outhouse
Atheistically
6th century, worthless historically speaking, for anything to do with Jesus.
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Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah
- Thread starter paarsurrey
- Start date
6th century, worthless historically speaking, for anything to do with Jesus.
outhouse
Atheistically
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
It's because there aren't any to cite.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah
I give below a Chapter from Quran:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 98: Al-Bayyinah
[98:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[98:2] Those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and the idolaters would not desist from disbelief until there came to them the clear evidence —
[98:3] A Messenger from Allah, reciting unto them the pure Scriptures.
[98:4] Therein are lasting commandments.
[98:5] And those to whom the Book was given did not become divided until after clear evidence had come to them.
[98:6] And they were not commanded but to serve Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience,and being upright, and to observe Prayer, and pay the Zakat. And that is the religion of the people of the right path.
[98:7] Verily, those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and the idolaters will be in the Fire of Hell, abiding therein. They are the worst of creatures.
[98:8] Verily, those who believe and do good works — they are the best of creatures.
[98:9] Their reward is with their Lord — Gardens of Eternity, through which streams flow; they will abide therein for ever. Allah is well pleased with them, and they are well pleased with Him. That is for him who fears his Lord.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Please prove that this chapter has been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Jewish Bible/Torah or any other religious scripture in the world.
Quran's main theme is providing reasons and argument for the pillars of faith of Islam. Only for illustration purposes Quran mention some human examples of the past and to correct the corrupted accounts of such characters/personages mentioned in Torah whom narrators/scribes/clergy had character assassinated. Quran restores their honor by correcting their accounts mentioned in Torah.
Even without these Torah stories, Quranic teachings and commandments remain unaffected.
Regards
I give below a Chapter from Quran:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 98: Al-Bayyinah
[98:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[98:2] Those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and the idolaters would not desist from disbelief until there came to them the clear evidence —
[98:3] A Messenger from Allah, reciting unto them the pure Scriptures.
[98:4] Therein are lasting commandments.
[98:5] And those to whom the Book was given did not become divided until after clear evidence had come to them.
[98:6] And they were not commanded but to serve Allah, being sincere to Him in obedience,and being upright, and to observe Prayer, and pay the Zakat. And that is the religion of the people of the right path.
[98:7] Verily, those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and the idolaters will be in the Fire of Hell, abiding therein. They are the worst of creatures.
[98:8] Verily, those who believe and do good works — they are the best of creatures.
[98:9] Their reward is with their Lord — Gardens of Eternity, through which streams flow; they will abide therein for ever. Allah is well pleased with them, and they are well pleased with Him. That is for him who fears his Lord.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Please prove that this chapter has been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Jewish Bible/Torah or any other religious scripture in the world.
Quran's main theme is providing reasons and argument for the pillars of faith of Islam. Only for illustration purposes Quran mention some human examples of the past and to correct the corrupted accounts of such characters/personages mentioned in Torah whom narrators/scribes/clergy had character assassinated. Quran restores their honor by correcting their accounts mentioned in Torah.
Even without these Torah stories, Quranic teachings and commandments remain unaffected.
Regards
Shad
Veteran Member
Which is based on early text such as James, which corroborates the story.
Some books do not have verses as many are not complete texts but fragments of texts. Besides many are short enough to read in less than 5 minutes which is not much time . You are capable of reading each on your own.
Apostolikon (Paul) and Marcionite Bible (Gospel of the Lord) is again fragments of texts in response to Marcion not his work itself. The responses are those of other early church fathers which formed the basis of modern Christianity. There is no surviving text from Maricon or his followers. There are no verses to be see as his work is an interpretation and statement of belief based on this interpretation. His work in part created a foundation of Gnostic Christianity in the east which was philosophically neoplatonism. A form of Christianity, and Gnosticism, which was present in Arabia, Syria, Levant, Egypt, Mesopotamia and Persia. Early Islamic philosophy is that of neoplatonism. This concept is not found in Judaism but in foreign translations of Judaism.
outhouse
Atheistically
All I am asking you to do is post the exact scripture of one or two of your best lines that back up what you said.
Marcion never claimed Jesus did not exist, he only claimed he existed in spirit form making a physical human.
No it doesn't.
