Do you know who Waraqa ibn Nawfal was?
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Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah
- Thread starter paarsurrey
- Start date
Do you know who Waraqa ibn Nawfal was?
Quran Surah 5 Verse 32
(5:32) Therefore We ordained for the Children of Israel that he who slays a soul unless it be (in punishment) for murder or for spreading mischief on earth shall be as if he had slain all mankind; and he who saves a life shall be as if he had given life to all mankind. And indeed again and again did Our Messengers come to them with clear directives; yet many of them continued to commit excesses on earth.
Part of Misnah Sanhedrin 4:5
"The bloods of your brother scream out!" (Genesis 4:10) - the verse does not say blood of your brother, but bloods of your brother, because it was his blood and also the blood of his future offspring [screaming out]!
[Another explanation of the verse: for his blood was splattered over the trees and rocks [there was more than one pool of blood].
[The judges' speech continues] "It was for this reason that man was first created as one person [Adam], to teach you that anyone who destroys a life is considered by Scripture to have destroyed an entire world; and anyone who saves a life is as if he saved an entire world."
Pastek
Sunni muslim
I know it's so easy to see for everybody apart from Muslims. I'm impressed that you knew which Midrash it related to
Muslims know that many stories in the Quran were already in previous Books because Allah told us.
The Quran remind us a part of what happened before that we should know and we believe that all of this was already written before anything happen.
Thus because we believe in Qadr "Decree". Everything was already written before that any of us walk in this earth and the Book of Decree is with Allah.
That's why for us it's not at all a copy of anything before, but a reminder (in some parts) of what people had before.
12.3 We narrate unto thee (Muhammad) the best of narratives in that We have inspired in thee this Qur'an, though aforetime thou wast of the heedless.
12.110 Till, when the messengers despaired and thought that they were denied, then came unto them Our help, and whom We would was saved. (...)
12.111 In their history verily there is a lesson for men of understanding. It is no invented story but a confirmation of the existing (Scripture) and a detailed explanation of everything, and a guidance and a mercy for folk who believe.
Allah told us to "remind" or asked us if we haven't heard of this or that story. which of course means that was in the Scriptures :
2.258 Bethink thee not of him who had an argument with Abraham about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom.
2.246 Bethink thee of the leaders of the Children of Israel after Moses, how they said unto a prophet whom they had: Set up for us a king and we will fight in Allah's way.
Allah said that people should remind, so muslims don't believe the religion of Islam is something completely new to people but it has rules and stories that people didn't know or ignored or didn't believe to today or before :
87. 9 Therefore remind (men), for of use is the reminder.
87.18-19 Lo! This is in the former scrolls. The Books of Abraham and Moses.
And it's clearly explained here :
6.154 Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
6.155 And this is a blessed Scripture which We have revealed. So follow it and ward off (evil), that ye may find mercy.
6.156 Lest ye should say: The Scripture was revealed only to two sects before us, and we in sooth were unaware of what they read;
6.157 Or lest ye should say: If the Scripture had been revealed unto us, we surely had been better guided than are they.
Now hath there come unto you a clear proof from your Lord, a guidance and mercy; and who doeth greater wrong than he who denieth the revelations of Allah, and turneth away from them? We award unto those who turn away from Our revelations an evil doom because of their aversion.
In many verses you'll find that the Quran remind us things reveled before and Muhammad is a reminder.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Considering that many if not most of the quotes from Jewish literature that are being quoted here are taken out of Talmudic and Midrashic literature which is not a revealed text but a transmitted one, you are essentially making a case for the authenticity of the Rabbinic tradition.
The point of my post was to highlight the fact that too many Muslims " know that many stories in the Quran were already in previous Books because Allah told us."
You have every right to believe what you want and I have nothing against Muslims (indeed, my whole family is Muslim), I'd just like to see a move away from following without questioning. As a former Muslim I can understand why the Quran is not questioned in this way though.
Augustus
…
Intertextuality is a better term than plagiarism. Applying a modern academic concept to ancient cultural heritage is not really valid or particularly useful. Even ignoring the anachronism and different context, it also relies on knowledge of many things that we do not know for certain.
If you look at the Quran without recourse to the surrounding traditions, you would really have to come to the conclusion that the audience are already familiar with Abrahamic scripture and religious issues. As the Quran refers to both canonical and non-canonical texts, and also to contemporary Christian stories such as the 7 sleepers and the Alexander romance, it seems there must be some familiarity otherwise such verses would not make sense.
