Is Jesus the Son of God?

[wizanda]

There is nothing in the above verse that mentions that Jesus was to die on the Cross.

4:157 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so!!!!!!!!...

Stop contradicting the Quran to prove a point, it is beyond ridiculous.

 

[paarsurrey]

19:33 And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive.

3:55 And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to cause you to die and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

5:117 I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou were the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.

Just because you misunderstand this one Surah, why not read the rest of the Quran and Bible; he was prophesied to be put to death as God allowed it.....

4:157-158 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. No indeed, Allah raised him up to Him; and Allah has been Ever-Mighty, Ever-Wise.

You need to take into account what this actually says, God was the one who allowed it, it wasn't their doing, they'd have had no authority unless it was permitted.

"19:33 And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive.

3:55 And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to cause you to die and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed."

So, one has accepted that the the first two verses of Quran quoted by one namely, Verse 19:33 and 3:55, and given above do not mention that Jesus died or had to die on the Cross, so that we could move to the third one, being on one page. Please
Right? Please
Regards

 

[wizanda]

Right?

Not repeating myself anymore, you've got something wrong with your reading abilities, so it is a waste of time me using written words.

 

[paarsurrey]

Not repeating myself anymore, you've got something wrong with your reading abilities, so it is a waste of time me using written words.

So, one means that we should discuss the next verse in one's list. Right? Please
Regards

 

[Muffled]

Thank you again. I feel there are problems with the Trinity Doctrine and plan to explore this in a new thread soon.

I believe there have been a myriad of threads on this topic. A search would find them for you. I come in on the side of The Trinity.

 

[Muffled]

But not even Mary was born then. How could the Christian-God could be there to command. Right? Please
Does one mean here YHVH (Yahweh), the Jewish-God? Please
Regards

I believe there is only one God. Call Him different names if you like but that doesn't change Him one bit.

I believe that is inconsequential. In case the big word flusters you, I mean that God precedes Mary and Jesus. Jesus is what God is doing in the fullness of time.

 

[rusra02]

The Christians belief that Jesus is literally the Son of God. Is this possible? Is there a better way of considering this core Christian belief?

Like what?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Like what?

I posted this earlier in the thread:

(1) The idea that Jesus is physically or literally the Son of God is derived from the "Son of God" designation that appears throughout the Gospels but also in other New and Old Testament texts.

(2) It is a designation that highlights the Uniqueness and Greatness of Jesus when compared to the rest of humanity.

(3) However other religions may also have different designations such as Muhammad being the seal of the prophets or Baha'u'llah being the Glory of God. These different designations may serve a similar purpose to highlight the Uniqueness of a particular Man who Manifests God's Greatness with a Revelation that transforms communities, traditions, and morals.

(4) There is an underlying unity in all the Great Prophets or Manifestations of God.


"Christ ratified and proclaimed the foundation of the law of Moses. Muhammad and all the prophets have revoiced that same foundation of reality. Therefore the purposes and accomplishments of the divine messengers have been one and the same. . . ."

"The mission of the prophets, the revelation of the holy books, the manifestation of the heavenly teachers and the purpose of divine philosophy all center in the training of the human realities so that they may become clear and pure as mirrors and reflect the light and love of the Sun of Reality."

"The function and purpose of a shepherd is to gather and not disperse his flock. The prophets of God have been divine shepherds of humanity. They have established a bond of love and unity among mankind, made scattered peoples one nation and wandering tribes a mighty kingdom. They have laid the foundation of the oneness of God and summoned all to universal peace."
All quotes from the Baha'i writings

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe there have been a myriad of threads on this topic. A search would find them for you. I come in on the side of The Trinity.

This is an opportunity to examine again this central Christian belief. I am a Baha'i so approach it from a different perspective that emphasizes the underlying unity of all The prophets that have Revealed a New Message from God. Please see post #188 above.

The Trinity is fine providing there is clarity between what is meant by "The Father", "The Son", and "The Holy Spirit". Often that clarity is lacking.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So, one means that we should discuss the next verse in one's list. Right? Please
Regards

Is the view that Jesus literally wasn't crucified held by ALL Muslims? If so, why?

 

[paarsurrey]

Is the view that Jesus literally wasn't crucified held by ALL Muslims? If so, why?

