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Is religion inferior to logic ?

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God does exist. Facts about God exist all around.
What are these facts about God? What is their significance? Why do you say God exists?
Everything about God and God's system adds up perfectly. Critical thinkers should have no problem with God unless they are so critical that their only goal is to prove others wrong. This is a far cry from seeking knowledge, truth, and facts.
What's "adds up perfectly" mean?
Knowledge can be sought in many ways. Ruling out falsehoods is one approach.
Why assume God exists or does not exist? One who seeks knowledge and truth does not assume either way. One must be open to all possibilities. Let the cards fall where they will. Putting enough pieces together and going through many doors and it will lead to God.
The rational position is to believe in that which is well evidenced, and defer belief in claims lacking evidence.
Science will Discover God before religion will? Science, by studying God's handy work is walking straight toward God. The only limits are created by bias and a limited view.
Science has been studying nature's handiwork for a long time, but the farther it walks, the farther God seems to retreat. It keeps finding natural, mundain explanations for "God's handiwork."
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
This is the tip of the iceberg. There is so much more. Fractals, Quantum entanglement, and Dimensions. God is so far ahead of us. We are ants. It all unfolds like a giant tree can grow from a small seed. The genius of God's creation is that the universe unfolds in such a way mankind will be able to figure it all out in time. God is hiding nothing. It all waits to be Discovered.
Yeah, God/Gods is/are not hiding anything except him/themselves, so that the religious can make various different stories about him/them and continue fighting and perpetrating atrocities on each other. What a perfect game, does not ever end!
 

PureX

Veteran Member
You are ignoring the big picture though, aren’t you? It is not simply about the individual, it is also about how the individual interacts in society. What we believe affects how we participate in the group.
But for the group (humanity) to be fulfilled and to 'advance' we need the variety of individual cognition. And so a balance, or compromise, must be struck between the individual and the collective. We can believe as we choose, but we cannot behave as we choose. However, even our behavior must be open to individual choice enough for it to be effective (so as to know what the effects, are). Though not so open that it threatens to destroy the collective's cohesion.
You seem to agree that we must have a broader view than simply meeting the needs and wants of any one particular individual.
We must have both views in mind, most of the time. Fortunately, as humans, we are able to do this if we are willing.
You have not established that the gods myth is the only placebo belief system that will satisfy or meet the needs that you say are being met with current placebo beliefs.
I don't have to. You are not in charge of judging that, and neither am I. There are many 'belief systems' that can and do help people live better and happier lives. And they decide what they are, and which they choose. Our part, as members of the collective, is only to help the collective decide when the actions of people predicated by some belief system or other must be curtailed for the well-being of the collective.
You also haven’t acknowledged that the gods myth placebo is common simply by the fact that that is the reference frame that is widely taught or indoctrinated during development.
It doesn't matter. The people in any given collective will decide for themselves what belief system they choose to support, collectively, and which they will choose to discourage. As is their prerogative. As some systems will better support the well-being of the collective while others will better support the well-being of the individual. And the collective will decide which it prefers.

Our collective supports and encourages capitalism when it has proven to be very damaging to both our individual and our collective well-being. Our collective has also chosen to support and encourage selfish individuality even to the point where it threatens to destroy the well-being and cohesion of the collective. These are not logical choices. They are dangerous, socially toxic choices. And yet they are the choices our collective has determined to encourage and support. Humanity will find out how wise or unwise these choices were, in the end. And if we survive them, we will learn from it.
We both seem to agree that mere belief materially affects how one feels and how one behaves, but it is a double-edged sword. Let’s take the extreme example of the Heaven’s Gate cult who, in 1997, believed that the Hale-Bopp comet masked the detection of an alien spacecraft that was on its way to earth. They believed that if they committed suicide at the comets closest approach, they would leave their bodily containers, enter the alien spacecraft and it would take them through Heaven’s Gate into a higher existence. This mere belief had a profound effect on the reality of the 39 suicide victims and on the reality of any friends and family they may have had.

