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Is logic over-rated?

ravenstrike

Court Jester
These atrocities were not logical, they were done from hate of a race. How can you attribute senseless killing to reason? How? REASON would dictate that the highest value we can have is life, and thus disarms violence! Let us look at religion, shall we? Flaws made evident by even the most basic common sense are plastered over by liberal applications of groundless faith, and thus they require violence to enforce belief. Wether we are tearing open human chest cavities to ensure that the sun will rise, or cutting the throat of a lamb, something must be done. If a person gets angry, then he is clearly not thinking reasonably, is he? Terry Goodkind stated the "Passion rules reason". We see evidence of this every day!
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
The national socialists were RUTHLESS not without logic.

If you have difficulty with the concept look up ruthless:
ruthless

Main Entry: ruth·less Pronunciation: \&#712;rüth-l&#601;s also &#712;ru&#775;th-\ Function: adjective Date: 14th century : having no pity : merciless, cruel <a ruthless tyrant> .

Logic may or may not contain mercy.

Regards,
Scott
 

mudge991

Member
What about violence that is regarded by the perpetrator as sensible because it flows from their reason and logic ?

Thats what I think! Hitler was doing what he thought was right, and was backed by Popes as he was doing it. Heck, there are pics of popes at his birthday celebrations. Most people are convinced they are doing "right" when persuing thier cause. Even the bible advocates wholesale murder.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Thats what I think! Hitler was doing what he thought was right, and was backed by Popes as he was doing it. Heck, there are pics of popes at his birthday celebrations. Most people are convinced they are doing "right" when persuing thier cause. Even the bible advocates wholesale murder.

A case can be made that the Pope of the time did indeed use his assets to help Jews of Europe, but he could have done better for sure. It was POLITICS that kept him from doing more.

There are no pictures of a Pope at a Hitler birthday party, but there are pictures of Hitler with the Bishops and cardinals of his time. A Roman Catholic cardinal was instrumental in getting the Austrians to vote for amalgamation into the Third Reich.

Hitler was carefully taught to blame Jews for Germany's defeat in World War One, and he was very quick to fasten on Jews as scapegoats for the political influence it gave him to pick out an "enemy" for Germans to rally against. Again it was politics not philosophy or religion that cause the holocaust.

Regards,
Scott
 

Fluffy

A fool
At the end of the day, if you reject logic then you reduce your message to nonsense. Logic has no more to do with atheism than it does with theism since both sides must utilise it if they wish to remain meaningful. In fact, it is meaningless to say "I reject logic" since that only has meaning if you first accept logic. The connection between a sentence and its meaning is a logical one.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Logic can be impeccable, but assumptions wrong. Muslims are the ultimate evil, therefore they must be eliminated. Good logic, bad assumption.
 

mudge991

Member
A case can be made that the Pope of the time did indeed use his assets to help Jews of Europe, but he could have done better for sure. It was POLITICS that kept him from doing more.

There are no pictures of a Pope at a Hitler birthday party, but there are pictures of Hitler with the Bishops and cardinals of his time. A Roman Catholic cardinal was instrumental in getting the Austrians to vote for amalgamation into the Third Reich.

Hitler was carefully taught to blame Jews for Germany's defeat in World War One, and he was very quick to fasten on Jews as scapegoats for the political influence it gave him to pick out an "enemy" for Germans to rally against. Again it was politics not philosophy or religion that cause the holocaust.

Regards,
Scott

Yeah, the holocaust had nothing to do with Jews/religion, it was those pesky democrats.
As for Hitler, you know very well he was supported by the church, and was endorsed by them. Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.

As for the totally untrue statement about the holocaust being political...

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Hitler was not an observant Catholic. His anti=semitism was taught to him during his recovery from battlefield wounds in 1918. There exists today the anti-semitic essway he wrote while being "educated" and the reasoning ahs no basis in religion whaqtsoever.

