Is Satan actually the good guy?

[McBell]

And you miss the whole moral of the story! God set Satan up! If you are going to recite scripture to mock the bible it is only fair that I point out the obvious way you err. Let us just say that God is omniscient. Lets say that God knew that Job no matter what tribulation he endured would never curse his God. There is no wager, God is not gambling or taking a risk to lose his perfect servant. What God does do is set Satan up to be defeated as we see he is done when Job never curses God and also gives Job the opportunity to defeat Satan Which is something we all must do in order to become more godly, and because Job didn't curse God therefor defeating Satan he was blessed double all he had to begin with. You must have forgotten that part. Satan causes loss, pain, grief with his limited power. He could have chose to try to entice Job or show Job more Love than God or even tried to black mail Job; but instead he kills everything Job Loves, and owns and causes him to lose all his financial stability. Sounds like a real nice guy to me. God on the other hand set Satan up to be defeated, and blessed his servant for defeating Satan even though he already knew before hand that Job would prevail. In His mercy he returns all Job had double. of course this is my understanding and opinion of the story according to the bible.

So you are basically saying that the "moral" of the story is that God will allow The Satan to put some one through a living hell for no other reason than to show that The Satan is wrong?

Unfortunate when people see God as causing harm when in reality it is Satan who caused harm. God didn't say to cause harm. He didn't give Satan any directions, He allowed Satan the power to do as he will with what Job had, and Satan used that power for evil. God in his mercy wouldn't have allowed Satan that power if he had one speck of doubt that Job would fail. That is the omniscience of God to know that Job would prevail and then be rewarded. In my honest opinion.

So your opinion is that God is so petty and vain as to allow an innocent bystander to become not only a pawn in his game with The Satan, but to also allow The Satan to put said innocent bystander through hell for no other reason to verify his all knowingness?

And you have the audacity to claim that all harm is from The Satan?

 

[McBell]

There is something in the bigger picture that seems to have been overlooked. Pegg has tried to show you.
Satan was not challenging. GOD, he was challenging Job. He was saying that human faith was shallow, dependant upon selfishness and self interest. Was he right?

Satan already had two perfect humans that he had managed to turn away from God. Here was an imperfect man that satan thought was a certainty to buckle under pressure.

When God asked satan if he had set his heart on his servant Job, it was because this man had already come to satan's attention. There was no one like him as far as faithfulness went, yet satan was determined to break him. God can foreknow the outcome of everything and he was so certain of Job's integrity, that he allowed satan to test him to the limit. (1Cor 10:13) There was always a line of demarcation, that satan was not permitted to cross.

Job was a very special case with a very good outcome. As a man of faith, Job would have had the same faith as Abraham when he was asked to sacrifice his precious son, Isaac. (Heb 11:17-19) He would have had full faith in the resurrection of his children.

His life situation was returned with bonuses. 10 more children, increased wealth and a wonderful hope for the future when all of his family would be reunited in the kingdom of God that Messiah would rule. (Heb 11:13)

What was also proven is that imperfect men could retain their faith and integrity under extreme test, because their love for God was greater than their love for themselves and for the temporary things of this world.

Christ retained his integrity under satan's temptations as well, proving that Adam and his wife could have made the right choices.

Satan is permitted to test mankind in ways that God never could. He did not ask satan to rebel, nor did he expect Adam and his wife to disobey him, but seeing as how it happened, he would use it to his advantage. The devil implied that all humans will abandon God if the going got tough.

How are we individually doing in this test? Are we like Job, sticking to God in the face of any test? Or are we like Adam and Eve?...and even satan himself, looking out for something better for ourselves? Ditching God when things go wrong?

So in other words, we mere mortal humans are nothing more than the playing pieces for some game that is being played between god and the satan?

 

[crossfire]

lol,
the 'deceiver' is at it again


2Cor 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light.

You mean people keep mistaking Satan for God? Who'd have thunk that? (genocidal maniacs not withstanding)

 

[Searching For Truth]

So you are basically saying that the "moral" of the story is that God will allow The Satan to put some one through a living hell for no other reason than to show that The Satan is wrong?

