Is Jesus the Son of God?

[Kemosloby]

There is only one way i can look at that Surah logically, that it is challenging the usage of 'they', which is why i highlighted those as well....

You see as we know from all the Biblical text, it was preordained, that all of it would happen a certain way....

So when the Pharisees/Rabbinic Jews have gone around proclaiming they murdered him; the Quran is correcting it, and saying 'nope, God raised him up', and 'you didn't have any authority to do anything more than God granted'.

It says kill not murder, As if Christ never was killed and raised from the dead. That's what raised my eyebrow to it.

But does fate excuse us from our actions? Judas' actions and fate was also preordained but that didn't seem make it any better for him in the end. Perhaps they'd have been better off thinking they murdered him and feeling sorry about it?

 

[wizanda]

Perhaps they'd have been better off thinking they murdered him and feeling sorry about it?

Hosea 5:15 I will go and return to my place, until they acknowledge their offense, and seek my face. In their affliction they will seek me earnestly.”

 

[paarsurrey]

The koran says that? How the heck could it have only "appeared" that they crucified someone? Common sense dictates that there was no question they crucified someone, who they seemed sure was the Messiah.

Correct translation of the verse is the following:

[4:157] And for their saying, `We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of ALLAH;' whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.

http://www.quranbrowser.org
Quran translation by Sher Ali

Jesus was put on the Cross to kill him, but was delivered from the Cross in near-dead position.
It appeared to them that he had died, but he was not dead yet. This phenomenon is describe in the verse.
Please
Regards

 

[Kemosloby]

Hosea 5:15 I will go and return to my place, until they acknowledge their offense, and seek my face. In their affliction they will seek me earnestly.”

That seems to say the same thing as the bible seems to say, at the end all the Jews turn to Jesus.

 

[wizanda]

at the end all the Jews turn to Jesus.

Only those who accept the Marvelous Work (Revelation 15:3), are to remain after the Tribulation....Those who reject Yeshua (Salvation), prove the point they weren't worthy.

 

[Kemosloby]

Only those who accept the Marvelous Work (Revelation 15:3), are to remain after the Tribulation....Those who reject Yeshua (Salvation), prove the point they weren't worthy.

Not so much that they aren't worthy. I've been getting the impression of this. If Jesus is so very much like God the Father in nature, any who don't like Jesus won't like the Father either.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

The Christians belief that Jesus is literally the Son of God. Is this possible? Is there a better way of considering this core Christian belief?

I do believe he is the son of god. Some believe jesus and god are one. But I question some christians how did Mary get pregnant. I also question how jesus is his own father.
It is another reason why I am not a christian. Christianity itself can be confusing.

 

[roger1440]

To what extent do you thing the designation "Son of God" assists us to understand the Divine Reality of Jesus, and at what point can our interpretations of Sacred texts obscure or distort that reality?

When a reader of the Gospels refuses to read them within the confines of the symbolism in Jewish scripture the Gospels become greatly distorted. The concept of the “son of God” and the “virgin birth” are linked together using familiar building blocks of symbols and metaphors found in Jewish scripture. The newness of the Gospels comes from not new building blocks but the arrangement of these building blocks and how they relate to one another.

If a person starts a journey slightly off course, the more he travels down that path, the more off course he gets. In the very first chapter of the very first book of the New Testament the author mentions the virgin birth of Jesus. If the reader misunderstands the meaning of the virgin birth then as the reader continues to read the book the more and more he will misunderstand.

To ask how Jesus is the son of God is jumping the gun. First a person must understand how Israel is God’s first born son then move on to how Jesus is God’s son.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I do believe he is the son of god. Some believe jesus and god are one. But I question some christians how did Mary get pregnant. I also question how jesus is his own father.
It is another reason why I am not a christian. Christianity itself can be confusing.

Thank you for contributing to this thread. Christianity can be confusing and in regards to this specific issue it requires Faith in the Divine mystery of the virgin birth. That's not an easy place to be for everyone but a place I'm comfortable with.

