Is Russia had right to afraid from West agenda? ?

[Martin]

Yes, I am sure Trump would be praising Putin to the skies while negotiating with Putin for hotels in Ukraine.

The Farting Trumpet and Putrid Putin. Bring me my sick bucket!

 

[Martin]

If the rest of the world lets Putin, for lack of a better word, take Ukraine, it wouldn't just end, right? Before World War II, other nations negotiated with Adolf Hitler to allow Germany to take pieces of other nations, but he didn't stop.

That's exactly the problem, because what this looks like is not just Ukraine. It's really threatening the whole [post-World War II] order in Europe, or the post-Cold War order.

Maybe in the U.S. we have the luxury and the privilege of not worrying that we're going to be taken over by Russian troops. But I think a lot of Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union doesn't have that luxury right now.
Conflict In Ukraine: Clark U Russian Politics Expert Explains | Worcester, MA Patch

Putin wants to re-establish the Soviet empire, and he wants NATO out of former soviet bloc countries.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Looks like Russia may need to shore up its relations with China to say nothing of Europe:

The Bank of China has now stopped financing Russian oil trades.

 

[Revoltingest]

@Revoltingest
I am not condoning Russia's behavior.

But it seems to me that you are speaking of NATO as an immaculate, holy, sinless organization.
And the OP mentioned Iraq, Libya, Syria.

If you do think it is holy and immaculate, just say it.

I don't believe in the concepts of "immaculate", "holy",
"sinless", or any such religious descriptions. Moreover,
I don't judge NATO or any country or alliance of countries
to be perfect. However.....alliances for self defense are
useful.
Useful =/= Perfect
Useful = Better to have than to lack

 

[Revoltingest]

That Crimea was annexed after a referendum too.

Perhaps a coerced voluntary annexation?
Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation - Wikipedia
Excerpted....
In February and March 2014, Russia invaded and subsequently annexed the Crimean Peninsula from Ukraine. This event took place in the aftermath of the Revolution of Dignity and is part of the wider Russo-Ukrainian War.

On 22–23 February 2014, Russian president Vladimir Putin convened an all-night meeting with security service chiefs to discuss the extrication of the deposed Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych. At the end of the meeting, Putin remarked that "we must start working on returning Crimea to Russia".[4] On 23 February, pro-Russian demonstrations were held in the Crimean city of Sevastopol. On 27 February, masked Russian troops without insignia[41] took over the Supreme Council (parliament) of Crimea[42][43] and captured strategic sites across Crimea, which led to the installation of the pro-Russian Sergey Aksyonov government in Crimea, the conducting of the Crimean status referendum and the declaration of Crimea's independence on 16 March 2014.[44][45] Russia formally incorporated Crimea as two Russian federal subjects—the Republic of Crimea and the federal city of Sevastopol on 18 March 2014.[46][47][note 2] Following the annexation, Russia escalated military presence on the peninsula and leveraged nuclear threats to solidify the new status quo on the ground.[49]

 

[sun rise]

Do you think it is fair that the NATO destroyed one of the wealthiest countries in the Mediterranean (Libya)..and so far has done nothing to restore its ancient splendor?

It is custom that if you break something, you pay for it.

Is it because doublestandardism has been normalized?
Is it because the NATO is entitled to bring us destruction and turmoil...and still be considered holy, sinless, immaculate?

The west did not destroy Libya. Islamic terrorists and dictators did that.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't believe in the concepts of "immaculate", "holy",
"sinless", or any such religious descriptions. Moreover,
I don't judge NATO or any country or alliance of countries
to be perfect. However.....alliances for self defense are
useful.
Useful =/= Perfect
Useful = Better to have than to lack

Thank you for clarifying that.

 

[Estro Felino]

The west did not destroy Libya. Islamic terrorists and dictators did that.

Could you explain me this sentence?

We came, we saw, he died. (Gaddafi)

Signed: Hillary Clinton.

It is also written in those emails, so I can demonstrate it in any international penal court.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not if you count the invasions of each individual nation within NATO, including Germany, France, Italy, Britain, U.S. Put together, all of these nations have invaded a lot of countries on every continent.