Now provide scripture that backs what you said, or admit you were in error
Shad
Veteran Member
The Infancy Gospel of Thomas
1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the waters that flowed there into pools, and made them straightway clean, and commanded them by his word alone. 2 And having made soft clay, he fashioned thereof twelve sparrows.
Quran 3:49
And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.
Gospel of Pseudo-Mathew
CHAP. 20.-- And it came to pass on the third day of their journey, while they were walking, that the blessed Mary was fatigued by the excessive heat of the sun in the desert; and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: Let me rest a little under the shade of this tree. Joseph therefore made haste, and led her to the palm, and made her come down from her beast. And as the blessed Mary was sitting there, she looked up to the foliage of the palm, and saw it full of fruit, and said to Joseph: I wish it were possible to get some of the fruit of this palm. And Joseph said to her: I wonder that thou sayest this, when thou seest how high the palm tree is; and that thou thinkest of eating of its fruit. I am thinking more of the want of water, because the skins are now empty, and we have none wherewith to refresh ourselves and our cattle. Then the child Jesus, with a joyful countenance, reposing in the bosom of His mother, said to the palm: O tree, bend thy branches, and refresh my mother with thy fruit. And immediately at these words the palm bent its top down to the very feet of the blessed Mary; and they gathered from it fruit, with which they were all refreshed. And after they had gathered all its fruit, it remained bent down, waiting the order to rise from Him who bad commanded it to stoop. Then Jesus said to it: Raise thyself, O palm tree, and be strong, and be the companion of my trees, which are in the paradise of my Father; and open from thy roots a vein of water which has been hid in the earth, and let the waters flow, so that we may be satisfied from thee. And it rose up immediately, and at its root there began to come forth a spring of water exceedingly clear and cool and sparkling. And when they saw the spring of water, they rejoiced with great joy, and were satisfied, themselves and all their cattle and their beasts. Wherefore they gave thanks to God.
Quran 19:22-26
So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten." But he called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream. And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; it will drop upon you ripe, fresh dates. So eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to [any] man.' "
You can look up the rest if you want.
Also I said Marcion started up neoplatonism within gnostic Christianity. You argue against a point I never made.
1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the waters that flowed there into pools, and made them straightway clean, and commanded them by his word alone. 2 And having made soft clay, he fashioned thereof twelve sparrows.
Quran 3:49
And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.
Gospel of Pseudo-Mathew
CHAP. 20.-- And it came to pass on the third day of their journey, while they were walking, that the blessed Mary was fatigued by the excessive heat of the sun in the desert; and seeing a palm tree, she said to Joseph: Let me rest a little under the shade of this tree. Joseph therefore made haste, and led her to the palm, and made her come down from her beast. And as the blessed Mary was sitting there, she looked up to the foliage of the palm, and saw it full of fruit, and said to Joseph: I wish it were possible to get some of the fruit of this palm. And Joseph said to her: I wonder that thou sayest this, when thou seest how high the palm tree is; and that thou thinkest of eating of its fruit. I am thinking more of the want of water, because the skins are now empty, and we have none wherewith to refresh ourselves and our cattle. Then the child Jesus, with a joyful countenance, reposing in the bosom of His mother, said to the palm: O tree, bend thy branches, and refresh my mother with thy fruit. And immediately at these words the palm bent its top down to the very feet of the blessed Mary; and they gathered from it fruit, with which they were all refreshed. And after they had gathered all its fruit, it remained bent down, waiting the order to rise from Him who bad commanded it to stoop. Then Jesus said to it: Raise thyself, O palm tree, and be strong, and be the companion of my trees, which are in the paradise of my Father; and open from thy roots a vein of water which has been hid in the earth, and let the waters flow, so that we may be satisfied from thee. And it rose up immediately, and at its root there began to come forth a spring of water exceedingly clear and cool and sparkling. And when they saw the spring of water, they rejoiced with great joy, and were satisfied, themselves and all their cattle and their beasts. Wherefore they gave thanks to God.
Quran 19:22-26
So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "Oh, I wish I had died before this and was in oblivion, forgotten." But he called her from below her, "Do not grieve; your Lord has provided beneath you a stream. And shake toward you the trunk of the palm tree; it will drop upon you ripe, fresh dates. So eat and drink and be contented. And if you see from among humanity anyone, say, 'Indeed, I have vowed to the Most Merciful abstention, so I will not speak today to [any] man.' "
You can look up the rest if you want.