"
Anti-semitism

There is no evidence that Alois was an anti-Semite, nor is there any good evidence that Hitler showed any particular inclination in that direction until he became politically active. His claims to the contrary in Mein Kampf are probably false.
In my own view Hitler&#8217;s anti-Semitism stemmed from two main sources:
1
His observations of the use of anti-Semitism as an effective political tool[10] by local politicians such as Karl Lueger and Georg Ritter von Schönerer. Often, Hitler uses the word &#8216;jew&#8217; as a general insult or expression of opposition, commonly identifying &#8216;jews&#8217; with both &#8216;capitalism&#8217; and &#8216;Marxism&#8217; in the same sentence and elsewhere with three &#8216;vices&#8217;: democracy, pacifism and internationalism[11]. As Lueger used to put it, &#8220;I say who is a jew&#8221;[12]. Irving has even attempted to argue that Hitler was unaware of the &#8216;final solution&#8217;, this seems to be pressing imagination much too far. However that may be, it is clear that Hitler ran a very anarchic administration in which he set the parameters which all aspirants for approval and advancement strove to achieve. Functionaries attempted to meet the mind of Hitler, and that mind was constantly expressed in the most destructive and aggressive of terms toward &#8216;jews&#8217;. For my supplement on Hitler&#8217;s involvement in the holocaust see Did Hitler know about the holocaust? A psychological assessment.2
His overwhelming hero worship of the rabidly anti-Semitic Wagner[13], in combination with the encouragement and flattery he took from attention paid to him by the Wagner family and other upper bourgeois families.
I do not believe his own later rationalisations in Mein Kampf, as they do not mesh with other evidence. I think that the effect of the fashionable anti-Semitism in early 20th century Vienna on the insecure young striver, as he struggled to gain acceptance among the upper echelons of society, turned Adolph&#8217;s head and gave him a means of rationalising his boiling resentments and forwarding his ambitions to &#8216;be someone&#8217;.
It is necessary to remember that Hitler swam in a sea of casual anti-Semitism in Vienna and among the &#8216;polite&#8217; society in which he developed. As Germany steadily lost the First World War, so the population searched for rationalisations for their failure. Anti-Semitism was a handy, &#8216;fashionable&#8217; and a widespread cultural affectation in Germany. Without civil strife and cultural anti-Semitism, Nazism was very marginal; only with both did it gain power. Hitler&#8217;s anti-Semitism only coalesced over a long period, the focus being given by the rabid writings of Ford .
Humans tend to do what works. German audiences responded to Hitler&#8217;s hysteria. Thus, the hysteria was reinforced by practical political &#8216;success&#8217;. Hitler could never have risen to power without fertile ground for his messages of rationalised &#8216;hatred&#8217; and romanticised hubris.
The attacks upon &#8216;Jews&#8217; enabled the vast appropriation of assets to pursue war aims and to reward cronies at various levels. These attacks also provided a ready source of slave labour. Much of the assets were laundered through the Swiss banking system[14].
Hitler&#8217;s anti-Semitism became muddled with &#8216;racism&#8217;. This he muddled further with simplistic ideas of survival of the fittest and Hobbesian &#8216;nature red in tooth and claw&#8217;. Where, like Saint-Simon, Marx saw a struggle between classes, Hitler saw a struggle between races.[14a] Both these viewpoints are essentially foolish and simplistic. Evolution works through the individual, not through groups. Survival operates essentially through individuals, not alone by &#8216;struggle&#8217; but by the fortune of better adaptation. Das Kapital and Mein Kampf (My Struggle) were written after the Origin of Species, but in neither case do the authors adequately grasp the message of Darwin. Darwin&#8217;s message is too complex to enter into here in detail. See also Why Aristotelian logic does not work on this site. Dawkins&#8217; Selfish Gene gives a useful popularisation, but even that is not sufficiently cautious. "

Adolph/Adolf Hitler Schicklgruber - his psychology and development

Regards,

Scott
 

mudge991

Member
Nice but how about hearing what Hitler said rather than your opinion. You can think what you like, but you cant change his own words.

