Is Jesus the Jewish messiah?

[outhouse]

Paganism was so well established.

if you understand this then why cant you understand christianity copied many of the previous pagan myths with a jewish twist to make it more popular to appeal to the masses [in my opinion]

thats exactly why jews think he is not the messiah. pluse jesus was never the military leader they were looking for to save them

 

[Gloone]

if you understand this then why cant you understand christianity copied many of the previous pagan myths with a jewish twist to make it more popular to appeal to the masses [in my opinion]

thats exactly why jews think he is not the messiah. pluse jesus was never the military leader they were looking for to save them

Christianity could be fake and so could Islam. That doesn't the change the fact that it derived and is the result of Judaism.

 

[outhouse]

yes a because jesus was jewish and so is the OT

doesnt mean jesus was there messiah

 

[Gloone]

yes a because jesus was jewish and so is the OT

doesnt mean jesus was there messiah

And Jesus is not their Messiah because Jewish people don't want peace? I see Jesus as a peaceful person is there something wrong with that? The only reason Jesus isn't a Jewish Messiah is because Jewish people say he isn't.

 

[outhouse]

And Jesus is not their Messiah because Jewish people don't want peace?

thats not the point and you know it, there messiah i said to be a military leader in a few passages.

The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

I see Jesus as a peaceful person is there something wrong with that?

nope thats fine

Jewish people say he isn't.

and who would be the best judge, much of the christion myth was taken from the OT by the christians in my opinion as well as pagan myths

 

[Gloone]

thats not the point and you know it, there messiah i said to be a military leader in a few passages.

The gospels (especially Matthew 21:4 and John 12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 9:9. But the next few verses (Zechariah 9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army nor a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

Since you want to keep bringing up mythology, I am having a hard time understanding what distinguishes that from prophecy. I find the ancient concepts of heaven and hell to be very real.

and who would be the best judge, much of the christion myth was taken from the OT by the christians in my opinion as well as pagan myths

You say christian myth, does that mean Jewish text like the Torah is just myth too. Where does the Jewish literature get its credibility from?

 

[Gloone]

and who would be the best judge

Seeing how people are only mortals I would say God would be the better one to judge that than Jewish people.

 

[outhouse]

Where does the Jewish literature get its credibility from?

who says its credibal?

 

[xkatz]

G-d and/or the Messiah is not a zombie, therefore, Jesus cannot be the Messiah because he was zombie due to the resurrection.

(In all seriousness though, he did not satisfy the Jewish description of the Messiah)

 

[Gloone]

G-d and/or the Messiah is not a zombie, therefore, Jesus cannot be the Messiah because he was zombie due to the resurrection.

(In all seriousness though, he did not satisfy the Jewish description of the Messiah)

What is the Jewish Description and why do the Jewish people have any say so over the type of Messiah they get? As of right now it is hard to believe they have any. Either the Jewish people have failed their god or their god has failed them. Which is it?

 

[xkatz]

What is the Jewish Description and why do the Jewish people have any say so over the type of Messiah they get?

Well the Jewish Messiah cannot be G-d for one. The Messiah is not in anyway divine. With the coming of the Messiah there shall be peace upon Earth for sometime, all Jewish people will return to Israel, the Temple shall be rebuilt, and all Jews will obey the G-d's commandments. Jewish people do not have any say over the Messiah, since it is all pretty much in the Tanakh.

Either the Jewish people have failed their god or their god has failed them. Which is it?

Neither. G-d has never failed us. Through our faith and our good deeds, G-d has allowed the Jewish people and consequently Judaism to overcome all odds, despite years of exile, hardship, and some assimilation into other cultures. And in return, most of use have not failed G-d, as we try to be good people who do mitzvot.

 

[Gloone]

Well the Jewish Messiah cannot be G-d for one. The Messiah is not in anyway divine. With the coming of the Messiah there shall be peace upon Earth for sometime, all Jewish people will return to Israel, the Temple shall be rebuilt, and all Jews will obey the G-d's commandments. Jewish people do not have any say over the Messiah, since it is all pretty much in the Tanakh.

Neither. G-d has neither failed us. Through our faith and our good deeds, G-d has allowed the Jewish people and consequently Judaism to overcome all odds, despite years of exile, hardship, and some assimilation into other cultures.

Okay well this is a serious question and I hope you answer it seriously.
Do you think it is appropriate for Jewish people to wait around for a Messiah instead of just letting it go or letting it be. When the time comes it comes. Why pray for it?

 

[waitasec]

What is the Jewish Description and why do the Jewish people have any say so over the type of Messiah they get? As of right now it is hard to believe they have any. Either the Jewish people have failed their god or their god has failed them. Which is it?

many jews stopped following judaism after the holocaust because they had to reconcile what happened...

i found this article

"The Holocaust not only decimated the centers of Jewish practice and the schools of rabbinic interpretation in Europe—the Holocaust led Jews to begin to ask questions that had been unutterable since the time of the Temple: who is the God of the Jews? What relation does this God have to my daily life? Will this God answer my personal prayers? God had to become a presence after the Holocaust if the survivors were to believe in God's existence. Survivors either abandoned theology or else demanded a personal God at whom they could rage, with whom they could argue, to whom they could pray. Defining a God through practice and ritual was no longer enough."