How did you end up a Satanist? I'm a Baha'i so some Christians think I follow Satan! Baha'is don't believe in a literal Satan and that he is a symbol for the lower nature of man.

Best Wishes

 

[Dawnofhope]

When a reader of the Gospels refuses to read them within the confines of the symbolism in Jewish scripture the Gospels become greatly distorted. The concept of the “son of God” and the “virgin birth” are linked together using familiar building blocks of symbols and metaphors found in Jewish scripture. The newness of the Gospels comes from not new building blocks but the arrangement of these building blocks and how they relate to one another.

If a person starts a journey slightly off course, the more he travels down that path, the more off course he gets. In the very first chapter of the very first book of the New Testament the author mentions the virgin birth of Jesus. If the reader misunderstands the meaning of the virgin birth then as the reader continues to read the book the more and more he will misunderstand.

To ask how Jesus is the son of God is jumping the gun. First a person must understand how Israel is God’s first born son then move on to how Jesus is God’s son.

Good to see the spirit of the Christian apologist in you!

I tend to start with the most recent religion that has Teachings that are most relevant to the age in which we live, with fewer translation problems, and from a culture that is more readily comprehensible because its not thousands of years ago. From that point I work back. Otherwise I might confine myself to the theological world for an age that no longer exists.

So how might that work?
"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost...” Shoghi Effendi

So lets look at the key verses:

In Mathew 1:18-25 it is written:
"This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
”The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”-- which means, “God with us.”
When Joseph awoke, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

We also consider
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that however believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life." John 3:16
This is important to contrast with the quote we are all sons of God. The significance of this quotation is the unique role of Jesus to humanity as distinct from other humans.

Then a review of the Gospels we find 'Son of God' mentioned about 30 times in the synoptic gospels.
On the other hand the phrase "Son of man" is mentioned 81 times!
Son of man (Christianity) - Wikipedia

In considering Old Testament themes:
1) the seed of the woman would crush the seed of the serpent in Gen 3. That opens the door to a virgin birth?
2) a son of is like the same kind or Divine in some sense.
3) we see a strong 'Son of God' motif with the promise to King David (and his descendants like Solomon) where God will be his Father and it gets carried through the Psalms as well.
4) In the fiery furnace in the story of Daniel accompanied by his 3 friends the Babylonians saw a 4th person and he was like a 'son of God'
5) Jesus is the root and offspring of David

Then bringing it together and considering comparative religion:

(1) The idea that Jesus is physically or literally the Son of God is derived from the "Son of God" designation that appears throughout the Gospels but also in other New and Old Testament texts.
(2) It is a designation that highlights the Uniqueness and Greatness of Jesus when compared to the rest of humanity.
(3) However other religions may also have different designations such as Muhammad being the seal of the prophets or Baha'u'llah being the Glory of God. These different designations may serve a similar purpose to highlight the Uniqueness of a particular Man who Manifests God's Greatness with a Revelation that transforms communities, traditions, and morals.
(4) There is an underlying unity in all the Great Prophets or Manifestations of God.

So that's a summary of this thread to date.

What do you feel I have missed?

 

[Ben Avraham]

So the son of God designation is highly significant in regards to Jewish theology but Paul had a theology that reflected Greco-Roman culture. Would the resurrection of Jesus be an example of that in your opinion? Any other examples you can think of?

Yes, the so called resurrection of Jesus was according to the gospel of Paul as he himself declared in II Timothy 2:8. As the Jew that Jesus was, he would go according to the Prophets if you read II Samuel 12:23; Psalm 49:12,20; Isaiah 26:14; and Job 7:9. Just another example to honor you question, we have the Greek doctrine of the demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman which is promoted in Matthew 1:18 as Jesus is claimed to have been the son of God with Mary. That's a no no as Judaism is concerned.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Thank you for clarifying your views. So Jesus is not the "Son of God" in any sense for you? I respect your views. Being aware of the theology of the Tanach, how much do you think Pauls theology reflected Greco-Roman culture, and how much Jewish theology?