Also I said Marcion started up neoplatonism within gnostic Christianity. You argue against a point I never made.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Shad was asked by outhouse to provide sources for "Jesus did not die"(on the Cross); and I endorsed him.
The above post of Shad does not even remotely touch that issue.
Does it?
Shad! Please come to the issue you claimed.
Regards
Shad
Veteran Member
The Second Treatise of the Great Seth
For Adonaios knows me because of hope. And I was in the mouths of lions. And the plan which they devised about me to release their Error and their senselessness - I did not succumb to them as they had planned. But I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me. And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I <suffered> according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance.
Gospel of Truth 20:30-32 (If you find one with verses, otherwise word search)
Having stripped himself of perishable rags, he put on imperishability
Many Gnostic views of Jesus are based on docetism, there is no material body of Christ. Jesus is some cases is just the body which Christ, spirit, leaves before death. As noted above some variations of Gnostic Christianity believed it was someone else like Simon. In one case, I do not remember the source, the body's identity is separate from that of Christ.
Matthew 27:45-46: "Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"
The interpretation uses these verses to support the division of two entities in one body; Christ as a spirit, Jesus as the body. Each has a personality but only one is the divine Christ. The physical Jesus is seen as a host inhabited by Christ not as the identity of Christ. When Christ abandons the body before its physical death, the Jesus identity of the body reemerges. This personality has no idea what is going on, it has no divine knowledge, it is not Christ. Hence the cry is made by that of someone different. It's a form of divine manifestation or possession.
You can find references in "Lost Christianities" and "Lost Scriptures" by Bart Ehrman.
For Adonaios knows me because of hope. And I was in the mouths of lions. And the plan which they devised about me to release their Error and their senselessness - I did not succumb to them as they had planned. But I was not afflicted at all. Those who were there punished me. And I did not die in reality but in appearance, lest I be put to shame by them because these are my kinsfolk. I removed the shame from me and I did not become fainthearted in the face of what happened to me at their hands. I was about to succumb to fear, and I <suffered> according to their sight and thought, in order that they may never find any word to speak about them. For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. For their Ennoias did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. I was another upon Whom they placed the crown of thorns. But I was rejoicing in the height over all the wealth of the archons and the offspring of their error, of their empty glory. And I was laughing at their ignorance.
Gospel of Truth 20:30-32 (If you find one with verses, otherwise word search)
Having stripped himself of perishable rags, he put on imperishability
Many Gnostic views of Jesus are based on docetism, there is no material body of Christ. Jesus is some cases is just the body which Christ, spirit, leaves before death. As noted above some variations of Gnostic Christianity believed it was someone else like Simon. In one case, I do not remember the source, the body's identity is separate from that of Christ.
Matthew 27:45-46: "Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"
The interpretation uses these verses to support the division of two entities in one body; Christ as a spirit, Jesus as the body. Each has a personality but only one is the divine Christ. The physical Jesus is seen as a host inhabited by Christ not as the identity of Christ. When Christ abandons the body before its physical death, the Jesus identity of the body reemerges. This personality has no idea what is going on, it has no divine knowledge, it is not Christ. Hence the cry is made by that of someone different. It's a form of divine manifestation or possession.
You can find references in "Lost Christianities" and "Lost Scriptures" by Bart Ehrman.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
@ Shad
Thanks
Since you have already read the books; please quote from other books about "Jesus did not die"(on the Cross); if possible.
Regards
Thanks
Since you have already read the books; please quote from other books about "Jesus did not die"(on the Cross); if possible.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah
I give below a Chapter from Quran:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 97: Al-Qadr
[97:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[97:2] Surely, We sent it down on the Night of Destiny.
[97:3] And what should make thee know what the Night of Destiny is?
[97:4] The Night of Destiny is better than a thousand months.
[97:5] Therein descend angels and the Spirit by the command of their Lord with every matter.
[97:6] It is all peace till the rising of the dawn.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Please prove that this chapter has been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Jewish Bible/Torah or any other religious scripture in the world.