"The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (The idea of the devil and the Jew came out of medieval anti-Jewish beliefs based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this &#8220;tradition&#8221; up until the 20th century.)

You cant assume you know better than him, what he was thinking. And we certainly know he was convinced. There isn't a shred of political motivation in that statement.

or here either;

&#8220;Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.&#8221; &#8211;Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
 

mudge991

Member
Tell me how Hitler found that Jews were ripe for genocide from the teachings of Christ.

hmmm maybe he read the bible? Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria, as Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church. As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
How about an occasional citation for your ramblings, Capslock? You know--research, it's called. One of the benefits of research is that you can cite the sources so others can follow your line of reasoning.

It's better than peeing on the occasional scholarly fire hydrant and hoping someone takes you seriously.

Regards,

Scott
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Mudge,

About 75% of babies born in Austria in the late 1890's were baptised Roman Catholic. The boys born were routinely altar boys, it was the rule, not the exception.

Mein Kampf was not an autobiography, it was a political rant.

As to the Church he never looked at it as other than a political ally, disposable in the end:

""If Hitler's extremely pronounced destructiveness was perceived neither by the
German people nor by most foreign statesmen and politicians, the reason was,
on the one hand, the repression of his destructiveness by rationalization of
every kind, which imputed noble intentions and sacred duties to those orders
for annihilation, and, on the other, the dazzling performance he gave as a
perfect liar and brilliant actor. This deceitfulness and disloyalty, both in
the human and in the political arena, was one of his particularly repugnant
character traits. As exemplified in the 'night of the long knives,' he spared
not even his closest friends and most faithful followers when his own
personal advantage was at stake. His dishonest and hypocritical
behavior also applied to the Catholic Church. At the same time as he was
signing a concordat with it, he was already planning a 'final solution' for
the Church at a later time:

A moment will come when I will settle accounts with
them without any long beating about the bush....Every
century that continues to burden itself with this cul-
tural disgrace will no longer be understood in the future.
As the belief in witches had to be eliminated, this relic
too must be eliminated."

Work Cited:

Neumayr, Anton. "Dictators: In the Mirror of Medicine," Bloomington, Ill 1995
Medi-Ed Press. P. 284


Regards,
Scott
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Martin Luther was Christ, was he? Ah, that makes sense now.

Note I said teachings of Christ, not subjective opinion of the church's teachings.

Yet in the same breath people speak of him as Roman Catholic and a fine upstanding altar boy. Fine upstanding altar boys do not venerate Martin Luther
Neither did Hitler.

The earliest evidence of HItler's antisemitism was a letter written b y Hitler to Adolf Gemlich, in 1919 as Hitler was being released from his hospitalization from wounds and gassing.

"
As early as September 1919, Adolf Hitler made it clear where his thoughts on the Jews lay. In a letter dated September 16th 1919 to a Herr Gemlich, Hitler put onto paper his ideas and thoughts, no doubt part formulated by the terms of the Treaty of Versailles.

Dear Herr Gemlich,

The danger posed by Jewry for our people today finds expression in the undeniable aversion of wide sections of our people. The cause of this aversion is not to be found in a clear recognition of the consciously or unconsciously systematic and pernicious effect of the Jews as a totality upon our nation. Rather, it arises mostly from personal contact and from the personal impression, which the individual Jew leaves – almost always an unfavourable one. For this reason, anti-Semitism is too easily characterised as a mere emotional phenomenon. And yet this is incorrect. Anti-Semitism as a political movement may not and cannot be defined by emotional impulses, but by recognition of the facts. The facts are these: First, Jewry is absolutely a race and not a religious association. Even the Jews never designate themselves as Jewish Germans, Jewish Poles or Jewish Americans but always as German, Poles or American Jews. Jews have never yet adopted much more than the language of the foreign nations among whom they live. A German who is forced to make use of the French language in France, Italian in Italy, Chinese in China does not thereby become a Frenchman, Italian or Chinaman. It’s the same with the Jew who lives among us and is forced to make use of the German language. He does not thereby become a German. Neither does the Mosaic faith, so important for the survival of this race, settle the question of whether someone is a Jew or non-Jew. There is scarcely a race whose members belong exclusively to just one definite religion.