Tikkun Magazine - The End of Judaism?

 

[xkatz]

Do you think it is appropriate for Jewish people to wait around for a Messiah instead of just letting it go or letting it be. When the time comes it comes. Why pray for it?

I think it's worth the wait. I personally don't pray for it- as it bound to happen since it has been for-seen.

 

[Gloone]

I think it's worth the wait. I personally don't pray for it- as it bound to happen since it has been for-seen.

Things that are foreseen are not always good things. Sometimes they are bad.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

What is the Jewish Description and why do the Jewish people have any say so over the type of Messiah they get? As of right now it is hard to believe they have any.

Gives the Jews some credit will you? Yeshua is said to be the Messiah, according to Christians, and one must wonder how they can tell that he was. The making Yeshua into the Messiah is by use of the OT scriptures so we must conclude the Jews DO have a criteria as to whom the Messiah will be. Here's the criteria.....

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

Either the Jewish people have failed their god or their god has failed them. Which is it?

Be careful....Some will accuse you of standing in judgment.

 

[Levite]

Originally Posted by Gloone
Either the Jewish people have failed their god or their god has failed them. Which is it?

Be careful....Some will accuse you of standing in judgment.

Yes, like me. I will make that accusation.

Who are you to say either that God has failed the Jews or that the Jews have failed God?

At the very least, I would think that to make such a statement credibly, you would have to be either God or a Jew. Since you are neither, saying such a thing seems incredibly presumptuous.

And since you are not a Jew, why on earth do you care about the private relationship of God and the Jewish people? Presumably, God has some sort of relationship with Christianity, or whatever faith tradition you come from: why not worry about that instead of the business of the Jews?

And considering the topic of this thread, I am at a complete loss to understand why you seem to think it logically follows that, since Jews do not believe in the messiahdom or the divinity of Jesus, that means God has somehow failed to deliver on the promise of a messiah. First of all, no date was ever given with that promise, that we might be concerned has passed, or is soon approaching. And second of all, why should Jesus be different: there have been many false messiahs. Hell, in Jesus' time, you couldn't pass a streetcorner in ancient Israel that didn't have some guy on it claiming to be the messiah. Christians, in their surety of Jesus' claim, often tend to forget that he was hardly unique in those claims. Ancient Israel was littered with shaggy, dirt-poor Jews-- and some shaggy richer Jews also-- claiming that God wanted them to redeem the people. They were a dime a dozen, and they all had a bunch of disciples following along behind them affirming their claims.

The fact that after he was dead, a bunch of non-Jews decided that Jesus actually was the guy, has no relevance to the fact that he was merely one of many who claimed, and none fulfilled the conditions of messiahdom: the yoke of non-Jewish rule was not thrown off, the Temple was not rededicated and purified, the Exiles did not return, the Davidic monarchy was not reinstated, etc. Jesus may have been a warm-hearted, peaceloving joe who wanted everyone to love one another, and if so, that's very nice: but those aren't qualifications for messiahdom, just for being a good guy.

The messiah hasn't come yet. But part of being Jewish is that we wait, and while we wait, we do our part to transform this world into something closer to the healed world that will be the messiah's world. Maimonides put it very nicely:
אני מאמין באמונה שלמה בביאת המשיח ואף על פי שיתמהמה: עם כל זה אחכה לו בכל יום שיבוא
I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the messiah, even though he tarries: despite this, I will wait each day for his coming.

What on earth Jesus has to do with that is really beyond my ken. It would only make some difference if we thought he had been the messiah: we don't. So it doesn't.

 

[Gloone]

Gives the Jews some credit will you? Yeshua is said to be the Messiah, according to Christians, and one must wonder how they can tell that he was. The making Yeshua into the Messiah is by use of the OT scriptures so we must conclude the Jews DO have a criteria as to whom the Messiah will be. Here's the criteria.....

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

That is nice but how is a Messiah to be born and be a descendant of King David when he lived 3,000+ years ago?

Be careful....Some will accuse you of standing in judgment.

Well to bad.

 

[Gloone]

What on earth Jesus has to do with that is really beyond my ken. It would only make some difference if we thought he had been the messiah: we don't. So it doesn't.

You are right there is too big of a gap between King David and Jesus so there is no possible way he could be a Messiah or Savior or King of anything.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

That is nice but how is a Messiah to be born and be a descendant of King David when he lived 3,000+ years ago?

You charged that there was no criteria and yet I just gave you a link that describes whom the messiah should be. It's from the Jews using the criteria found in the OT. Yeshua didn't meet that criteria but to answer your question just check your reply to Levite.