Is religion inferior to logic ?

[Nakosis]

Bandwagon.
When That's not what a rational person counts as fact.
When two persons accept different facts, one of them is probably wring.

Or it is possible they could both be wrung.

And a logical operation involving incorrect premises yields unreliable results. Best to start with facts can work reliable tested rather than faith-based premises,

Not always. Sometimes a logical operation involving faulty facts can work reliable enough to be convincing. Scientists often run into this problem. That's why science continues to come up with new ways to test scientific theories. Since we can't know absolutely everything in the universe we have to allow for a little faith in our premises.

What is the "framework of facts?"

The set of assumed or taken for granted concepts that are use to develop a conclusion in a logical operation.

 

[PureX]

In the interest of protecting vulnerable children, should society eliminate religious schools? Ensure all students are exposed to the full marketplace of ideas?

No. For one thing religion does not stop anyone from learning about other ideas. And for another, no child can or should have a multitude of meta-ideas (like theism) dumped on them. It would be too confusing and they lack the life experience to reasonably assess them.

 

[PureX]

Agreed.

Public service and educational institutions, organizers and coödinators, individuals.

I am aware of no focused entity besides religion that discusses, debates, or teaches ethics. And as a result, in our culture, ethical imperatives, such as they are, mostly come from either religious tradition, or from the requirements of survival in a competition and greed driven capitalist culture. And the result is a constant and undeniable progressive moral decay that no one seems to know how to repair. And as the moral decay and ethical ignorance continues, the force of fascism becomes the knee-jerk popular go-to solution.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I am aware of no focused entity besides religion that discusses, debates, or teaches ethics.

I was taught that as secular in Denmark as following my wife's education to become a social worker Danish style. It is there as secular, but the believers in scientism won't accept that, because it is not rational and objective as they subjectively believe in those words.

 

[Audie]

But doesn't an effective democracy depend on an educated and independent populace?

Democracy and Islam don't go together

 

[muhammad_isa]

Democracy and Islam don't go together

Yes they do..
Do not look at the world, look at what G-d teaches in the Qur'an.

 

[F1fan]

No. For one thing religion does not stop anyone from learning about other ideas. And for another, no child can or should have a multitude of meta-ideas (like theism) dumped on them. It would be too confusing and they lack the life experience to reasonably assess them.

There are religious schools that are quite secular in their education, that being they teach science and not creationism. But if they also indocrinate children into religious belief how is that an advantage over schools that don't indocrinate children?

 

[PureX]

There are religious schools that are quite secular in their education, that being they teach science and not creationism. But if they also indocrinate children into religious belief how is that an advantage over schools that don't indocrinate children?

Currently our culture and society offers no means besides religion for understanding, discussing, debating, and evaluating our ethical imperatives. This makes religion an extremely important part of any child's education. Especially in a historical, comparative context. Our 'secular' schools are failing us by not teaching kids the history and comparisons of religion. Especially as it regards forming and protecting our ethical imperatives.

 

[F1fan]

I am aware of no focused entity besides religion that discusses, debates, or teaches ethics. And as a result, in our culture, ethical imperatives, such as they are, mostly come from either religious tradition, or from the requirements of survival in a competition and greed driven capitalist culture. And the result is a constant and undeniable progressive moral decay that no one seems to know how to repair. And as the moral decay and ethical ignorance continues, the force of fascism becomes the knee-jerk popular go-to solution.

This decay has occurred in a highly religious nation, so how can anyone avoid looking at the negative influence of bad religion? Look at your own negative attitudes towards atheists, could it be that the selfish attitudes of conservative Christianity influenced you in subtle ways? Ideally Christians have a pretty clear, albeit basic, guideline of moral behavior set out by Jesus, but boy do they struggle to follow what he taught. When believers can't even admit they aren't following their guru then how reliable is any religion as a moral guide? Look at how jihadists un Islam interpret the Quran to a degree that they justify murdering innocent people.

As I have noted I would be impressed if believers were unusually moral and balaned, and non-believers were unusually immoral, I would be impressed. But we often see non-believers able to articulate a moral framework on their own and is superior to many believers.

 

[F1fan]

Currently our culture and society offers no means besides religion for understanding, discussing, debating, and evaluating our ethical imperatives.

False. There is moral philosophy that outlines moral behavior. Social contrat theory as advocated by Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, John Stewart Mills, etc. all argue for cooperation as a moral duty and don't rely on religion. And even if you were correct religion does NOT offer a reliable moral guidance given all the corruption, greed, and unethical actions by people who claim to be religious.

This makes religion an extremely important part of any child's education.

How? Give us an argument that illustrates religious indocrination will result in more ethical children. Use facts and data.

Especially in a historical, comparative context. Our 'secular' schools are failing us by not teaching kids the history and comparisons of religion. Especially as it regards forming and protecting our ethical imperatives.

How secular schools fail has many causes that are irrelevant to teaching about religions. Money and test score performace seems to be a big problem, along with social media and devices being distractions for more kids.

 

[muhammad_isa]

How? Give us an argument that illustrates religious indocrination will result in more ethical children.

Indoctrination?
Are these children who receive religious education imbeciles, or drugged/hypnotised?

It should be part of the syllabus, and when the child becomes of age, they can decide for themselves
whether it has any benefit to them or not.

 

[PureX]

This decay has occurred in a highly religious nation, so how can anyone avoid looking at the negative influence of bad religion?

Fear, greed, ignorance, etc., poisons everything it touches, including religion. And the advent of industrial strength capitalism with it's commercial advertising pushing the message of selfish materialism 24-7 and it's "every man for himself" immorality have pretty much overwhelmed everything in it's path. Blaming religion for failing and succumbing to it is a waste of time. We can also blame government, art, science, culture, and ourselves for falling victim to it's relentless immorality. And even as religion has been the only entity even remotely trying to stand against this onslaught of moral decay here you are attacking it. And wanting to get rid of it all together.

