Is Nationalism Bad?

[Rainbow Mage]

What would the upside of Nationalism be?

Nothing. ::Takes refuge in the Sangha::

 

[kai]

How is anti-nationalism bad? We're all one human race.

so the whole worlds population is your brothers and sisters and you love them all all.

do you lock your doors at night so your brothers and sisters cant get in?

do you think you tax dollars should be spent on your country or should you spread it around the world family?

do you advocate the removal of all borders control and accept any and all ?

 

[LuisDantas]

so the whole worlds population is your brothers and sisters and you love them all all.

do you lock your doors at night so your brothers and sisters cant get in?

do you think you tax dollars should be spent on your country or should you spread it around the world family?

do you advocate the removal of all borders control and accept any and all ?

The trick, Kai, is in realizing the effect of one's actions upon the others.

Making too much of the issue of nationality - which is, after all, basically make-believe - encourages others to answer in kind. It can be practical in that it allows for some decisions to be taken, but nationalism must be reigned in lest it becomes destructive. And ultimately, it is simply not very useful.

To go through your questions in order: yes, I could conceivably lock myself away from brothers and sisters whom I expected to be too hostile. Sure, there is no real point in keeping taxes in "my own country" regardless of actual needs and priorities. Yes, borders are to eventually become a historical curiosity and nothing more.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I agree with Luis. What he said.

 

[Valjean]

Nationalism is a political disease.

 

[Onkara]

I think any government would benefit from being "reigned in" i.e. made accountable. All power sources benefit from an efficient public watchdog. As Lord Acton said "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

I am not convinced that abuse of power does not go on in "democratic states" any less than it might in a nationalist state.

Destruction does not need to be physical nor does it arise from nationalism, damage to economy alone can cause emotional and economic "destruction". Some political states at war today are not nationalist.

I would argue that there are certain ideologies and terminologies that are given bad press in favour of those who rise to power through a different name.

 

[Twiglet04]

I think nationalism is good in that it tend to lead to fascism. Unfortunately, people have been put off by the idea of fascism due to a few historical dictators (Hitler, Franco etc). However in principle, as long as the ruler is a good and fair one, fascism is a good thing. The trick is finding the right dictators. The bureaucracy that comes with democracy is supremely wasteful, and there is yet to be a truly democratic country in the world; neither the people of Britain nor America nor any other "democratic state" have democratic rights beyond voting for who represents them in parliament. Other than this, they have no say in how they are governed.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I think nationalism is good in that it tend to lead to fascism. Unfortunately, people have been put off by the idea of fascism due to a few historical dictators (Hitler, Franco etc). However in principle, as long as the ruler is a good and fair one, fascism is a good thing. The trick is finding the right dictators. The bureaucracy that comes with democracy is supremely wasteful, and there is yet to be a truly democratic country in the world; neither the people of Britain nor America nor any other "democratic state" have democratic rights beyond voting for who represents them in parliament. Other than this, they have no say in how they are governed.

No, I would never agree to a Facist government, ever. Not because it's a bad form of government, but because it creates illusionary thinking. The level of nationalism that Facism promotes is steeped in Maya.

 

[LuisDantas]

Then again, Fascism _is_ a lousy form of government. There is that too.

 

[Twiglet04]

Then again, Fascism _is_ a lousy form of government. There is that too.

Why _is_ fascism a "lousy" form of government? I acknowledge that anarchy is, theoretically, the best form of government, just as communism is theoretically the best economic system. But they don't work, because people are inherently selfish.

 

[Onkara]

Fascism lasted in Spain from 1936 to 1975 - 39 years.

Personally I would not promote fascist thinking (nor am I a nationalist), but I wonder to what extent we conclude that something is bad because we are told it is bad.

 

[Onkara]

I acknowledge that anarchy is, theoretically, the best form of government, just as communism is theoretically the best economic system. But they don't work, because people are inherently selfish.

I would say that is it selfishness which leads to change, regardless of the political system because people want something more or different to what they have. In a way I would say this is why there has to be a good economics e.g. capitalism in nationalism, to keep my post related to the OP.

 

[LuisDantas]

Why _is_ fascism a "lousy" form of government? I acknowledge that anarchy is, theoretically, the best form of government, just as communism is theoretically the best economic system. But they don't work, because people are inherently selfish.

When choosing systems, we should consider their long time results and their provision for changes and corrections.

Fascism is by design only as virtuous as its head figure, at most. And power corrupts. Worse still, fascism breeds political inconsequence and apathy in the people that are subject to it. That makes constructive changes that much more difficult (and painful) as time passes.

Fascism, as nationalism itself, is probably better than anarchy, I suppose. But that is very faint praise indeed.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Fascism lasted in Spain from 1936 to 1975 - 39 years.

Personally I would not promote fascist thinking (nor am I a nationalist), but I wonder to what extent we conclude that something is bad because we are told it is bad.

I don't think nationalism was bad because I was told so. I think it because I've seen it's effects both past and present. It divides those who think they are good nationalists against those who don't believe in nationalism. It promotes the mindset that all the good teachers warned against, putting yourself into groups and then raising yourself above everyone else. No one is superior to another. I'll use American nationalism for an example here. We have what is called a patriot. Many patriots would be so offended that I'm not a patriot that they'd tell me to leave America. Patriots also believe America is the greatest nation on earth, above all others. This is not good thinking by any religion's standard.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

From what I have seen there is not a single religion on earth that teaches nationalism is a good thing, but most religions have forgotten or ignored this.

 

[LuisDantas]

From what I have seen there is not a single religion on earth that teaches nationalism is a good thing, but most religions have forgotten or ignored this.

I don't know that I would agree. Shinto, at least, is very nationalistic. As is Judaism, IMO.

In fact, I would guess that most religions were fairly nationalistic at least in their earliest years.

 

[Twiglet04]

When choosing systems, we should consider their long time results and their provision for changes and corrections.

Fascism is by design only as virtuous as its head figure, at most. And power corrupts. Worse still, fascism breeds political inconsequence and apathy in the people that are subject to it. That makes constructive changes that much more difficult (and painful) as time passes.

Fascism, as nationalism itself, is probably better than anarchy, I suppose. But that is very faint praise indeed.

I disagree. When choosing systems, one should aim to find one that doesn't need to change. Also, true anarchy is the moral ideal i.e there is no need for a government as everyone works co-operatively.

The government is best which governs least - Thomas Paine

 

[Valjean]

Fascism is a collusion between state and industry, a sort of corporate racket. The US today caould be characterised as Fascist.
The problem with fascism is that it's intrinsically exploitative. Corporations tend to eat each other up, till each industry and social institution is dominated by a single, for profit, commercial entity with the government backing it up and looking out for its interests.

 

[darkendless]

Nationalism is ok to a point. It cannot be a bad thing to be proud of your nation and your way of life. If you're not proud, why live there?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Nationalism is ok to a point. It cannot be a bad thing to be proud of your nation and your way of life. If you're not proud, why live there?

I knew this was coming at some point. Be a nationalist or get out