Is prayer a form of magic?

[Guitar's Cry]

Oh heck look at the time 5.45pm, I must be making a magic brew, my husband is asking what we are having for our evening meal.

The magic of coffee can be just as alluring (sometimes more so) in the twisting shadows of twilight.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Ya'll can just chill on the prayer thing, 'cause prayer don't do nuttin'. ^_^

It's true, and we have the evidence provided by a study funded by the Templeton Foundation no less. The paper was published in May 2005 and showed clearly in a double-blind clinical study that prayer was at best non effective (in the case of the two groups that didn't know that they were being prayed for) and at worst harmful (in the case of the group that knew they were being prayed for).

Here is a quote from the study:
Results: In the two groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% confidence interval 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% confidence interval 1.02-1.28). Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups.
Conclusions: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

Notice: I would provide the direct links, but I'm not allowed to yet. Anyone interested in reading the paper for themselves can PM me and I'll link you right up.

In short. Chill. Prayer doesn't work. At all. But do us a favour and don't tell people you are praying for them...

 

[blackout]

Rather depends on what "work" encompasses....

*watches comment go flying over head.....*

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Ya'll can just chill on the prayer thing, 'cause prayer don't do nuttin'. ^_^

It's true, and we have the evidence provided by a study funded by the Templeton Foundation no less.

<Looks around>

Was anyone claiming what the Templeton study was testing?

If prayer doesn't do anything, why do I find it relaxing and inspiring?

 

[Justin Thyme]

I have found prayer to be very effective in my life. And, yes, I think it could be a very similar activity to the casting of spells. It just depends on who the prayer is to. If nothing else prayer for others has me thinking about those people and the problems they are facing and has given me inspiration to find solutions for them. I know the same has happened when others have prayed for me.

 

[Misty]

I have found prayer to be very effective in my life. And, yes, I think it could be a very similar activity to the casting of spells. It just depends on who the prayer is to. If nothing else prayer for others has me thinking about those people and the problems they are facing and has given me inspiration to find solutions for them. I know the same has happened when others have prayed for me.

If it does the business for you that is fine.

 

[Erebus]

Petitioning prayer is a form of magic, yes. Spell ("word") casting ("throwing") is the attempt to influence powers through ones words. In the hands of someone who understands how language works it can be powerful. In the hands of someone who does not, they are likely to end up hurting and disappointing themselves and others.

Spot on.

Praying for change is a world apart from praying for purposes of comfort or meditation.

 

[jarofthoughts]

<Looks around>

Was anyone claiming what the Templeton study was testing?

If prayer doesn't do anything, why do I find it relaxing and inspiring?

This tread was asking if praying was equal to magic. That implies that it should have some sort of supernatural effect, such as enhance healing, which is exactly what the study was testing.

If you'd rather discuss the benefits of meditation, then that is another issue all together, but it sure is not magic and I fail to see why anyone would think it would be.

So, in the context of prayer being magic, you can all relax. Prayer has no such effects whatsoever.

 

[Justin Thyme]

This tread was asking if praying was equal to magic. That implies that it should have some sort of supernatural effect, such as enhance healing, which is exactly what the study was testing.

If you'd rather discuss the benefits of meditation, then that is another issue all together, but it sure is not magic and I fail to see why anyone would think it would be.

So, in the context of prayer being magic, you can all relax. Prayer has no such effects whatsoever.

In that context, do you consider magic magic?

 

[jarofthoughts]

In that context, do you consider magic magic?

Personally I don't consider magic at all. I don't allow anything that cannot empirically or evidentially be shown to be so into my view of reality. In short, there is nothing supernatural at all.

But apparently some people do, and it seemed as if someone was worried about the potential magical effects of prayer. These people can now relax. ^_^

 

[doppelganger]

This tread was asking if praying was equal to magic. That implies that it should have some sort of supernatural effect, such as enhance healing, which is exactly what the study was testing.

As UltraViolet pointed out, magic doesn't equate to "supernatural effect," though it may be interpreted through certain perspectives as a supernatural effect. Grammatically and epistemologically, magic is merely the lack of complete information.

Take a miracle, for instance. To what sort of experience are people referring when they say that a "miracle" has occurred?

