Is Jesus the Jewish messiah?

[Gloone]

Because they didn't want to follow their commandments and live by gods law so god sent them Jesus someone to forgive them all of their sins for wanting to cause chaos and destruction on the earth. They basically turned their backs on the one god that came forth to them by choosing not to follow it.

But Jewish people would rather push the burden on everyone else instead of accepting it or taking the blame for themselves.

 

[waitasec]

Because they didn't want to follow their commandments and live by gods law so god sent them Jesus someone to forgive them all of their sins for wanting to cause chaos and destruction on the earth. They basically turned their backs on the one god that came forth to them by choosing not to follow it.

sorry gloone, i really don't understand how that has anything to do with
why the jews expected a warrior king?

 

[Zardoz]

But Jewish people would rather push the burden on everyone else instead of accepting it or taking the blame for themselves.

You quote yourself and then spew more nonsense?

 

[Levite]

Oh, they knew He was the Messiah. It was just that He was not the top-of-the-world kind of Saviour that they desired. He was an embarrassment to the Jewish religious leadership.

Isaiah 53

Yes, I think we are all familiar with the Christian reading of Isaiah. However, that reading is eisegetic. It's dandy if you're a Christian. But if you're not, it is meaningless.

I have said before, and will say again: Jewish scripture-- all Jewish scripture-- was written by Jews, for Jews, in the Jewish language, for interpretation using Jewish methodologies.

The fact that Christians came along, a thousand years after Isaiah wrote this material for Jews dealing with the Assyrian conquests and the rising threat of Babylonia, and read their own Christian theologies back into the text in order to make Jewish text try to support a profoundly un-Jewish set of ideas, carries no weight in Jewish scholarship.

I can go back, read Shakespeare's Henry V, and decide that when he was speaking of England and France, he actually was talking about the US and Iraq in the twenty-first century, regardless of the fact that he is using language, events, and references specific to his own historical context. But that doesn't make what I say true, or mean that Shakespeare ever had any idea of what might transpire in the twenty-first century.

The simple fact is that the original Hebrew of Isaiah in chapters 51 through 54 (since 53 cannot be read in isolation, being part of a continuous poetic narrative that provides context to the whole) is about all of Israel being redeemed by God's forgiveness, not about a specific messiah. The references to "my servant" are phrased in the poetic Hebrew as a generality. They describe any and all Jews faithful to God, not one specific person. All those torments the "servant" suffers are the indiginities of conquest and persecution all Israel was experiencing during Isaiah's time.

You can read that chapter, as a non-Jew, from after three thousand years, and decide that Isaiah was talking about Jesus and Christianity. But that doesn't make it so, any more than Shakespeare was talking about Iraq.

 

[Levite]

Because they didn't want to follow their commandments and live by gods law so god sent them Jesus someone to forgive them all of their sins for wanting to cause chaos and destruction on the earth. They basically turned their backs on the one god that came forth to them by choosing not to follow it.

Or not. It is the followers of Jesus who don't keep the commandments. And if they do, what are they doing eating all that bacon?

The one and only problem I have with Christianity is supercessionism. If you want to believe in Jesus, great. Have a blast. But the Jesus of the New Testament, and the teachings and scriptures about him, have nothing to do with Jews and Judaism.

We don't waste our time lecturing Christians that Christian doctrine is the rankest heresy according to Judaism. We don't do that because Christians aren't Jewish! It's none of our business! I really don't see why Christians can't have the same modicum of respect for us.

 

[James Humphreys]

Yes, I think we are all familiar with the Christian reading of Isaiah. However, that reading is eisegetic. It's dandy if you're a Christian. But if you're not, it is meaningless.

I have said before, and will say again: Jewish scripture-- all Jewish scripture-- was written by Jews, for Jews, in the Jewish language, for interpretation using Jewish methodologies.

The fact that Christians came along, a thousand years after Isaiah wrote this material for Jews dealing with the Assyrian conquests and the rising threat of Babylonia, and read their own Christian theologies back into the text in order to make Jewish text try to support a profoundly un-Jewish set of ideas, carries no weight in Jewish scholarship.

I can go back, read Shakespeare's Henry V, and decide that when he was speaking of England and France, he actually was talking about the US and Iraq in the twenty-first century, regardless of the fact that he is using language, events, and references specific to his own historical context. But that doesn't make what I say true, or mean that Shakespeare ever had any idea of what might transpire in the twenty-first century.