We can and should ask whether there are better options possible than what we are currently doing. To disagree would be like llike saying a peasant should be happy with its lot in life because that is simply the way it is and how it has always been. You often talk of not limiting possibilities, yet you insist on remaining fixed in the current system. I don’t get that.
The Heaven's Gate people could and did consider the options. And they chose the one they did. The rest of us reject that option because from our perspective, the results were detrimental. Their error did the rest of us a service. It showed us how and why we need to be vigilant over our own 'belief systems'. And especially vigilant regarding adopting the belief systems of others so that we no longer have to think for ourselves.

Even if we could have stopped those people from adopting their belief system (we couldn't), we are all better off for their having had the right and ability to make and follow their choice.
I’m going to pass on debating whether psychedelic drugs cause hallucinations or open windows into an alternate reality. Maybe we can take that up another day. I think you can guess my short answer. :)
There is no debate to be had, as there is no way for us to know. It simply becomes another 'belief system' option for us to choose from.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Yes, religion does change, but much more slowly than scientific knowledge or technology. The utility of its laws and doctrines lags behind social needs, and is often counterproductive.
We should not be placing all responsibility for our collective ethical advancement on religion.
Their purpose isn't social benefit, but to please God or avoid His wrath.
Exactly why we should not be placing all ethical responsibility on them.

And yet what other social entity is taking on that responsibility? ... None.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Is it not appropriate for the "critical thinker" to questions all sides, especially one's own? :)

Then learn that the we of the human species is not the same we as for the everyday world. As long as you conflate these 2, you will be stuck in that the latter we is subjective, but you don't notice that.
 
Yes, religion does change, but much more slowly than scientific knowledge or technology. The utility of its laws and doctrines lags behind social needs, and is often counterproductive.

As a general point unrelated to any specific belief or doctrine, society benefits from having both conservative/tradition based beliefs and progressive/change focused beliefs. Change can be good but you always want forces pushing against change

Progressive beliefs (as in change focused not necessarily politically liberal), can either bring benefits or harms. Communism, Nazism, eugenics, social Darwinism and all kinds of harmful or faddish beliefs have been progressive beliefs that were often opposed by traditional belief systems.

Sometimes the advantages of tradition based beliefs are that they prevent people from believing in something worse, and most new ideas turn out to be either unremarkable or problematic. It is a handful of key innovations that bring benefits. We tend to just think in general terms though "change is good" and airbrush the problems from the narrative.

An ideal system has enough inertia to avoid the worst kinds of faddishness and idealistic wishful thinking, but not too much to refresh itself when needed.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It doesn't matter. The people in any given collective will decide for themselves what belief system they choose to support, collectively, and which they will choose to discourage. As is their prerogative. As some systems will better support the well-being of the collective while others will better support the well-being of the individual. And the collective will decide which it prefers.

Our collective supports and encourages capitalism when it has proven to be very damaging to both our individual and our collective well-being. Our collective has also chosen to support and encourage selfish individuality even to the point where it threatens to destroy the well-being and cohesion of the collective. These are not logical choices. They are dangerous, socially toxic choices. And yet they are the choices our collective has determined to encourage and support. Humanity will find out how wise or unwise these choices were, in the end. And if we survive them, we will learn from it.

Ahh. So you advocate for the free marketplace of ideas. Let the strong ideas with value survive and let the weak ones whither and die off?

Is the marketplace really free, though, if depenency is created in beliefs before one is mature enough to make an independent rational choice?

I don't have to. You are not in charge of judging that, and neither am I. There are many 'belief systems' that can and do help people live better and happier lives. And they decide what they are, and which they choose. Our part, as members of the collective, is only to help the collective decide when the actions of people predicated by some belief system or other must be curtailed for the well-being of the collective.

Again, someone has put themselves in charge of judging which beliefs should be held and take strong protectionist actions to preserve those chosen beliefs. Might we consider it akin to any exploitative activity that takes advantage of a vulnerable set of the population and creates a dependency in that vulnerable population to benefit the exploiter?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Might we consider it akin to any exploitative activity that takes advantage of a vulnerable set of the population and creates a dependency in that vulnerable population to benefit the exploiter?
No system is perfect .. democracy is no exception..
..but I find it better than any alternative. :)
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Ahh. So you advocate for the free marketplace of ideas. Let the strong ideas with value survive and let the weak ones whither and die off?