 

[jarofthoughts]

As UltraViolet pointed out, magic doesn't equate to "supernatural effect," though it may be interpreted through certain perspectives as a supernatural effect. Grammatically and epistemologically, magic is merely the lack of complete information.

The Online Oxford Dictionary defines "Magic" in this manner:
the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces: suddenly, as if by magic, the doors start to open

Now, seeing as some people were worried that prayer was magic, I don't think they merely referred to the apparent lack of information regarding what they expected prayer to do.

In either case they can stop worrying. Prayer don't do squat. Except maybe calm you down a bit, but so can nice a cup of tea without us attributing anything mystical to it.

Take a miracle, for instance. To what sort of experience are people referring when they say that a "miracle" has occurred?

The word miracle can mean different things. Again, here is the definition by the OOD:
- an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency:
the miracle of rising from the grave.
-a remarkable event or development that brings very welcome consequences:
it was a miracle that more people hadn't been killed.
industries at the heart of the economic miracle
-an exceptional product or achievement, or an outstanding example of something:
a machine which was a miracle of design.

The first example is bogus. No such thing has ever evidentially been shown to have taken place. People might think this is what happens, but then again people are pretty good at fooling themselves. It seems to be in our nature and I'll explain some of the mechanisms that are the source of this if you are interested.

The second example happens all the time due to pure chance. Nothing mystical there. Sometimes you luck out. Sometimes you don't. And sometimes people call things a miracle even when something completely foreseeable happens, mainly because they weren't able to foresee it for one reason or another.

Oh, and I expect the third one does not require any further elaboration.

 

[doppelganger]

The Online Oxford Dictionary defines "Magic" in this manner:
the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces: suddenly, as if by magic, the doors start to open

To what experience is this a reference? What is actually going on in a person's thoughts when they classify something as "magic"?

The word miracle can mean different things. Again, here is the definition by the OOD:
- an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency:
the miracle of rising from the grave.
-a remarkable event or development that brings very welcome consequences:
it was a miracle that more people hadn't been killed.
industries at the heart of the economic miracle
-an exceptional product or achievement, or an outstanding example of something:
a machine which was a miracle of design.

I didn't ask what the word "miracle" meant. I asked: "To what sort of experience are people referring when they say that a "miracle" has occurred?" (emphasis added)

 

[Man of Faith]

Can the OP give their definition of magic? That way I can better answer the question of if prayer is like magic.

 

[blackout]

Can the OP give their definition of magic? That way I can better answer the question of if prayer is like magic.

Some definition of prayer might help as well.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

This tread was asking if praying was equal to magic. That implies that it should have some sort of supernatural effect, such as enhance healing, which is exactly what the study was testing.

If you'd rather discuss the benefits of meditation, then that is another issue all together, but it sure is not magic and I fail to see why anyone would think it would be.

So, in the context of prayer being magic, you can all relax. Prayer has no such effects whatsoever.

Magic is art, and prayer is introspection. The connection is undeniable, I say!

From Aleister Crowley's Magick: In Theory and Practice:

Every man must do magic each time he acts or thinks...a thought is an internal act whose influence ultimately affects action, though it may not do so at the time.

I see magic as that connection between the internal individual and his universe: the co-creation between the undefined Everything and the slicing of the razor mind. Through the relationship of the individual, the universe can model itself and gaze in wonder.

It's art.

Prayer is communication in a not so dissimilar way.

 

[Man of Faith]

Some definition of prayer might help as well.

That might help some, but I already know that. I do that on a daily basis.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

That might help some, but I already know that. I do that on a daily basis.

How do you pray?

 

[doppelganger]

That might help some, but I already know that. I do that on a daily basis.

There are quite a few different forms of "prayer" though.

Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits. When you go into any region and walk about in the countryside, when people take you in, eat what they serve you and heal the sick among them.
After all, what goes into your mouth will not defile you; rather, it's what comes out of your mouth that will defile you."

-Gospel of Thomas

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think magic is hocus pocus, I think prayer is a phenomenon.

Fun fact: "hocus pocus", which is now has almost entirely magical connotations, is a corruption of the Latin phrase "hoc est corpus (meum)", meaning "this is my body", part of the prayer over the Eucharist in Catholic Mass.

I think this historical tidbit is interestingly relevant to the topic of the thread.