The simple fact is that the original Hebrew of Isaiah in chapters 51 through 54 (since 53 cannot be read in isolation, being part of a continuous poetic narrative that provides context to the whole) is about all of Israel being redeemed by God's forgiveness, not about a specific messiah. The references to "my servant" are phrased in the poetic Hebrew as a generality. They describe any and all Jews faithful to God, not one specific person. All those torments the "servant" suffers are the indiginities of conquest and persecution all Israel was experiencing during Isaiah's time.

You can read that chapter, as a non-Jew, from after three thousand years, and decide that Isaiah was talking about Jesus and Christianity. But that doesn't make it so, any more than Shakespeare was talking about Iraq.

I think with any prophecy, assuming it is inspired by God, there are at least two levels of meaning, if not more. One is what the author himself had in mind when he wrote (in this case Isaiah 53), and the second is what meaning God was trying to convey, not only for people of that time, but for future generations. In that light, I think Isaiah 53 could refer both to the suffering that righteous Jews might have to undergo, or the nation as whole, as well as the suffering that the Messiah would have to go through, if he were not recognized and so rejected.

Isaiah 9 pictures the Messiah coming in a glorious manner and establishing a righteous kingdom. But, is that a guaranteed conclusion? Don't the people who are living when the Messiah comes have some responsibility? Or, are they just to stand on the sidelines and watch the show unfold? If Isaiah 9 and 53 are both understood as potential Messianic prophecies, perhaps the outcome of which would be fulfilled depended on the response of the Jews. Rejection=Isaiah 53, recognize and welcome=Isaiah 9.

 

[Gloone]

sorry gloone, i really don't understand how that has anything to do with
why the jews expected a warrior king?

What is so hard to understand? Jewish people didn't or don't follow a warrior type god, why would they get a warrior type messiah. Jewish people decided to follow only one god and that god is no warrior.

 

[waitasec]

What is so hard to understand? Jewish people didn't or don't follow a warrior type god, why would they get a warrior type messiah. Jewish people decided to follow only one god and that god is no warrior.

just a word of caution. your reputation is on a slippery slope.
when making these accusations you need to back it up with at least something not just from your opinion. support your opinion.
please explain what king david was...?

it would be interesting to see if you choose to reply to levite, someone that has a clear understanding of the jewish perspective and is well read in the jewish scriptures. it would be interesting to see what you would use to back up this incredible claim.
opcorn:

 

[Gloone]

just a word of caution. your reputation is on a slippery slope.
when making these accusations you need to back it up with at least something not just from your opinion. support your opinion.
please explain what king david was...?

it would be interesting to see if you choose to reply to levite, someone that has a clear understanding of the jewish perspective and is well read in the jewish scriptures. it would be interesting to see what you would use to back up this incredible claim.
opcorn:

You are saying King David is a messiah for Jewish people?

 

[waitasec]

You are saying King David is a messiah for Jewish people?

no,
he was was a warrior king...a precursor for the messiah...

 

[Gloone]

Or not. It is the followers of Jesus who don't keep the commandments. And if they do, what are they doing eating all that bacon?

The one and only problem I have with Christianity is supercessionism. If you want to believe in Jesus, great. Have a blast. But the Jesus of the New Testament, and the teachings and scriptures about him, have nothing to do with Jews and Judaism.

We don't waste our time lecturing Christians that Christian doctrine is the rankest heresy according to Judaism. We don't do that because Christians aren't Jewish! It's none of our business! I really don't see why Christians can't have the same modicum of respect for us.

Jesus has nothing to do with Judaism. If that is the case then I don't take Jewish people to be the kind loving people they portray themselves to be then. Why is it that Judaism feels it has authority over everything else even when it is the most minuscule religion on the planet.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yes, I think we are all familiar with the Christian reading of Isaiah. However, that reading is eisegetic. It's dandy if you're a Christian. But if you're not, it is meaningless.

I have said before, and will say again: Jewish scripture-- all Jewish scripture-- was written by Jews, for Jews, in the Jewish language, for interpretation using Jewish methodologies.

The fact that Christians came along, a thousand years after Isaiah wrote this material for Jews dealing with the Assyrian conquests and the rising threat of Babylonia, and read their own Christian theologies back into the text in order to make Jewish text try to support a profoundly un-Jewish set of ideas, carries no weight in Jewish scholarship.

I can go back, read Shakespeare's Henry V, and decide that when he was speaking of England and France, he actually was talking about the US and Iraq in the twenty-first century, regardless of the fact that he is using language, events, and references specific to his own historical context. But that doesn't make what I say true, or mean that Shakespeare ever had any idea of what might transpire in the twenty-first century.