Is the marketplace really free, though, if depenency is created in beliefs before one is mature enough to make an independent rational choice?
Nothing is ever really free. Especially in a "market".
Again, someone has put themselves in charge of judging which beliefs should be held and take strong protectionist actions to preserve those chosen beliefs. Might we consider it akin to any exploitative activity that takes advantage of a vulnerable set of the population and creates a dependency in that vulnerable population to benefit the exploiter?
We institute governments to make these kinds of decisions on behalf of our collective. If the government is not doing that for us we should eliminate it and set up one that will.
 
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MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Nothing is ever really free. Especially in a "market".

We institute governments to make these kinds of decisions on behalf of our collective. If the government is not doing that for us we should eliminate it and set up one that will.

In the interest of protecting vulnerable children, should society eliminate religious schools? Ensure all students are exposed to the full marketplace of ideas?
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Your assertion is meaningless without facts. Let's see if you offer any.

Another claim, and yet no list of these facts you claim are all around us.

The only knowledge about gods are in historical lore. There are no facts that demonstrate any of the many gods exist outside of human imagination. I understand you believe otherwise, but that's irrelevant. Facts and a coherent explanation of the facts are what we need, and you fail.

Another claim with no facts. So it's irrelevant.

No one has to assume negatives. No one asumes Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny don't exist. So the focus is on those who do assume any sort of supernatural exists, and why they can't show any facts that justify the assumption.

More claims. You don't even try to explain how your beliefs are true. Who cares?

You should work to exmine why you believe in ideas that not only have no evidence, but are contrary to facts and reason. Follow your own advice.

Odd how so many believers in God are mean, cruel, liars, deceptive, cheaters, murderers, etc. If believers had an amazing consistency of decent and moral behavior that exceeds the norm I would be impressed. Alas, believers are like any other sinner, and many can't even see their own vice.

Here's an example of a false thing a believer says about others. I'm curious why you aren't thinking about your character and integrity by saying false things about otehrs. This is what I just said about believers not knowing their own vice, and that suggests they are not as spiritual as they think.

More false statements. If you are talking about yourself here, then be accurate and avoid trying to control others by dragging them into the dogmatic world you think is real. This illustrates why religious thinking is a failure.

You can't make a free choice when you have decided an irrational religious framework is absolute truth. You are the one who is trapped and have no free choice beyond your religious walls. Do you know who is free? Non-believers.
Are you really open to all possibilities? You fight so hard to hang unto your beliefs just as much as any theist.

You assume I am giving you my beliefs. I am giving you facts. I have pointed you in the direction by which you can discover these very same facts for yourself. Of course, that does take work. Perhaps religion has corrupted your view that knowledge should be served up so one can accept or reject it. Is not your view as narrow as the theists you fight so hard to be wrong?

It's all about knowledge. Can you teach theists something? Perhaps placing logic and reason first is a good course. Can theist teach you something? They can teach you things do exist beyond the physical. Each has a limited view yet both theists and atheists need each other to see the entire picture. That's why both come together to express those views. Who will meet in the middle in order to see more?

People can have many beliefs that are wrong. That's ok as long as accepting a belief is not the end of the journey to Discover the real truth. Are you at an end? How many theists are at an end?

What is the first thing a wise man realizes once a wise man truly becomes wise? Anyone? Anyone?? The first thing a wise man realizes once a wise man truly becomes wise is that there is so much more to learn.

AS with God, one Discovers something and opens a door that leads to more knowledge, ideas and doors that can be opened in order to acquire more knowledge. The journey to seek knowledge never ends yet those that accept beliefs like theists and atheists sit on their hands. Where is the wisdom? Where is the Intelligence? I truly do not see it.

Sometimes those that seek find what they are looking for. Those that do not seek find very little. Useless energy spent are those that fight so hard to be right. It has never ever been about being right. It's about WHAT IS!!

Words are cheap. That is why this physical world exists. Each must Discover for themselves through their free choices what the Truth is. We are Living our Lessons. That is why I place truth in the world and point the direction to Discover the answers. I am never going to tell anyone what to believe or to make choices for them. Each must do these things on their own.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
What are these facts about God? What is their significance? Why do you say God exists?