When referring to sources that the audience is familiar with you are not 'plagiarising'. It is more a commentary on and reinterpretation of aspects of the Abrahamic tradition which displays a relatively sophisticated understanding of contemporary religious issues, rather than being the simplistic 'plagiarism' that some people refer to (tellingly, Western scholars never use the term, it seems to be reserved for the internet and polemics).
Pastek
Sunni muslim
It's not a problem. We believe in what God has confirmed, so we may believe in some things you don't believe in or doubt in your own revelations.
As it's the case for Christianity, we may believe in things they don't.
If some things are not directly in your Scriptures but in other books does that mean it's untrue and we can't rely on ?
By the way we also accept some of the jewish texts called "Israiliyat".
But of of course what is in the Quran is believed to be 100% true contrary to the hadiths.
In hadith studies, Isra'iliyyat ("of the Israelites") is the body of narratives originating from Jewish and Christian traditions, rather than from other well-accepted sources that quote the Islamic prophet Muhammad.
These narratives are found mainly in works of Qur'anic commentaries and history compilations. They contain information about earlier prophets mentioned in the Bible and the Qur'an, stories about the ancient Israelites, and fables allegedly or actually taken from Jewish sources.
The acceptance of Isra’iliyyat traditions may have been strengthened by a widely known hadith cited by al-Shafi’i stating that the Prophet said, “Narrate [traditions] from the Children of Israel for there is nothing objectionable in that.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isra'iliyyat
So as you see we only tend to search and follow the truth coming from God's revelations given to people before.
Pastek
Sunni muslim
When a man comes and states that all previous scriptures have been corrupted, yet uses said scriptures to come up with his own "revelation" and use it to take control of a nation, I will call that plagiarism.
Muhammad clearly took previous works, altered them to suit his ideology and then passed them off as his own work (or Allahs), you might not call that plagiarism but where I'm from there's no other word for it
Questioning ones faith? Lol
Also many Muslims I speak to say Islam is different from other religion as its not a leap of faith, they say it has linguistic miracles, scientific miracles and many other miracles which prove that it is Gods word.
If, however, it is a leap of faith for you then I respect that
Augustus
…
Muhammad clearly took previous works, altered them to suit his ideology and then passed them off as his own work (or Allahs), you might not call that plagiarism but where I'm from there's no other word for it
There are plenty of other words for it that don't rely on an anachronism or the application of a Western academic context to ancient cultural heritage. Every single academic historian manages to discuss the obvious similarities without utilising the term 'plagiarism' [to the best of my knowledge, I have been unable to find a single example anyway. Why do you think this is?]
Part of the reason for this is that you are also assuming that the tradition is accurate in regards to its historicity, assuming dishonesty on behalf of the author, assuming the audience are unaware the Abrahamic tradition, assuming a particular nature for Muhammed's prophethood, assuming a particularly modern concept of ownership of intellectual property, assuming a particular sitz-im-leben of the Quran, etc.
It also ignores the fact that much of Jewish (and later Christian) theology was considered to be actual history at the time.
How is someone supposed to refer to concepts that are pervasive in the cultural environment without actually referring to them and committing 'plagiarism'? Not to mention that it is acknowledged that much of the content has been revealed previously?
Two things simply containing similarities does not = plagiarism.
Pastek
Sunni muslim
Also many Muslims I speak to say Islam is different from other religion as its not a leap of faith, they say it has linguistic miracles, scientific miracles and many other miracles which prove that it is Gods word.
If, however, it is a leap of faith for you then I respect that
I'm not perfect in arabic language so i can't talk about that, nor i have enought knowledge in science.
I personnaly don't search a proof because i'm among those who already believed in God first and after reading the Book it confirmed my faith in Him and i accepted the rest.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:2 - KJV
And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water,
Qur'an 11:7
As I stated before, you might not think its plagiarism, but many people do and that includes the late great Christopher Hitchens, I'm one of the people who believe the Quran contains plagiarisms.
Genesis 1:2 - KJV
And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water,
Qur'an 11:7
As I stated before, you might not think its plagiarism, but many people do and that includes the late great Christopher Hitchens, I'm one of the people who believe the Quran contains plagiarisms.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Post #1295
"And Haran died in the presence of his father Terah"
Where in Quran it is mentioned? Please.
Regards
Regards
"And Haran died in the presence of his father Terah"
Where in Quran it is mentioned? Please.