So your opinion is that God is so petty and vain as to allow an innocent bystander to become not only a pawn in his game with The Satan, but to also allow The Satan to put said innocent bystander through hell for no other reason to verify his all knowingness?

And you have the audacity to claim that all harm is from The Satan?

Maybe your definition or concept of words differs from mine. A game can be won or loss. If there is no chance that one can loose then there is no game

Who did the harm to Job?

 

[McBell]

Maybe your definition or concept of words differs from mine. A game can be won or loss. If there is no chance that one can loose then there is no game

Who did the harm to Job?

If you are not interested in honest discussion...

if you are, please be so kind as to address the points.

Your call...

 

[dust1n]

Maybe Satan's rebellion against God was similar to that of the American colonies' rebellion against the English Crown; liberty vs. tyranny.

I always thought that would make a top selling novel.

 

[Blackdog22]

So you are basically saying that the "moral" of the story is that God will allow The Satan to put some one through a living hell for no other reason than to show that The Satan is wrong?



So your opinion is that God is so petty and vain as to allow an innocent bystander to become not only a pawn in his game with The Satan, but to also allow The Satan to put said innocent bystander through hell for no other reason to verify his all knowingness?

And you have the audacity to claim that all harm is from The Satan?

Id also take into account that Jobs entire family died in this process. People seem to brush aside the fact that actual people, women, children, sons, died quite brutally as if they were insignificant pieces, but God didnt seem to care about them. He was only interested in Jobs well being. Another proof of Gods selfish, vein, favoritism at the expense of everyone else.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It is a concept that has been evolving for over a thousand years.

Adversary
Fallen Angel
Ha-Satan
Devil

Trying to read into it using a late Christian conception and then applying that to the Jewish OT just isnt going to cut it.

Im focusing on the narrative rather than it's validity in this case. :0)

 

[Searching For Truth]

If you are not interested in honest discussion...

if you are, please be so kind as to address the points.

Your call...

Point being? I thought I was addressing the O.P. who is the bad guy according to the bible God or Satan. My question stands who did the harm to Job?

 

[JayJayDee]

So in other words, we mere mortal humans are nothing more than the playing pieces for some game that is being played between god and the satan?

You seem to like putting your own interpretation on what everyone else is saying, whilst not contributing much to the discussion in any positive manner yourself......is there a purpose to your comments except to find fault with others?

If there is a contest between God and the devil, in which man is 'the ham in the sandwich' so to speak, and man is given the option to choose whom he will serve, what of it? Does the Creator need your approval to do what he does? Can mere humans with a completely limited perspective tell God that he is doing it wrong?

The Bible likens that to the clay dictating to the potter. The potter has the prerogative of throwing a piece of clay in the bin.
If I am a pawn on some kind of celestial chessboard, then I am happy to play my part....as long as I am still in the game...if you get my drift.

If you could see what God sees and know what God knows, then you might be in a position to question his activities and motives.

I do not judge God....He is the one who will judge me.

Trying to make God the bad guy whilst making satan out to be the good guy, is what lawyers are for. Thankfully God doesn't need a lawyer....He is very capable of defending himself with me or without me.

 

[Skwim]

There is something in the bigger picture that seems to have been overlooked. Pegg has tried to show you.
Satan was not challenging. GOD, he was challenging Job.

So when Satan said to god "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” why did god then say to Satan “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him”?

Trying to make God the bad guy whilst making satan out to be the good guy, is what lawyers are for.

Well, god did incite Satan against Job, and to my way of thinking, to incite to someone to ruin an otherwise guiltless man isn't being a good guy.

Job 2:3
3 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.”
​

 

[Blackdog22]

Point being? I thought I was addressing the O.P. who is the bad guy according to the bible God or Satan. My question stands who did the harm to Job?

Hitler never actually killed anyone. I suppose you would consider him innocent yes?