What's "adds up perfectly" mean?
Knowledge can be sought in many ways. Ruling out falsehoods is one approach.

The rational position is to believe in that which is well evidenced, and defer belief in claims lacking evidence.

Science has been studying nature's handiwork for a long time, but the farther it walks, the farther God seems to retreat. It keeps finding natural, mundain explanations for "God's handiwork."
The rational position is to Discover for yourself rather than depend on others to bring their beliefs and sometime knowledge to you.

All the secrets of God and the universe stare us in the face. Actions of God can not be altered by mankind. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how. It was there all along.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
In trying to understand any subject , it is firstly of most importance to understand the first principles of a subject. Any branch of knowledge that is taught , should always have strong routes , from a starting point to a conclusion . If this basic principle is not adhered to , then the practitioner becomes ill-informed , having an inadequate awareness of the facts.
Let us now be clear in our understanding of what is a fact compared to interpretation . A fact is something that is known or proved to be true , it is not something that is solely written on paper . A fact has supporting evidence such as observations , a fact can sometimes be an axiom , something that is self evidently true . If we ignore the facts and/or axioms then we are just being subjective as opposed objective. This information is then ill-informed information and can be misleading to a student ,allowing them false ideologies of a subject .

If a diety existed , then this diety would require the ability to think !

Therefore God = Wavefunction / Volume

A fact generally ends up being something that a majority of people accept is true. Doesn't mean it is actually true. Just means a majority of people have been convinced of its truth. What one person accepts as fact can be different than what another person has accepted as fact.

Faith is one way that people use to convince themselves something is true. One's logic depends on the facts they accept as true. If one is religious in faith they accept certain things as true. So their logic is based on their religion being true.

So logic only guarantees truth in the framework of the set of facts you are working with. I don't see logic being superior to the framework of those facts.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Are you really open to all possibilities? You fight so hard to hang unto your beliefs just as much as any theist.
You make it sound as if religious concepts have evidence. They don't. Are you oen minded to Islam and willing to convert? If not, why not?

Being open minded means being able to consider evidence, but theists don't offer evidence that allows a critical mind to be convinced. You are heavily criticized for many claims and failing to offer evidence, and that is your fault. Addressing open minds means you NEED to present evidence.
You assume I am giving you my beliefs. I am giving you facts.
Your claims are not facts. You might think they are, but you are mistaken. I'm not sure how a person can be so confused about what a fact is and isn't.
I have pointed you in the direction by which you can discover these very same facts for yourself. Of course, that does take work. Perhaps religion has corrupted your view that knowledge should be served up so one can accept or reject it. Is not your view as narrow as the theists you fight so hard to be wrong?
You ost claims and beliefs but offer no facts or coherent explanation. There is nothing to agree with in what you post. You have an inflated belief about what you believe as if you are some sort of guru. This is why religion is inferior to logic, it is subjective belief that can be believed without evidence.
It's all about knowledge. Can you teach theists something?
Critical thinkers try, but theists are stubborn.
Perhaps placing logic and reason first is a good course. Can theist teach you something?
Anyone can offer something to others, but there has to be a coherency to what is said for it to have any impact on otehrs. Religion tends to be repeated beliefs that are not unique.
They can teach you things do exist beyond the physical.
There is nothing beyond the physical that is known to exist. This is an example of a non-fact by you.
Each has a limited view yet both theists and atheists need each other to see the entire picture. That's why both come together to express those views. Who will meet in the middle in order to see more?
Theists offer no "other side" that is fact-based and rational.
People can have many beliefs that are wrong. That's ok as long as accepting a belief is not the end of the journey to Discover the real truth. Are you at an end? How many theists are at an end?
You don't have a solid grasp on what is real and what is imagined.
What is the first thing a wise man realizes once a wise man truly becomes wise? Anyone? Anyone?? The first thing a wise man realizes once a wise man truly becomes wise is that there is so much more to learn.
Not to believe in irrational concepts.
AS with God, one Discovers something and opens a door that leads to more knowledge, ideas and doors that can be opened in order to acquire more knowledge. The journey to seek knowledge never ends yet those that accept beliefs like theists and atheists sit on their hands. Where is the wisdom? Where is the Intelligence? I truly do not see it.
No gods are known to exist. You can't have knowledge about fictional characters by insisting they are real.
Sometimes those that seek find what they are looking for.
You seem to be in this category. Of course every religious believer finds what they are looking for, it's just not factual. If you think you found God I suggest you found an idea that others talked about and you adopted some version of it.
Those that do not seek find very little. Useless energy spent are those that fight so hard to be right. It has never ever been about being right. It's about WHAT IS!!
Critical thinkers seek truth by following facts and using reason. Religious folks don't.
Words are cheap. That is why this physical world exists. Each must Discover for themselves through their free choices what the Truth is. We are Living our Lessons. That is why I place truth in the world and point the direction to Discover the answers. I am never going to tell anyone what to believe or to make choices for them. Each must do these things on their own.
Words are cheap, and that is why it's wise to be a critical thinker and not be too hasty and willing to believe in ideas that make the ego feel satisfied.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We should not be placing all responsibility for our collective ethical advancement on religion.

