Is premarital sex a good, a bad, or a nuetral event in terms of ethics and of effect?

[darkendless]

I disagree, Sex is healthy, energizing, fun, and very satisfying if properly respected. It is also the means wherein two people usher into mortality other of God's children and that is a sacred responsibility not to be taken lightly, so sacred that some very strict bounds have been established with regard to it. It is not to be trifled with nor is stepping outside those bounds to be justified in any way.

Why must your God legislate everything that is human nature?

Human nature is the boundary, christianity only made it unreasonable.

If two people stay within those bounds the joy is great and the satisfaction extends throughout mortal existence and the joyful effects thereof continue to grow throughout eternity. Sadly though, the sorrow of disobedience does the same. The rules regarding sex are really quite simple and for good reason, going afoul is too easy and the ramifications of setting aside something so simple and sacred to satisfy ones own animal instincts are eternally far reaching and can shake the very eternal foundations of those children that result from such unauthorized sexual unions. This is why immorality as defined by God is such a serious offence. I believe it is also why some (and not a few) want to declare themselves as Atheists’; it makes it easier to tune out guilt as they mindlessly seek instant gratification in all its forms regardless of the consequences.

Your God treats you like children. Simple rules for simple people?

We have animal instincts for a reason, we are animals. Trying to go against those instincts only causes us trouble.

 

[dust1n]

I believe it is also why some (and not a few) want to declare themselves as Atheists’; it makes it easier to tune out guilt as they mindlessly seek instant gratification in all its forms regardless of the consequences.

No, I just don't have any guilt about it. I'm not guilty of immoral act (in my eyes) so why would guilt be associated with it?

 

[Evandr]

Why must your God legislate everything that is human nature?

Human nature is the boundary, christianity only made it unreasonable.

Have you heard nothing I said? Sexual relationships have the potential for great joy but also for great sorrow that can go far beyond the realms of the two people rolling under the covers. Such an attitude as yours magnifies and amplifies the power of disobedience to effectively destroy the lives of other innocent people, and I don't mean just the children, I mean all the family, the community, the nation, and the world. Just look around. It is true that sorrow can come in wedlock as well as out but that is because the participants are ignoring the rules, it's a package deal, you cannot dissect the commandments and keep only those you want and toss the rest.

Your God treats you like children. Simple rules for simple people?

We have animal instincts for a reason, we are animals. Trying to go against those instincts only causes us trouble.

God treats us like children because compared to the glory, knowledge, and grandeur of God we are ignorant little children needing a much defined set of rules to guide us into adulthood in the realms of eternity. Otherwise we would fare no better than a child left to its own devices, afloat with a sinking boat in a sea of sharks. Without God all any of us can do is cry in denial of our own ignorance.

 

[Evandr]

No, I just don't have any guilt about it. I'm not guilty of immoral act (in my eyes) so why would guilt be associated with it?

It is this lack of guilt within you that will prevent you from being guiltless as you face those around you. The recognition that one needs God is the first step to becoming like Him.

 

[darkendless]

Have you heard nothing I said? Sexual relationships have the potential for great joy but also for great sorrow that can go far beyond the realms of the two people rolling under the covers. Such an attitude as yours magnifies and amplifies the power of disobedience to effectively destroy the lives of other innocent people, and I don't mean just the children, I mean all the family, the community, the nation, and the world. Just look around. It is true that sorrow can come in wedlock as well as out but that is because the participants are ignoring the rules, it's a package deal, you cannot dissect the commandments and keep only those you want and toss the rest.

I read what you said but maybe if you took of your religion goggles you might see sex for what it is.

The funny thing is, i plan to have a family and children, so that shoots your offensive and unfounded statement of of the water.

Your last sentence is pure hypocrisy. Christians pick and choose biblical text to suit themselves. So come down off your high horse.

God treats us like children because compared to the glory, knowledge, and grandeur of God we are ignorant little children needing a much defined set of rules to guide us into adulthood in the realms of eternity. Otherwise we would fare no better than a child left to its own devices, afloat with a sinking boat in a sea of sharks. Without God all any of us can do is cry in denial of our own ignorance.

Don't speak for a God you don't understand.

People like me do fine. We don't need a God to tell us what to do. Thats the beauty of the brain, we can make our own choices. We don't need to be told how to do everything, it cheapens life to live like a statistic out of a book.