That is, if we're going to make some sort of "contest" out of this.

I'm referring to NATO countries of the NATO era.
Let's not treat Nazi Germany as a predictor of
what modern Germany will do. Otherwise we
might have to subjugate all of Scandinavia, lest
the Vikings begin raids around Europe again.

I see what's going on....broaching every possible
perspective that treats NATO countries & others in
the vicinity as existential threats to Russia, thereby
justifying invading Ukraine, & perhaps others.
These posts don't overtly defend or advocate for
invasion...but they hint at a rapacious west & a
vulnerable Russia.
Devil's advocacy?
Or nostalgia for Soviet socialism?

 

[Estro Felino]

Perhaps a coerced voluntary annexation?
Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation - Wikipedia
Excerpted....
In February and March 2014, Russia invaded and subsequently annexed the Crimean Peninsula from Ukraine. This event took place in the aftermath of the Revolution of Dignity and is part of the wider Russo-Ukrainian War.

On 22–23 February 2014, Russian president Vladimir Putin convened an all-night meeting with security service chiefs to discuss the extrication of the deposed Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych. At the end of the meeting, Putin remarked that "we must start working on returning Crimea to Russia".[4] On 23 February, pro-Russian demonstrations were held in the Crimean city of Sevastopol. On 27 February, masked Russian troops without insignia[41] took over the Supreme Council (parliament) of Crimea[42][43] and captured strategic sites across Crimea, which led to the installation of the pro-Russian Sergey Aksyonov government in Crimea, the conducting of the Crimean status referendum and the declaration of Crimea's independence on 16 March 2014.[44][45] Russia formally incorporated Crimea as two Russian federal subjects—the Republic of Crimea and the federal city of Sevastopol on 18 March 2014.[46][47][note 2] Following the annexation, Russia escalated military presence on the peninsula and leveraged nuclear threats to solidify the new status quo on the ground.[49]

If you think the first was not valid, let there be a second referendum with international supervision.
No electronic or mail in...this time.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why should Ukrainians exist solely to placate Russian concerns? You wouldn't accept it from your country, so why demand it from others?

Yes, we take the sensibilities of our neighbors into consideration. (the case of Pakistan and China are different. We are at an undeclared war with them).

In NATOs defense those, its not exactly as if Russia give those countries around them a lot of options here, we have seen what happens to countries that isn't in NATO and which Russia have an interest in, they are getting taken over by them and their government replaced with a pro Russian puppet. And as we have seen demonstrated here in the Ukrainian conflict, is that Russia is not to concerned about just moving troop in if they feel like it.

If Russia's interests are threatened, then (IMHO) Russia will act, NATO or no NATO. NATO is not all-mighty. An example is Nixon's fleet in Bay of Bengal during Bangladesh war.
Troop movement has no meaning unless the objectives are attained. If not a puppet, then at least someone who would not go against their interests. That is what Ukraine failed to do.

 

[Revoltingest]

NATO had taken the Trip Wire approach to defending Europe. It's conventional forces were insufficient to deal with Soviet conventional forces. The purpose of NATO forces and the entire alliance itself was that if Russia attacked NATO, the US would unleash its nukes.

Nukes are an option, but not primary.
NATO prepared for conventional warfare.
After all, why would Russia want to invade
& occupy a country devastated by nuclear
bombs, & riddled with radiation hazards?

Subsequently, as Russia achieved nuclear parity, NATO had to beef up its ability to defend with conventional forces without resorting to nukes.

The old MAD strategy.
Alas, it works only for NATO member states.
Scandinavia should be considering this carefully.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you think the first was not valid, let there be a second referendum with international supervision.
No electronic or mail in...this time.

Crimea will handle its affairs as Putin sees fit.

 

[Stevicus]

I'm referring to NATO countries of the NATO era.
Let's not treat Nazi Germany as a predictor of
what modern Germany will do.

Isn't that what people are doing right now in regards to Russia? They're using Hitler and Nazi Germany as a predictor of what modern Russia will do. They're not even the right nation.

