Is prayer a form of magic?

[Duck]

I think prayer is a form of magic, what do you think?

If one were to consider that magic is an attempt to alter one's surroundings or circumstances by will alone, then I think that an argument could be made for prayer to be a form of magic. One is attempting, via prayer to impose one's will on the universe via the engine of some being, essentially cajoling or compelling that being to act in accordance with your desires.

 

[gnostic]

Yes...but He is a jealous God and my only point was He doesn't call prayer "magic"...when He was saying don't do the magic...those He was talking too were calling on the 'dark forces'...demons, etc....

But god is the "dark forces"....well, the Abrahamic deity is.

Consider these:

• God sent Satan to test Job's faith,
• he sent the "evil spirit" to torment Saul with madness and paranoia,
• he sent Angel of Death to slaughter every Egyptian first born (it doesn't matter if the first-born is a grown man or innocent infant),
• and lastly, those who don't follow God through Jesus, will get the 1st class ticket to hell.

Seriously, you can't get much darker forces than that.

What was the saying in Isaiah?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

He is responsible for creating the darkness and evil as much as creating the light and goodness. So God created all these things.

 

[jarofthoughts]

To what experience is this a reference? What is actually going on in a person's thoughts when they classify something as "magic"?

Superstition and ignorance mostly.

I didn't ask what the word "miracle" meant. I asked: "To what sort of experience are people referring when they say that a "miracle" has occurred?" (emphasis added)

I answered that. The definition is quite clear. What the word means is what it refers to.

 

[Twig pentagram]

You call on your god to do your magic for you.

Exactly, or either they do their magic through their god.

 

[Twig pentagram]

Can the OP give their definition of magic? That way I can better answer the question of if prayer is like magic.

Magic: the art of persons who claim to be able to do things by the help of supernatural powers or by their own knowledge of nature's secrets.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Magic: the art of persons who claim to be able to do things by the help of supernatural powers or by their own knowledge of nature's secrets.

By that definition anything, even science... Heck, especially science, is magic.

 

[Green Kepi]

But god is the "dark forces"....well, the Abrahamic deity is.

Consider these:

• God sent Satan to test Job's faith,
• he sent the "evil spirit" to torment Saul with madness and paranoia,
• he sent Angel of Death to slaughter every Egyptian first born (it doesn't matter if the first-born is a grown man or innocent infant),
• and lastly, those who don't follow God through Jesus, will get the 1st class ticket to hell.

Seriously, you can't get much darker forces than that.

What was the saying in Isaiah?

He is responsible for creating the darkness and evil as much as creating the light and goodness. So God created all these things.

He may not be as dark and sinister as you think...I, as a Christian am one of the few that does not believe in the "man-invented" hell...I believe God will just destroy the soul. God is an "all consuming fire"...He is the symbolic 'Lake of Fire'...hopefully you will admit that we are not the center of the universe, not the reference point against which goodness can be judged. But we act and think as though God's goodness depends on how well we like what's going on.

We are not in a position to judge the goodness of God's actions. We see too small a part of the overall picture - a picture that covers all of time and all of mankind....

 

[Misty]

He may not be as dark and sinister as you think...I, as a Christian am one of the few that does not believe in the "man-invented" hell...I believe God will just destroy the soul. God is an "all consuming fire"...He is the symbolic 'Lake of Fire'...hopefully you will admit that we are not the center of the universe, not the reference point against which goodness can be judged. But we act and think as though God's goodness depends on how well we like what's going on.

We are not in a position to judge the goodness of God's actions. We see too small a part of the overall picture - a picture that covers all of time and all of mankind....[/quote]

I suppose some Christians have to use that as an excuse to justify the evil tyrant's actions!

 

[Twig pentagram]

By that definition anything, even science... Heck, especially science, is magic.

I got that definition from the merriam webster dictionary.

 

[Erebus]

By that definition anything, even science... Heck, especially science, is magic.

A lot of magicians would agree with that notion

I myself see a hell of a lot of overlap between magic and psychology. The placebo/nocebo effect in particular is a fantastic example of how thought can affect the physical.

 

[Green Kepi]

Misty: "I suppose some Christians have to use that as an excuse to justify the evil tyrant's actions!"[/quote]

Your argument is regurgitation…of the most popular argument against the existence of God is based on the timeless question: "If there is truly a good God, then why is there evil in the world?"

First of all stop envisioning (the Christian's belief of God) God literally as some Super Person in the sky with a mind like our own. First we must consider the meaning of evil.

There are two kinds of evil: moral and physical. Moral evil is willful sin, while physical evil is natural harm. Examples of moral evil are murder, adultery, fornication, theft, sorcery, abortion...

Examples of physical evil are famine, illness, natural disasters and death. God did not create evil since it is not a thing to be created. Evil is an imperfection, lack or void in God's creation…he made man with a free mind…man chose to commit evil….

 

[jarofthoughts]

Your argument is regurgitation…of the most popular argument against the existence of God is based on the timeless question: "If there is truly a good God, then why is there evil in the world?"