Regards
We are not discussing here "Waraqa ibn Nawfal". If you have a point, please mention it fully.
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah
The Holy Quran : Chapter 68: Al-Qalam [2]
[68:11]And yield not to any mean swearer,
[68:12]Backbiter, one who goes about slandering,
[68:13]Forbidder of good, transgressor, sinful,
[68:14]Ill-mannered and, in addition to that, of doubtful birth.
[68:15]This is because he possesses riches and children.
[68:16]When Our Signs are recited unto him, he says, ‘Stories of the ancients!’
[68:17]We will brand him on the snout.
[68:18]We will surely try them as We tried the owners of the garden when they vowed that they would certainly pluckallitsfruitin the morning,
[68:19]And they made no exceptionand did not say, ‘If God please.’
[68:20]Then a visitation from thy Lord visited it while they were asleep;
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=68&verse=11
Please prove that the above verses have been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Jewish Bible/Torah or any other religious revealed scripture in the world by quoting from that book, the reference and providing the link.
Just impossible to do it.
Quran is authored by G-d, it is the reality.
In terms of the notion "Koran dated to before Muhamad birth."and some of the pseudo scholars also , link provided by the poster, saying this. Since Muhammad could not have plagiarized Quran from the old scriptures before his own birth, it must be thrashed out by the said pseudo-scholars, pseudo-history and the pseudo-science all together evidencing on top-priority as to from which old scriptures Muhammad recited the above verses verbatim.
Regards
The Holy Quran : Chapter 68: Al-Qalam [2]
[68:11]And yield not to any mean swearer,
[68:12]Backbiter, one who goes about slandering,
[68:13]Forbidder of good, transgressor, sinful,
[68:14]Ill-mannered and, in addition to that, of doubtful birth.
[68:15]This is because he possesses riches and children.
[68:16]When Our Signs are recited unto him, he says, ‘Stories of the ancients!’
[68:17]We will brand him on the snout.
[68:18]We will surely try them as We tried the owners of the garden when they vowed that they would certainly pluckallitsfruitin the morning,
[68:19]And they made no exceptionand did not say, ‘If God please.’
[68:20]Then a visitation from thy Lord visited it while they were asleep;
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=68&verse=11
Please prove that the above verses have been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Jewish Bible/Torah or any other religious revealed scripture in the world by quoting from that book, the reference and providing the link.
Just impossible to do it.
Quran is authored by G-d, it is the reality.
In terms of the notion "Koran dated to before Muhamad birth."and some of the pseudo scholars also , link provided by the poster, saying this. Since Muhammad could not have plagiarized Quran from the old scriptures before his own birth, it must be thrashed out by the said pseudo-scholars, pseudo-history and the pseudo-science all together evidencing on top-priority as to from which old scriptures Muhammad recited the above verses verbatim.
Regards
I think it's you who needs to prove to us that it is the word of G-d.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Do you mean that since earth and water (the only two similar words) are mentioned in Jewish Scripture, so any other book written after that which has mentioned these two words has copied it from the Jewish Scripture?
Or you mean if Jewish Scripture had not mentioned it there would have been no earth and no water? Everything started with the Jewish Scripture?
Please
Regards
Tumah
Veteran Member
I'm not sure if you understood what I was saying. A number of the sayings that are being quoted here are not revelations, they're rabbinic sayings and traditions that were passed down orally until the redaction of the Talmudic and Midrashic works. For instance the Mishnah quoted earlier in Sanhedrin 4:5 is a statement from a Mishnaic Rabbi about a tradition he had received from his Rabbi about what the Jewish court would say to the witnesses of a capital punishment case. Its not a revelation from G-d, just an Oral tradition about an observation.
Yet by including it in the Qur'an in the name of Allah, the Islamic tradition is tacitly admitting that there the Jewish Sages were invested with the capability of knowing Allah's thoughts even without being directly told through revelation.
Being Jewish, I am very comfortable with that. But are you?
Tumah
Veteran Member
As far as I can tell there are a few options:
1. You really didn't understand his argument. In which case, perhaps this site isn't for you.
2. You did understand his argument but you're trying to deflect the point onto a completely unrelated idea that is easily denied so that you can win the argument. In which case, nobody's buying it.
3. You understood the argument, and you aren't trying to deflect, but you have no good counter argument, so you're just stating whatever pops into your head. In which case, perhaps its time to consider the possibility that you might be wrong about what you think is true.