 

[Cosmos]

The reality, Dust, as I've experienced drug houses, gangs, ex-cons, rich teens, and every other extremity of modern culture, and promiscuous sex is merely another side effect of low-self esteem, trauma, and immaturity of society at large. I didn't learn life lessons because I chose to have unconscionable intercourse, but due to my realization of my actions, which any soul can attain without engaging in an activity. Do you have to shoot crank to know it's wrong for you personally? Likewise, sex acting upon the same neuro-receptors as dope is a trigger that can cause undue stress, consequences, and side effects in life. I am not arguing that two people cannot be in-tune with another unless they perform a social ceremony that magically makes them bonded, but the ritual itself is about the psychological commitment before yourselves, witnesses (i.e. friends and family members), society, and God.

The reason why we do not have the sanctity of marriage anymore, my dear friend Dustin, is because our perceptions of a relationship are so narrowly confined to physical relationships that we are not truly engaging or interacting with each other on deep spiritual levels, though we're having full intercourse with everyone else. Discovering our sexuality goes beyond our physical identity, which is a childish and immature sense of self or identity many of us (I will be the first to admit I am working on my own dynamics) are attached. For example, the child is obsessed with genitals because it is the first thing it notices about itself in respect to not only his/her body but social roles or identity, too. When we do not develop our spiritual faculties we become engrossed in behaviors and activities not fully expressing our sexuality on a psychological ans spiritual level.

As an example, take the idea that each human being is a soul beyond corporeal association or dualistic relation, asexual in essence. Why then our realities as men and women serving as fathers and mothers, husbands and wives? Why a "man's job" and a "woman's touch"? Our orientation serves a higher purpose of harmonizing the whole that is the Supreme and Ultimate Reality manifesting itself as spirit in this world.

We all grow and learn. What I now know to be unfruitful I once thought beneficial. The illusion of self is when we become static in our knowledge and capability to spiritualize our lives. Normally, we can recognize the illusory self when we realize that it is our self-desires or clinging that gets in the way of our true destiny, and being a young adult (teenager) means facing these new challenges and frontiers with a sense of dignity, honor, and esteem.

 

[Walkntune]

We all grow and learn. What I now know to be unfruitful I once thought beneficial. The illusion of self is when we become static in our knowledge and capability to spiritualize our lives. Normally, we can recognize the illusory self when we realize that it is our self-desires or clinging that gets in the way of our true destiny, and being a young adult (teenager) means facing these new challenges and frontiers with a sense of dignity, honor, and esteem.

That underlined statement is really good.To hold on to desires causes the mind to try and seek out in the world that which will full fill those desires until we become a big hole and void inside.To let go of the desires ,the mind quiets and you become happy and full of joy and there fore attract all good things to guide you to your destiny and all true desires are full filled. The world only reflects back that which is in our consciousness.

 

[*Anne*]

That sounds a bit Buddhist.

 

[Walkntune]

That sounds a bit Buddhist.

Its really the secret to life and all religions!
That which we hold on to will sink us and what we let go of will bring joy and peace.
Its like people buying a material thing that they wanted because they think it will make them happy.It was letting go and satisfying the want that made them happy and they get used to the material thing and start wanting another and continue in addiction.
All of the wanting will keep drawing wanting and create a void inside.
You can choose to just let go of wanting and just be happy and at peace and from this state you continue to draw states of peace and joy which is what everyone is really trying to do in the first place.Whatever you hold in consciousness will be mirrored back from the world.
Happiness is not found in the world but it is found inside.

 

[McBell]

I was in here for the discussion, not the drama. Please take the Jerry Springer mentality somewhere else.

Who do you think you're fooling?
YOU were the one who started the drama in this thread.

You also stated that you were leaving the thread.
I notice that you stopped preaching in this thread.

 

[dust1n]

It is this lack of guilt within you that will prevent you from being guiltless as you face those around you. The recognition that one needs God is the first step to becoming like Him.

I don't understand? I feel guilty all the time when I do something I consider of bad nature, but I fail to see how my lack of guilt of having sex with someone who not only consented but wanted it means I am guiltless.

 

[*Anne*]

Its really the secret to life and all religions!
That which we hold on to will sink us and what we let go of will bring joy and peace.

:yes:

Its like people buying a material thing that they wanted because they think it will make them happy.It was letting go and satisfying the want that made them happy and they get used to the material thing and start wanting another and continue in addiction.

I see you've met my second daughter.

 

[MoonWater]

It seems there have been several studies showing that couples who not only have premarital sex, but who also cohabitate before marriage, are more likely to divorce once they get married than couples who do not cohabitate before marriage. That might be of concern.