I did not say that Jesus is not the son of God in any sense. Jesus was indeed part of the Son of God in the sense that he was a Jew, part of the People of Israel if you read Exodus 4:22,23. What I meant was in the sense of the individual concept of being Son of God.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

Thank you for contributing to this thread. Christianity can be confusing and in regards to this specific issue it requires Faith in the Divine mystery of the virgin birth. That's not an easy place to be for everyone but a place I'm comfortable with.

Oh I see. I don't exactly believe it was a virgin a birth though. I doubt it is even possible. Mary was 12 when god got her pregnant.

How did you end up a Satanist? I'm a Baha'i so some Christians think I follow Satan! Baha'is don't believe in a literal Satan and that he is a symbol for the lower nature of man.

Back in September 5th, 2012 Lucifer introduced himself to me. It is quite interesting.
I never heard of Baha'is before. So it is like Satanism?

 

[Muffled]

Is the view that Jesus literally wasn't crucified held by ALL Muslims? If so, why?

I believe it is because the text says so but I believe they have misconstrued God's intention in saying so and the context and Biblical context should be taken into account.

 

[Muffled]

Not a single Muslim believes that Jesus died on the Cross. Has one seen a Muslim who believes that Jesus died on the Cross. Please
Quran clearly mentions it, no ambiguity in it.
Regards

There is a great deal of ambiguity but Muslims have failed to see that because they are not willing to accept the Biblical account. It is not to a Muslim's credit that he ignores the word of God.

 

[Muffled]

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:30

That is about his Second Coming, which has already taken place as the Promised Messiah 1835-1908.
Please
Regards

I believe that to be incorrect. Jesus ha not yet returned.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Back in September 5th, 2012 Lucifer introduced himself to me. It is quite interesting.
I never heard of Baha'is before. So it is like Satanism?

That sounds like quite an experience. I believed in Satan many years ago briefly when I was a Christian but was going through a difficult time. Baha'is don't believe in Satan.

 

[Luciferi Baphomet]

That sounds like quite an experience. I believed in Satan many years ago briefly when I was a Christian but was going through a difficult time. Baha'is don't believe in Satan.

Ah ok then. Quite interesting btw.

 

[Repox]

The Christians belief that Jesus is literally the Son of God. Is this possible? Is there a better way of considering this core Christian belief?

Having doubts about the NT gospels, I've done some research. If you study the Jesus movement, which happened after Jesus was killed, you find Jesus was not called the son of God until about 30 to 50 years after the death of Jesus. Also, you don't find the crucifixion mentioned until about the same time. I believe Jesus was God, and there is no son of God, and there was no crucifixion of Jesus. There is no Trinity. How could the Trinity be eternal when the son had a beginning? I believe Jesus followers misinterpreted Jesus. Rather than seeing the duality of God, they saw father and son.

Early Christians needed a sacrificial lamb story to promote their new religion. It took off when Jesus, the man and son of God, was added. It is human to identify with a man or human like oneself rather than an "aloof" deity. It is also a better recruiting tool, people want to think of themselves as a deity, or a son of God, which was proposed by Paul when he declared Jesus to be our brother.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Having doubts about the NT gospels, I've done some research. If you study the Jesus movement, which happened after Jesus was killed, you find Jesus was not called the son of God until about 30 to 50 years after the death of Jesus. Also, you don't find the crucifixion mentioned until about the same time.

There is clearly uncertainty and differences of opinion about authorship and dates the Gospels were written. There are people on RF much more able to review and comment on such issues. Then there are potential problems with translations.

Regardless, I am comfortable with the authority and authenticity of the Gospels. This is the mutually agreed starting point for most discussions with Christians. I am a Baha'i so always need to emphasise that I believe in the same God, Jesus, and Gospels as the Christians. The Bahai writings strongly support this position.

Having said that I'm always interested to hear different viewpoints with reasons, regardless of whether or not they accord with my own views.

I believe Jesus was God, and there is no son of God, and there was no crucifixion of Jesus. There is no Trinity. How could the Trinity be eternal when the son had a beginning? I believe Jesus followers misinterpreted Jesus. Rather than seeing the duality of God, they saw father and son.

What is the starting point for you if not the Gospels?