And replace it with what? Abject Darwinian selfishness?

Look at your own negative attitudes towards atheists, could it be that the selfish attitudes of conservative Christianity influenced you in subtle ways?

I just don't like willful ignorance and dishonesty. I have no argument with atheism itself. And there is just as much willful ignorance and dishonesty among theists as atheists.

Ideally Christians have a pretty clear, albeit basic, guideline of moral behavior set out by Jesus, but boy do they struggle to follow what he taught.

Yes. It's a very hard row to hoe in the face of the relentless onslaught of selfishness and greed that fuels every aspect of our current culture. Especially when even the religious organizations claiming to represent Jesus' message have become poisoned by it.

When believers can't even admit they aren't following their guru then how reliable is any religion as a moral guide?

Still, they are the ONLY moral guides we have. Yes, they are failing us, or we are failing them, ... it doesn't really matter which. But where ELSE is moral guidance and reasoning going to come from? The capitalists have all the power, and it sure isn't going to come from them! We see billionaires with the moral/ethical maturity level of the average spoiled 5-year-old. Presidents and celebrities being praised for being even LESS then that! And where is the voice of ethical and moral maturity, and reason coming from? What institution has been created and empowered to shine the light of such wisdom into the selfish darkness?

There is none.

And still you want to destroy the only aspect of our culture that even attempts it. And why? Because it so often fails in that attempt. This doesn't even make sense.

Look at how jihadists in Islam interpret the Quran to a degree that they justify murdering innocent people.

Look at how many Muslims DON'T interpret their religion in that way. Also, keep in mind that a lot of the world's Muslims dislike and disrespect the west precisely BECAUSE of it's blatant greed, selfishness, and immorality.

 

[PureX]

False. There is moral philosophy that outlines moral behavior. Social contrat theory as advocated by Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, John Stewart Mills, etc. all argue for cooperation as a moral duty and don't rely on religion. And even if you were correct religion does NOT offer a reliable moral guidance given all the corruption, greed, and unethical actions by people who claim to be religious.

Yep, and none of these are being taught in our schools. None of our politicians have ever heard of them, or if they have, they certainly never speak of the ethical imperatives these people studied and debated. What percentage of the average citizenry do you think have any idea at all who any of those people are or what any of those people contributed to the human discussion on ethics? How many famous celebrities that we watch and admire routinely just because they entertain us know of or will ever even mention any of them?

The only place any of the ethical ideals those people studied will EVER be uttered in public will be buried in some religious sermon given in some church some Sunday. And it will have almost no effect at all on anyone in the face of the 24-7 commercial advertising that we are all constantly subjected to by our capitalist overlords.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Currently our culture and society offers no means besides religion for understanding, discussing, debating, and evaluating our ethical imperatives. This makes religion an extremely important part of any child's education. Especially in a historical, comparative context. Our 'secular' schools are failing us by not teaching kids the history and comparisons of religion. Especially as it regards forming and protecting our ethical imperatives.

Just to point the obvious. Your culture is not humanity. And neither is mine. So for the world religion is not the only source.

 

[Valjean]

Yes they do..
Do not look at the world, look at what G-d teaches in the Qur'an.

Democracy is self-rule. Democrats make their own rules, for specific pirposes.
Submission is divine command rule. Rules are not chosen, but imposed by God at his pleasure, often for no clear social benefit.

Freedom vs slavery. Take your pick.

 

[F1fan]

Indoctrination?
Are these children who receive religious education imbeciles, or drugged/hypnotised?

So you don’t understand what indoctrination is and means.

It should be part of the syllabus, and when the child becomes of age, they can decide for themselves
whether it has any benefit to them or not.

So you are ok with schools teaching ABOUT all religions? Me too. But I have a problem with a school teaching that any one religion is truth.

 

[Valjean]

I was

I am aware of no focused entity besides religion that discusses, debates, or teaches ethics. And as a result, in our culture, ethical imperatives, such as they are, mostly come from either religious tradition, or from the requirements of survival in a competition and greed driven capitalist culture. And the result is a constant and undeniable progressive moral decay that no one seems to know how to repair. And as the moral decay and ethical ignorance continues, the force of fascism becomes the knee-jerk popular go-to solution.

Do you consider Humanism and Ethical Culturism religions?
How about university philosophy departments or social studies in high school.

Haven't people been bemoaning the moral decay of society for several millennia? Haven't many wars been motivated and encouraged by religion? Hasn't religion been responsible for much human misery and crimes against humanity?

If capitalist greed and Fascism have been driving anti-social behavior, perhaps we should switch to a socialist system, instead.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Do you consider Humanism and Ethical Culturism religions?
How about university philosophy departments or social studies in high school.

Haven't people been bemoaning the moral decay of society for several millennia? Haven't many wars been motivated and encouraged by religion? Hasn't religion been responsible for much human misery and crimes against humanity?

If capitalist greed and Fascism have been driving anti-social behavior, perhaps we should switch to a socialist system, instead.

Well, I use a different definition of religion than you, so let us just leave there, because I am not in the mood for a the correct definition of religion debate.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Democracy is self-rule. Democrats make their own rules, for specific pirposes.
Submission is divine command rule. Rules are not chosen, but imposed by God at his pleasure, often for no clear social benefit.

Sharia is a framework.
It needs to be implemented by people.
I believe in a democracy, and if people choose pious Muslims to represent them,
they need to decide the details of law.

Freedom vs slavery. Take your pick.

Nobody wants freedom to commit murder, except murderers.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you are ok with schools teaching ABOUT all religions? Me too. But I have a problem with a school teaching that any one religion is truth.

..not if it is the parents wishes.