I've heard of such studies as well however I've also heard of a counter-argument/ explanation as to why that may be the case. Those who wait for marriage before living together and/or having premarital sex for the most part do it for religious reasons(of course there are exceptions but I believe this is a primary factor). And religions that tell you to wait until marriage also tend to be against the idea of divorce. As such the primary factor behind why there is a lower divorce rate among people who wait until marriage might not necessarily be because their marriages are more successful or happier than those who cohabitate/have sex beforehand, but rather it's more likely they will stay together simply because their beliefs do not permit them to get a divorce. Meanwhile those who do cohabitate/have sex before marriage would likely also be more open to the idea of divorce.

in other words the fact that divorce rates are higher among that particular group doesn't necessarily mean that those higher divorce rates are caused by having sex before marriage or living together before marriage. It's just as likely, and I believe far more likely, that the cause has to do with religious/cultural beliefs that influence one's decisions in regards to marriage and sex also having an affect on whether or not one would get a divorce.

not sure if I'm being coherent. let me know if my thoughts need any clarification.

 

[Walkntune]

Who do you think you're fooling?
YOU were the one who started the drama in this thread.

You also stated that you were leaving the thread.
I notice that you stopped preaching in this thread.

Wow! You are a real ankle biter!
Msizer and I were in a conversation,we shared our view points and I believe we subtly agreed to disagree.
He made the statement

I guess you're right, this doesn't seem to be progressing.

He hasn't been back and I have no interest in trying to force an opinion when I know we won't agree.
I said I am outa here really responding to the fact that I know and think he knows we weren't going anywhere.It was more out of that particular conversation then the thread in general.
Now why don't you grab yourself some popcorn and a soda and go stir up drama somewhere else like usual since your not really contributing anything constructive here(unless of course you actually do want to actually engage in the topic of the OP.)

 

[dust1n]

The reality, Dust, as I've experienced drug houses, gangs, ex-cons, rich teens, and every other extremity of modern culture, and promiscuous sex is merely another side effect of low-self esteem, trauma, and immaturity of society at large.

And what is it about marriage that changes it to something else?

I didn't learn life lessons because I chose to have unconscionable intercourse, but due to my realization of my actions, which any soul can attain without engaging in an activity. Do you have to shoot crank to know it's wrong for you personally?

Well, I suppose for some people yes, since people do amphetamines all the time - that is how they find out it's a bad thing. But even then, that is a lot different than premarital sex - which doesn't necessarily have negative effects for people. Ask them.

Likewise, sex acting upon the same neuro-receptors as dope is a trigger that can cause undue stress, consequences, and side effects in life. I am not arguing that two people cannot be in-tune with another unless they perform a social ceremony that magically makes them bonded, but the ritual itself is about the psychological commitment before yourselves, witnesses (i.e. friends and family members), society, and God.

I'm just failing to see why the open commitment is necessary?

The reason why we do not have the sanctity of marriage anymore, my dear friend Dustin, is because our perceptions of a relationship are so narrowly confined to physical relationships that we are not truly engaging or interacting with each other on deep spiritual levels, though we're having full intercourse with everyone else.

That's is certainly true for some people and always has been, but it isn't true for all people, many who are not necessarily married.

Discovering our sexuality goes beyond our physical identity, which is a childish and immature sense of self or identity many of us (I will be the first to admit I am working on my own dynamics) are attached. For example, the child is obsessed with genitals because it is the first thing it notices about itself in respect to not only his/her body but social roles or identity, too. When we do not develop our spiritual faculties we become engrossed in behaviors and activities not fully expressing our sexuality on a psychological ans spiritual level.

Elaborate.

As an example, take the idea that each human being is a soul beyond corporeal association or dualistic relation, asexual in essence. Why then our realities as men and women serving as fathers and mothers, husbands and wives? Why a "man's job" and a "woman's touch"? Our orientation serves a higher purpose of harmonizing the whole that is the Supreme and Ultimate Reality manifesting itself as spirit in this world.

And why are those gender roles necessary to harmonize the world?

We all grow and learn. What I now know to be unfruitful I once thought beneficial. The illusion of self is when we become static in our knowledge and capability to spiritualize our lives. Normally, we can recognize the illusory self when we realize that it is our self-desires or clinging that gets in the way of our true destiny, and being a young adult (teenager) means facing these new challenges and frontiers with a sense of dignity, honor, and esteem.

I am just confused how anyone is suppose to learn that their self-desires or clinging gets in the way of their 'true destiny' (whatever that entails) without first experience self-desire and clinging?

 

[Badran]

Explain..

The thing is, there is really no harm done to 2 people if they have sex, and both are willing of course, even if they are not married. Even if there is harm done to them, it is there responsibility and they are free to do what they want as long as they aren't hurting anybody.