I see what's going on....broaching every possible
perspective that treats NATO countries & others in
the vicinity as existential threats to Russia, thereby
justifying invading Ukraine, & perhaps others.
These posts don't overtly defend or advocate for
invasion...but they hint at a rapacious west & a
vulnerable Russia.
Devil's advocacy?
Or nostalgia for Soviet socialism?

It might be preferable to simply address what is being said, rather than try to guess or project the possible motives of the people saying it.

 

[Godobeyer]

The issue is, that Russia is not under any threat from the west, a buffer zone such as Ukraine makes hardly any difference in a world today when you can launch missiles half across the world or when planes can easily cover great distances. I mean the US launched stealth bombers from the US that flew all the way to Iraq to do missions.

They would cross nine time zones and travel 7,000 miles with a lethal package: 32,000 pounds of “smart” bombs to be dropped on targets in Iraq.

And the amount of troops that would be needed, were it even considered to invade Russia is absolutely insane. Russia would see this coming years away of time. Besides that EU and Russia as we know have been trading gas etc. for a long time, when Germany makes a deal with Russia of building a huge and very expensive gas line, clearly that is not an indication of them wanting to threaten or attack Russia, so instead of them keep assuming the worse they could benefit a lot more from working together with the west. This whole cold war thing is absolutely non sense in the modern day. And it is not only Russia's fault, its just as much EU and the US fault.

But still unjustified wars shouldn't be tolerated, no matter who does it.

Ukraine PRESIDENT want to have Nuclear weapon.
Want join to NATO which. I remember last few. Months Western countries come to black Sea.By war ships.
Now it's not secret NATO IS BASICALLY is ANTI Russia and China.
Russia said: words of West is not Same as acts on ground. West installed missiles in borders of Russia.

 

[Augustus]

Yes, we take the sensibilities of our neighbors into consideration. (the case of Pakistan and China are different. We are at an undeclared war with them).

Maybe you should have done more to placate them then. Give them each some territory perhaps, let them decide who should be the Prime Minister, etc.

That's how it works isn't it?

 

[Godobeyer]

If I remember correctly you are from Algeria (sorry if mistaken).

Would you accept the following situation:

Algeria can never do what it wants, never make its own decisions, it can only do what makes France happy. If they do not do what makes France happy, then France gets to invade Algeria again and say it was your fault and you deserved it because Algeria only has a right to exist with the goodwill of France. Algeria doing what it wants is just poking the French cock(erel)

Yes i won't accept Algeria used by France.
Now Algeria in middle between Russia and West.
I Won't accept Algeria follow any country agenda. Mean nor Europe or Russia.

Same to Ukraine leader should not threaten Russia by allie to NATO.
Ukraine uses by West against Russia. That's what Russia believe. That's facts not claim by Russia.
West destroied most of regimes allie to Russia.So Russia had reason to afraid.

 

[Estro Felino]

Crimea will handle its affairs as Putin sees fit.

We are speaking of a very small region.
Surveys confirm the referendum did reflect people's will.
It is impossible to create a false narrative, when the evidence is overwhelming.

Unless the NATO wants to disregards people's will...and wants Crimeans to be with Ukraine against their own will....

 

[Revoltingest]

Isn't that what people are doing right now in regards to Russia? They're using Hitler and Nazi Germany as a predictor of what modern Russia will do. They're not even the right nation.

Are you claiming that because Putin is being compared
to Hitler, that Germany should be seen as posing the
same threat that Nazi Germany did?

The Putin-Hitler analogy is just that...a comparison, &
nothing more. I predict possible Putin behaviors based
upon his history, agendas, actions, & statements.

It might be preferable to simply address what is being said, rather than try to guess or project the possible motives of the people saying it.

I asked because of how your advocacy appears to me.

 

[Revoltingest]

We are speaking of a very small region.
Surveys confirm the referendum did reflect people's will.
It is impossible to create a false narrative, when the evidence is overwhelming.

Unless the NATO wants to disregards people's will...and wants Crimeans to be with Ukraine against their own will....

Do you see some problem in Crimea that should
be currently addressed by NATO? I don't know
why you focus upon Crimea when Ukraine is
invaded by & at war with Russia.