Look mate, we're just basing our idea of your god on what you guys have been telling us for centuries.

1. Your god is supposedly infinitely good.
2. Your god is supposedly almighty.
3. Your god is supposedly all-knowing.

Let's forget for a moment that 1. and 2. are logically incompatible and accept the premises as they stand.

That means that he knows about all the evil that happens, he can remove it if he wants to and being infinitely good he should want to remove all evil.
Evil after all is the opposite of good.

So unless you want to forfeit one of the above characteristics the question stands.

Where is your good when there is evil in the world?

 

[Justin Thyme]

Look mate, we're just basing our idea of your god on what you guys have been telling us for centuries.

1. Your god is supposedly infinitely good.
2. Your god is supposedly almighty.
3. Your god is supposedly all-knowing.

Let's forget for a moment that 1. and 2. are logically incompatible and accept the premises as they stand.

That means that he knows about all the evil that happens, he can remove it if he wants to and being infinitely good he should want to remove all evil.
Evil after all is the opposite of good.

So unless you want to forfeit one of the above characteristics the question stands.

Where is your good when there is evil in the world?

Add in:

4. God has endowed His Creation with Free Will

and you have your answer.

 

[Twig pentagram]

Who cares if god created evil or not. This is not the thread for that.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Add in:

4. God has endowed His Creation with Free Will

and you have your answer.

Ah, so you are assuming that viruses, bacteria, natural disasters and so on and so forth are human creations? Or maybe bacteria have free will too and they just CHOOSE to do evil?

 

[Justin Thyme]

Ah, so you are assuming that viruses, bacteria, natural disasters and so on and so forth are human creations? Or maybe bacteria have free will too and they just CHOOSE to do evil?

You are assuming that viruses, bacteria and natural disasters are evil. Are they? Or are they just a necessary part of the life cycle? Is a lion evil for killing a gazelle or is it just hungry? Is death evil? I don't think so.

 

[jarofthoughts]

You are assuming that viruses, bacteria and natural disasters are evil. Are they? Or are they just a necessary part of the life cycle? Is a lion evil for killing a gazelle or is it just hungry? Is death evil? I don't think so.

I didn't. Green Kepi did.
So, you are saying that Green Kepi is wrong then? I wonder what else he is wrong about?

But hey, we can work the free will angle some more. You presume that your god has given us free will, right. And free will must by its very definition mean that you are free to make choices. Except...if you choose something else than what god wants you to he'll send you to hell.

Some choice I must say...

 

[Misty]

Misty: "I suppose some Christians have to use that as an excuse to justify the evil tyrant's actions!"

Your argument is regurgitation…of the most popular argument against the existence of God is based on the timeless question: "If there is truly a good God, then why is there evil in the world?"

First of all stop envisioning (the Christian's belief of God) God literally as some Super Person in the sky with a mind like our own. First we must consider the meaning of evil.

There are two kinds of evil: moral and physical. Moral evil is willful sin, while physical evil is natural harm. Examples of moral evil are murder, adultery, fornication, theft, sorcery, abortion...

Examples of physical evil are famine, illness, natural disasters and death. God did not create evil since it is not a thing to be created. Evil is an imperfection, lack or void in God's creation…he made man with a free mind…man chose to commit evil….[/quote]

That is just part of the natural evolutionary cycle, however unpleasant, NOT the result of evil!

 

[Justin Thyme]

I didn't. Green Kepi did.
So, you are saying that Green Kepi is wrong then? I wonder what else he is wrong about?

Far be it from me to state anyone is wrong about religion. Let's just say we are of different opinions.

But hey, we can work the free will angle some more. You presume that your god has given us free will, right. And free will must by its very definition mean that you are free to make choices. Except...if you choose something else than what god wants you to he'll send you to hell.

Some choice I must say...

What happens in this world if you choose to rob a bank and get caught at it?

I don't really believe in Hell as a physical place. I believe in a Kingdom of God as a state of mind and spirit that we enter when we align ourselves with God and His Will. I believe Hell is everything outside of that Kingdom of God. We are free to choose to enter the Kingdom of God and we are free to choose to remain outside of the Kingdom of God.

To get this back on topic, I believe prayer is an important part of entering the Kingdom of God and that the effect it has on the soul is immediate and magical.

 

[Green Kepi]

Look mate, we're just basing our idea of your god on what you guys have been telling us for centuries.

1. Your god is supposedly infinitely good.
2. Your god is supposedly almighty.
3. Your god is supposedly all-knowing.

Let's forget for a moment that 1. and 2. are logically incompatible and accept the premises as they stand.

That means that he knows about all the evil that happens, he can remove it if he wants to and being infinitely good he should want to remove all evil.
Evil after all is the opposite of good.

So unless you want to forfeit one of the above characteristics the question stands.

Where is your good when there is evil in the world?

I believe He will remove it...someday...at a time of His own choosing. I realize, I can't prove Him enough for you...but neither can you disapprove Him enough for me. Now...I also realize for many who respond to this Forum...that make me gullible...but it doesn't you...go figure....(?)