The problem i think, which would explain why sex without marriage is a big deal in religions, is that they do hurt somebody. If they are not committed to each other, that means that there is a very good chance that they won't be with each other for the rest of their lives, which would mean that if a child is born through that relation ship, he would be bound not to have a family just due to his parents lack of self control. If that's the case, lots of children are going to be raised with one parent(Usually the mom) because sex is great and if their are absolutely no restrictions of any kind, it's sure to happen a lot.

 

[Sunstone]

Sometime ago, an old, old grandmother in my home town was talking about people who could not recover from their getting hurt in love. She said, "Life is too strong for them." I've always wondered whether she was onto something.

 

[McBell]

(unless of course you actually do want to actually engage in the topic of the OP.)

Seems to me that pre-marital sex is mostly a neutral thing.
However, it depends entirely upon ones attitude towards marriage.

I know some people who think that if there is a pregnancy that results, that marriage is required.
Getting married simply because she got pregnant is just asking for a bad marriage.

Of course, you got so many people with the attitude "we get married so we can have sex and if it don't work out we can always get a divorce" and people wonder why the divorce rate is so high.

So it is my thought that if you have the attitude that pregnancy requires marriage, don't have sex with anyone you do not want to marry.

If you think that you have to be married to have sex, well, seems to me that that is a rather expensive route to go if they are terrible in the sack.

Now if you want to go on about the bad parts of pre-marital sex, well outside of religious dogma, I really do not see any. Now I am not saying that its OK to jump in the sack with everything that has three nee's, but for a committed monogamous couple, there is nothing other than personal bias's and prejudice's that makes premarital sex a "bad" thing.

As for "open" relationships, I know several couples who have them and they get along better than most monogamous couples I know and again, outside of religious dogma, I really do not see anything wrong or bad about it.
Sure beats both of them running around behind each others back having affairs.

 

[Walkntune]

Seems to me that pre-marital sex is mostly a neutral thing.
However, it depends entirely upon ones attitude towards marriage.

I know some people who think that if there is a pregnancy that results, that marriage is required.
Getting married simply because she got pregnant is just asking for a bad marriage.

Of course, you got so many people with the attitude "we get married so we can have sex and if it don't work out we can always get a divorce" and people wonder why the divorce rate is so high.

So it is my thought that if you have the attitude that pregnancy requires marriage, don't have sex with anyone you do not want to marry.

If you think that you have to be married to have sex, well, seems to me that that is a rather expensive route to go if they are terrible in the sack.

Now if you want to go on about the bad parts of pre-marital sex, well outside of religious dogma, I really do not see any. Now I am not saying that its OK to jump in the sack with everything that has three nee's, but for a committed monogamous couple, there is nothing other than personal bias's and prejudice's that makes premarital sex a "bad" thing.

In some ways I agree with your post.You have described a few reasons I believe why families don't stand as strong as they used to.
I agree that trying to keep a family together out of laws for religious reasons causes a lot off resistance that can be an almost impossible task to overcome.
This is why for those who are religious, they should lay down their own selfish lusts and sinful nature and allow God to bring the right one.When you are living a life to better yourself and have a specific goal and destiny, all you have to do is look beside you and the right one will be there running along with you.
If you choose to act on the desires of the flesh instead then you run into nothing but resistance from the path of your true destiny.
Reminds me again of this excellent comment from Cosmos.

The illusion of self is when we become static in our knowledge and capability to spiritualize our lives. Normally, we can recognize the illusory self when we realize that it is our self-desires or clinging that gets in the way of our true destiny, and being a young adult (teenager) means facing these new challenges and frontiers with a sense of dignity, honor, and esteem.

As for "open" relationships, I know several couples who have them and they get along better than most monogamous couples I know and again, outside of religious dogma, I really do not see anything wrong or bad about it.
Sure beats both of them running around behind each others back having affairs.

People who think like this are only thinking about themselves and not Society as a whole. They think they are strong enough to behave like this,want to justify there behaviour as moral and make it an acceptable behaviour in society so they feel justified.
A few in society are strong enough to detach themselves emotionally for such actions and the rest of Society is getting the battered woman syndrome and and going along and accepting such behaviors out of fear not being loved or having broken families.
It may not be damaging to the couples themselves but it becomes a disease to society when we take the society into an account as a whole.
In my view morality is not based on one particular view but is based on looking at society as a whole and what is best in that perspective.
Unless there is some convincing arguments that open relationships is best for all families and society as a whole? I personally believe it makes families weaker, not stronger.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Pre-marital sex is great; I'd rather it be non-marital though; the thought of waking up to the same woman every morning makes me cry a little...