Through thousands of years of closest kind of inbreeding, Jews in general have maintained their race and their peculiarities far more distinctly than many of the peoples among whom they have lived. And thus comes the fact there lives amongst us a non-German, alien race which neither wishes nor is able to sacrifice its racial character or to deny its feeling, thinking, and striving. Nevertheless, it possesses all the political rights we do. If the ethos of the Jews is revealed in the purely material realm, it is even clearer in their thinking and striving. Their dance around the golden calf is becoming a merciless struggle for all those possessions we prize most highly on earth.

The value of the individual is no longer decided by his character or by the significance of his achievements for the totality but exclusively by the size of his fortune, by his money. The loftiness of a nation is no longer to be measured by the sum of its moral and spiritual powers, but rather by the wealth of its material possessions.

This thinking and striving after money and power, and the feelings that go along with it, serve the purposes of the Jew who is unscrupulous in the choice of methods and pitiless in their employment. In autocratically ruled states he whines for the favour of “His Majesty” and misuses it like a leech fastened upon nations. In democracies he vies for the favour of the masses, cringes before the “majesty of the people”, and recognises only the majesty of money. He destroys the character of princes with Byzantine flattery, national pride (the strength of a people), with ridicule and shameless breeding to depravity. His method of battle is that public opinion which is never expressed in the press but which is nonetheless managed and falsified by it. His power is the power of money, which multiplies in his hands effortlessly and endlessly through interest, and which forces peoples under the most dangerous of yokes. Its golden glitter, so attractive in the beginning, conceals the ultimately tragic consequences. Everything men strive after as a higher goal, be it religion, socialism, democracy, is to the Jews only means to an end, the way to satisfy his lust for gold and domination.

In his effect and consequences he is like a racial tuberculosis of the nations.

The deduction from all this is the following: an anti-Semitism based purely on emotional grounds, which finds its ultimate expression in the form of a pogrom. An anti-Semitism based on reason, however, must lead to systematic legal combating and elimination of the privileges of the Jews, that which distinguishes the Jews from other aliens who live among us. The ultimate objective must, however, be the irrevocable removal of the Jews in general.

For both these ends a government of national strength, not of national weakness, is necessary. The Republic in Germany owes its birth not to the uniform national will of our people but the sly exploitation of a series of circumstances which found general expression in a deep, universal dissatisfaction. These circumstances however were independent of the form of the state and are still operative today. Indeed, more so now than before. Thus, a great portion of our people recognises that a changed state-form cannot in itself change our situation. For that it will take a rebirth of the moral and spiritual powers of the nation.

And this rebirth cannot be initiated by a state leadership of irresponsible majorities, influenced by certain party dogmas, an irresponsible press, or international phrases and slogans. It requires instead the ruthless installation of nationally minded leadership personalities with an inner sense of responsibility.

But these facts deny to the Republic the essential inner support of the nation’s spiritual forces. And thus today’s state leaders are compelled to seek support among those who draw the exclusive benefits of the new formation of German conditions, and who for this reason were the driving force behind the revolution – the Jews. Even though, as various statements of the leading personalities reveal, today’s leaders fully realised the dangers of Jewry, they (seeking their own advantage) accepted the readily proffered support of the Jews, and also returned the favour. And this pay-off consisted not only in every possible favouring of Jewry, but above all in the hindrance of the struggle of the betrayed people against its defrauders, that is in the repression of the anti-Semitic movement.

Respectfully

Adolf Hitler"
::Hitler and the Jews::

Hitler was more molded by Richard Wagner than by Martin Luther.

Regards,
Scott
 

crystalonyx

Well-Known Member
Martin Luther was Christ, was he? Ah, that makes sense now.

Note I said teachings of Christ, not subjective opinion of the church's teachings.

Martin Luther and many other Christians blamed the Jews for the death of Christ, this certainly was more fodder for HItler and gang to use against the Jews.
 
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