divine in nature and equal.


Matt.24: 34. “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.35“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.


nor the Son, but the Father alone.


Mk.13:30. “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 31“Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. 32“But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

nor the Son, but the Father alone.


Acts1:6. So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

which the Father has fixed by His own authority;


Can you tell me why the Son don't know times and epochs?


Peace.

 

[moorea944]

I am looking at the text that states in both English and Greek, God created heaven and earth through or by (dia) and for him (Christ) . The phrase "dia autou" also appears in Joh 1:3,10; 3:17 and the reading is the same. Christ is the means and channel of which these acts are performed.

Your reply suggests your beliefs should dictate what the scriptures say, when it should be the other way around- your beliefs should be dictated by the scriptures. I believe the term for this exegetical fallacy is eisegesis.

I believe the term for this exegetical fallacy is eisegesis.

No offense my friend, but I can tell that Spock was your favorite hero growing up...... Maybe it's time to outgrow it? Just a thought......

 

[james2ko]

No offense my friend, I can tell that Spock was your favorite hero growing up...... Maybe it's time to outgrow it? Just a thought......

I am not, nor was I ever a Star Trek (or is he in Star Wars?) fan. No offense, but instead of hurling personal attacks, you should focus your time and energy in learning the grammar and syntax of the original languages of your bible . Just a thought.