Exactly why we should not be placing all ethical responsibility on them.
Agreed.
And yet what other social entity is taking on that responsibility? ... None.
Public service and educational institutions, organizers and coödinators, individuals.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Are you really open to all possibilities? You fight so hard to hang unto your beliefs just as much as any theist.
After opening to all possibilities, they must be sorted and the unsound ones dropped. How is the dross to be eliminated if not by critical assessment of tested facts?
You assume I am giving you my beliefs. I am giving you facts. I have pointed you in the direction by which you can discover these very same facts for yourself. Of course, that does take work. Perhaps religion has corrupted your view that knowledge should be served up so one can accept or reject it. Is not your view as narrow as the theists you fight so hard to be wrong?
Facts are accepted when they're evidenced and tested. Your religious 'facts' are not.
Discovering these facts for yourself would involve the scientific method, would it not? Facts require obeservation and objective verification.
It's all about knowledge. Can you teach theists something? Perhaps placing logic and reason first is a good course. Can theist teach you something? They can teach you things do exist beyond the physical. Each has a limited view yet both theists and atheists need each other to see the entire picture. That's why both come together to express those views. Who will meet in the middle in order to see more?
Theists don't place logic and reason first. They make claims about things beyond the physical, but without objective evidence. There is no middle when one side brings nothing substantial to the table.
What is the first thing a wise man realizes once a wise man truly becomes wise? Anyone? Anyone?? The first thing a wise man realizes once a wise man truly becomes wise is that there is so much more to learn.
But wouldn't a wise man become so by sorting the unevidenced from the myriad claims? What methods would a wise man use for this?
It has never ever been about being right. It's about WHAT IS!!
Huh?
There are endless claims about what is. They can't all be right. Wisdom lies in distinguishing the right from the not-right; the 'WHAT IS' from WHAT IS NOT.

Knowing "WHAT IS" depends on being right. Being right depends on critical analysis and fact-checked evidence, ie: "placing reason and logic first."

That's what I see. It's very clear!
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The rational position is to Discover for yourself rather than depend on others to bring their beliefs and sometime knowledge to you.
OK. How?
All the secrets of God and the universe stare us in the face. Actions of God can not be altered by mankind. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how. It was there all along.
We figured out how they flew by applying science to the question. What do we find when we apply the scientific method to the existence of God or the many claims of the various religions?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A fact generally ends up being something that a majority of people accept is true. Doesn't mean it is actually true. Just means a majority of people have been convinced of its truth. What one person accepts as fact can be different than what another person has accepted as fact.
Bandwagon.
When That's not what a rational person counts as fact.
When two persons accept different facts, one of them is probably wring.
Faith is one way that people use to convince themselves something is true. One's logic depends on the facts they accept as true. If one is religious in faith they accept certain things as true. So their logic is based on their religion being true.
And a logical operation involving incorrect premises yields unreliable results. Best to start with empirically tested rather than faith-based premises,
So logic only guarantees truth in the framework of the set of facts you are working with. I don't see logic being superior to the framework of those facts.
What is the "framework of facts?"
 
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