Quranic teachings and commandments are elaborate in itself; it is a good tree its branches reach into heaven (truthful Revelation) and its roots are firmly fixed in the Earth (reason, rationality and human psyche); these are not dependent or based on corrupted stories of Torah.
Regard
I give below a Chapter from Quran:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 97: Al-Qadr
[97:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[97:2] Surely, We sent it down on the Night of Destiny.
[97:3] And what should make thee know what the Night of Destiny is?
[97:4] The Night of Destiny is better than a thousand months.
[97:5] Therein descend angels and the Spirit by the command of their Lord with every matter.
[97:6] It is all peace till the rising of the dawn.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Please prove that this chapter has been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Jewish Bible/Torah or any other religious scripture in the world.
Quranic teachings and commandments are elaborate in itself; it is a good tree its branches reach into heaven (truthful Revelation) and its roots are firmly fixed in the Earth (reason, rationality and human psyche); these are not dependent or based on corrupted stories of Torah.
Regard
gnostic
The Lost One
This is not scripture, but you did ask for sources.
Irenaeus was one of the early church father, who describe Gnostic sources, writing against gnostic literature. I believe that what Irenaeus writing about come from The Second Discourse Of The Great Seth (55, 9-56, 20):
The Second Discourse Of The Great Seth (55 said:
Simon is the Simon of Cyrene, who carried Jesus' cross for Jesus, in the gospels. But in this gnostic text, Simon was the one died on the cross, in Jesus' place.
I think in The Apocryphron Of John, or another book (I am not sure), say that Jesus' phantom or illusion tricked everyone with Jesus' apparent crucifixion and death, but I can't be bother to find the verses, because it is very late and I'm tired, so good night. :sleep:
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Shad
Veteran Member
Why not look at the Quran verses I linked with gnostic verses?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
This thread is for comparison of the text of Quran with narratives of Jewish Bible Torah.
So it would be off topic to to discuss the Christian Gospels here.
The Jews claim that Torah was dictated by G-d and written by Moses; that is altogether different claim than the claims of the Christians about Gospels.
Gospels are no where near in status to Torah.
If you like we all may be pleased to discuss Quran Chapter 3 and Quran Chapter 19 linked by you in a separate thread comparing them with the Gospels.
Will you like that? Please
Regards
gnostic
The Lost One
paarsurrey said:
In case you have gotten, shad wrote about how the Quran state that Jesus didn't die on the cross, in post 279. And that the Qur'an's claim is not the original source, nor the only source about Jesus didn't die on the cross.
You had ask for his sources about Jesus' death in your posts 313 & 331, and then disagree with what shad had posted, in your post 329.
You can ask for his sources, but you can't expect shad to find his sources about Jesus in Jewish scriptures, because Jesus was never written about in the Hebrew Tanakh or the Torah. If you wants to discuss or debate about Jesus didn't die on the cross then you have to let him look at either Christian or gnostic sources.
Any source shad find, has to be written post-Jesus' death (hence 1st century CE and onward), through Christian, Gnostic or other sources?
Off-topic or not, you did ask shad for sources. Either you ask for his sources about Jesus' death and agree that such pre-Islamic sources do exist, OR retract your earlier request for his sources and not talk about Jesus' death.
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Interesting discussion. Yet somewhat futile to ask for proofs from some of the posters. After all, Quran is a fabrication built upon fabrications. It is built upon its primitive Jewish and Christian predecessors, selecting a chunk here and a shard there. On the first page of this thread, the poster "sees" with post #5, proved it conclusively. Yet, the discussion still goes on for another 34 pages.
It does seem illogical not demand the proof from the original claims(Qur'an), but demand it from others to continue to prove the negative.
It does seem illogical not demand the proof from the original claims(Qur'an), but demand it from others to continue to prove the negative.
gnostic
The Lost One
celal said:
Well, that's usually the case with most thread started by paarsurrey.
It is quite clear to me that Muhammad didn't get his sources from supreme divine being or his lackey (Gabriel).
You are right, it is mishmash of Jewish and Christian sources, plus even traces of pre-Islamic polytheistic pagan sources (like about jinns). Muhammad wasn't living in complete isolation, especially before he proclaim himself "prophet".