The simple fact is that the original Hebrew of Isaiah in chapters 51 through 54 (since 53 cannot be read in isolation, being part of a continuous poetic narrative that provides context to the whole) is about all of Israel being redeemed by God's forgiveness, not about a specific messiah. The references to "my servant" are phrased in the poetic Hebrew as a generality. They describe any and all Jews faithful to God, not one specific person. All those torments the "servant" suffers are the indiginities of conquest and persecution all Israel was experiencing during Isaiah's time.

You can read that chapter, as a non-Jew, from after three thousand years, and decide that Isaiah was talking about Jesus and Christianity. But that doesn't make it so, any more than Shakespeare was talking about Iraq.

I read Isaiah as a non-Jew...as a non-theist and realized very early on it had nothing to do with the biblical Yeshua. The Christian translation and interpretation of Isaiah, IMHO, is horrible thus their reading and comprehension of those chapters make no sense.

 

[Levite]

Jesus has nothing to do with Judaism. If that is the case then I don't take Jewish people to be the kind loving people they portray themselves to be then. Why is it that Judaism feels it has authority over everything else even when it is the most minuscule religion on the planet.

Neither of those two statements makes any sense whatsoever.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Why is it that Judaism feels it has authority over everything else even when it is the most minuscule religion on the planet.

What does the size of the religion have to do with anything?

Christianity wouldn't even be what it is today if it weren't for some Jews taking their way of life to the gentiles (pagan worshipers).

Christianity might be the largest religion on the planet but it may also be the most divided.

The fact of the matter is the biblical Yeshua is a Christian Messiah, not the Jewish Messiah. To the Jews, Yeshua did not fulfill the prophecy or meet the requirements for him to be the Messiah.

 

[Gloone]

What does the size of the religion have to do with anything?

Christianity wouldn't even be what it is today if it weren't for some Jews taking their way of life to the gentiles (pagan worshipers).

Christianity might be the largest religion on the planet but it may also be the most divided.

The fact of the matter is the biblical Yeshua is a Christian Messiah, not the Jewish Messiah. To the Jews, Yeshua did not fulfill the prophecy or meet the requirements for him to be the Messiah.

I know that, but the reasons they give for Jesus not meeting the "requirements" is kind of dumb. It is like saying well you are too short and have blond hair so you can't be one of us and drink from same wine as we do. If that isn't someone trying to be authoritative then I don't know what is. Jewish people are not very accepting of other people’s ideals and beliefs, that is all. They think other religions have no real credence.

 

[gnostic]

I know that, but the reasons they give for Jesus not meeting the "requirements" is kind of dumb. It is like saying well you are too short and have blond hair so you can't be one of us and drink from same wine as we do. If that isn't someone trying to be authoritative then I don't know what is. Jewish people are not very accepting of other people’s ideals and beliefs, that is all. They think other religions have no real credence.

But the very same thing can be said about Christianity and Islam too.

There are specific requirements of being the messiah, and the fact remain Jesus didn't fit in that requirement. The only way to see Jesus as a messiah, as described in the OT is through extremely loose interpretation of the Jewish texts. And that precisely what Christians have done.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I know that, but the reasons they give for Jesus not meeting the "requirements" is kind of dumb. It is like saying well you are too short and have blond hair so you can't be one of us and drink from same wine as we do. If that isn't someone trying to be authoritative then I don't know what is. Jewish people are not very accepting of other people’s ideals and beliefs, that is all. They think other religions have no real credence.

I hardly think their reasoning is dumb. Their understanding of what the Messiah was to be to them was known early on. What has become a game changer is Yeshua. His, (what Christians claim), claim to messiahship is a stretch.

 

[Gloone]

I hardly think their reasoning is dumb. Their understanding of what the Messiah was to be to them was known early on. What has become a game changer is Yeshua. His, (what Christians claim), claim to messiahship is a stretch.

Well what are the credentials for their being a Messiah according to Judaism? That there isn't one?

 

[outhouse]

if you looked at historical jesus you would see he was not the jewish messiah,, end of story

he was a traveling jewish teach who was killed for his extreme healing skills and the hellenistic jewish movement that evolved into the christian religion and that sect made him into the deity he is today. in my opinion

we was never the jewish military leader messiah they had predicted would save the jews and return the city forever ish lol

 

[Gloone]

if you looked at historical jesus you would see he was not the jewish messiah,, end of story

he was a traveling jewish teach who was killed for his extreme healing skills and the hellenistic jewish movement that evolved into the christian religion and that sect made him into the deity he is today. in my opinion

we was never the jewish military leader messiah they had predicted would save the jews and return the city forever ish lol

Paganism was so well established. Why did everyone have to resort to this monotheism garbage. I am sick of my pagan heritage being tied down by chains and shackles because some idiots can't understand the concept of god.