Not a single Muslim believes that Jesus died on the Cross. Has one seen a Muslim who believes that Jesus died on the Cross. Please
Quran clearly mentions it, no ambiguity in it.
Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

Not a single Muslim believes that Jesus died on the Cross. Has one seen a Muslim who believes that Jesus died on the Cross. Please
Quran clearly mentions it, no ambiguity in it.
Regards

Interesting dilemma because I suspect most, if not all Christians believe that Jesus was crucified.

On the Mount of Olives Jesus spoke these words about His coming:
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:30

One understanding of this could be that the clouds of power are religious traditions that cause our thinking to become rigid and based on what religious leaders and scholars teach. The problem is like in the times of Christ these leaders had lost the spirit of their Faith. This could apply equally to both Christians and Muslims.

What we believe to be certain and true may be the biggest barrier to recognising the Spirit of Truth.

Best Wishes

 

[paarsurrey]

Interesting dilemma because I suspect most, if not all Christians believe that Jesus was crucified.

On the Mount of Olives Jesus spoke these words about His coming:
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:30

One understanding of this could be that the clouds of power are religious traditions that cause our thinking to become rigid and based on what religious leaders and scholars teach. The problem is like in the times of Christ these leaders had lost the spirit of their Faith. This could apply equally to both Christians and Muslims.

What we believe to be certain and true may be the biggest barrier to recognising the Spirit of Truth.

Best Wishes

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:30

That is about his Second Coming, which has already taken place as the Promised Messiah 1835-1908.
Please
Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Matthew 24:30

That is about his Second Coming, which has already taken place as the Promised Messiah 1835-1908.
Please
Regards

It is about the return of Christ. The reason I have used the quote is to emphasise how traditions around religion, for example through some religious leaders and scholars, can cause barriers. We have then have teachings that prevent us from seeing the truth and result in spiritual blindness.

I never mentioned any dates and I'm not sure where 1835 - 1908 have come from. Perhaps you are considering the Baha'i claims for fulfilment of this prophecy in which case 1844 and 1863 would be more correct.

 

[paarsurrey]

It is about the return of Christ. The reason I have used the quote is to emphasise how traditions around religion, for example through some religious leaders and scholars, can cause barriers. We have then have teachings that prevent us from seeing the truth and result in spiritual blindness.
I never mentioned any dates and I'm not sure where 1835 - 1908 have come from. Perhaps you are considering the Baha'i claims for fulfilment of this prophecy in which case 1844 and 1863 would be more correct.

1835-1908 is the life span of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

1835-1908 is the life span of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
Regards

Very interesting! Another Mahdi claimant like Siyyid Ali-Muhammad (the Bab) 1819-1850. Are you a follower?

 

[paarsurrey]

Very interesting! Another Mahdi claimant like Siyyid Ali-Muhammad (the Bab) 1819-1850. Are you a follower?

I am a follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908. He was the End-Time Reformer of all revealed religions, Judaism, Christianity, Dharmic Religions (known as Hinduism), Buddha's Religion, Zoroaster's Religion etc
Please
Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

I am a follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908. He was the End-Time Reformer of all revealed religions, Judaism, Christianity, Dharmic Religions (known as Hinduism), Buddha's Religion, Zoroaster's Religion etc
Please
Regards

And I am a Baha'i that is based on similar religious reformers - The Bab and Baha'u'llah at the same time in history. I like that you are concerned with exploring the underlying unity of religions.

 

[Kemosloby]

4:157 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so!!!!!!!!...

Stop contradicting the Quran to prove a point, it is beyond ridiculous.

The koran says that? How the heck could it have only "appeared" that they crucified someone? Common sense dictates that there was no question they crucified someone, who they seemed sure was the Messiah.

 

[wizanda]

How the heck could it have only "appeared" that they crucified someone?

There is only one way i can look at that Surah logically, that it is challenging the usage of 'they', which is why i highlighted those as well....

You see as we know from all the Biblical text, it was preordained, that all of it would happen a certain way....

So when the Pharisees/Rabbinic Jews have gone around proclaiming they murdered him; the Quran is correcting it, and saying 'nope, God raised him up', and 'you didn't have any authority to do anything more than God granted'.