 

[McBell]

You seem to like putting your own interpretation on what everyone else is saying, whilst not contributing much to the discussion in any positive manner yourself......is there a purpose to your comments except to find fault with others?

If there is a contest between God and the devil, in which man is 'the ham in the sandwich' so to speak, and man is given the option to choose whom he will serve, what of it? Does the Creator need your approval to do what he does? Can mere humans with a completely limited perspective tell God that he is doing it wrong?

The Bible likens that to the clay dictating to the potter. The potter has the prerogative of throwing a piece of clay in the bin.
If I am a pawn on some kind of celestial chessboard, then I am happy to play my part....as long as I am still in the game...if you get my drift.

If you could see what God sees and know what God knows, then you might be in a position to question his activities and motives.

I do not judge God....He is the one who will judge me.

Trying to make God the bad guy whilst making satan out to be the good guy, is what lawyers are for. Thankfully God doesn't need a lawyer....He is very capable of defending himself with me or without me.

So basically your answer to my question is "yes" and that as long as you get to live to play the game you could care less about how moral said game is, right?

Good thing you were not one of Jobs family, eh?

 

[JayJayDee]

So basically your answer to my question is "yes" and that as long as you get to live to play the game you could care less about how moral said game is, right?

No actually ...I was saying that you don't get to dictate morality to God. You don't get to question what or how the Creator does because you basically have no idea what he is doing or why he is doing it. The little you know appears to be very distorted.....it's a common problem. :ignore:

Good thing you were not one of Jobs family, eh?

Why? Job entertained a wonderful hope for his children and it wasn't heaven.
This life was NEVER going to be all there is.

Job knew that all his children would sleep in death until the family were reunited by the resurrection. (John 5:28, 29; Heb 11:13)

This is what all of God's people believed until Hellenism influenced them to believe that they had an immortal soul that left the body at death and went elsewhere.
This is not what the Bible teaches. :no:

 

[McBell]

No actually ...I was saying that you don't get to dictate morality to God. You don't get to question what or how the Creator does because you basically have no idea what he is doing or why he is doing it. The little you know appears to be very distorted.....it's a common problem. :ignore:

When have I dictated anything to your god?
Interesting how you hide behind him.
Also interesting is you avoidance of answering direct questions.

Though i have found this to be a common tactic of those who believe in God.

I wonder, do you apply this might makes right philosophy to areas other than your favored deity?

This life was NEVER going to be all there is.

Bold empty claim.

A claim you can not substantiate outside your wanting it to be true.

Job knew that all his children would sleep in death until the family were reunited by the resurrection. (John 5:28, 29; Heb 11:13)

This is what all of God's people believed until Hellenism influenced them to believe that they had an immortal soul that left the body at death and went elsewhere.
This is not what the Bible teaches. :no:

I understand that that this is your belief.
Do you understand that you have nothing to substantiate it beyond your merely wanting it to be true?

 

[Reverend Rick]

That's because Satan doesn't really matter. If you skip to the end, he loses.

Yes he does, but have you ever asked yourself, why would an all powerful God who has the ability to bind Satan for a thousand years and throw the false prophet and Satan into the lake of fire have to give Satan a season to be loose beforehand?

 

[Searching For Truth]

Hitler never actually killed anyone. I suppose you would consider him innocent yes?

Did God order Satan to bring harm on Job?

 

[BruceDLimber]

In the Baha'i view, God is One, Supreme, and has no equal or rival! There is thus no "devil" out there competing with Him.

And "satan" merely refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.


Peace,

Bruce

 

[Father Heathen]

And "satan" merely refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.

Can the two not be reconciled within a harmonious balance rather than one or the other being repressed?

 

[no-body]

Did God order Satan to bring harm on Job?

If a criminal came up to me beforehand and asked me if he could "test" one of my children by seeing how they would defend themselves against psychological torture, murder, attacks, theft, etc and I said yes I wouldn't technically be at fault either.

God doesn't have to play by the rules, Satan does. Satan is clearly the hero of the picture. He knows he will lose in the end but he bravely fights against the tyranny of an unjust being.