Is Satan actually the good guy?

[Poetic-Misprint]

God is the Deceiver, not Satan/Lucifer/However you choose to call him.
If you take the enormous tribute to atrocity that some call the "Holy Bible" literally, God created two humans in a world where Good and Evil exist, but he told them nothing of it, and demanded they never try to learn anything of it. He also commanded his other creations, who knew more and were older, to basically drop everything and care for these ignorant creatures.
So one guy gets fed up with this idea, decides that they're not so great and neither is the totalitarian politician of a father he's living under, and does something. He doesn't even like these things at first, but they should at least know something about the world they're living in, and what exists in it. So he gives the chick some fruit that will show her the way, he gives her education and light about the full circle of the world and the knowledge that she lives among.
She needs to share this with her still-ignorant husband and she does. He too becomes educated. This is a bad thing, according to God. Educating yourself in all things and the idea that he may create something bad is wrong. So is being aware of these fact and of yourself. So what does he do? He banishes his pretty little creatures and starts sexism, xenophobia and genocide for all.
You can't call the flood or Sodom and Gomorrah anything but genocide. He didn't like what people were doing with their lives, so he massacred them all. He thinks it is okay to force your beliefs down the throats of others and you're only a good person if you do things HIS way. That's fundamentally impossible, by the way, if you understand the human condition at all!
Satan, what does he do? Not much after Eden. In some versions, he even continues to serve and punish all the souls God finds bad. In others, he just wants souls to be his. If that's the case, Hell's a lot less racist, homophobic and small-minded than heaven. More interesting, too. Nice to meet ya, Marquis de Sade.
Job was an attempt to show a man that God isn't gonna save him no matter how miserable he gets. That the big guy in the sky isn't nearly so great as you might think. He even wanted a guy who was the biggest god fangirl ever, who was STARVING HIMSELF IN THE DAMN DESERT to realize that it doesn't have to ve the way god says. Is it really so wrong to suggest a question of faith? Or to offer a guy stranded in the desert food and water?
How many people does Satan commit genocide upon? How many does he deceive for the purpose of wanting to look good? How many people does he banish for having an opinion, huh?
Yes, I think he's the good guy, if you haven't guessed, and God is the bad guy. But, then again, you're asking a Luciferian.

 

[Skwim]

Retracted

 

[uberrobonomicon4000]

Just remember this. Nothing really matters.

 

[JayJayDee]

So when Satan said to god "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” why did god then say to Satan “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him”?

God cannot bring unjust punishment upon an innocent and righteous man....but satan has no qualms about doing that.

Satan told God to "put forth his hand" against a man whose conduct was beyond reproach. If a test of faith was going to take place, then satan would have to conduct it. In this, satan revealed the maliciousness of his personality. He was unscrupulous in his attack on everything Job held dear. Yet the man took it all and did not ascribe anything improper to God. When that failed to break Job's integrity, satan implied that the test had not gone far enough; he said that if Job's life was on the line that he would buckle and desert his God.

This test was not just Job's....by implication, satan's accusations include all of us.
Satan said, "everything that A MAN has, he will give in behalf of his soul". He was accusing all men, not just Job. This is our test too. We may not suffer to the extent that Job did, but we all suffer the same components of that test.

Job's victory is a victory for humankind, proving that the devil cannot break our integrity to God, no matter what he throws at us. We can 'give' satan a victory, but he can never 'take' it from us if our love for God is strong and our motives are genuine.

Job's example is still encouraging us in this 21st century. :yes:

Well, god did incite Satan against Job, and to my way of thinking, to incite to someone to ruin an otherwise guiltless man isn't being a good guy.

Job 2:3
3 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.”
​

Notice the wording. It was not God who incited satan at all. God's question to satan was "have YOU considered my servant Job?" Satan was already 'considering' this man's lifecourse. Perhaps he was already scheming out ways to break his faith. He was an outstanding example as there was 'no one like him in all the earth'.

God said it was satan who was inciting HIM to 'ruin Job without cause'.

Satan challenged his motive and accused Job of only serving God for purely selfish reasons....Job proved that satan was a liar.

God knew his servant Job. He knew that his faith was up to such a test. (1 Cor 10:13) He certainly lost a lot in the short term, but what he gained in the long term was immeasurable.
The example he left for us is priceless!......We are all Job!

What is our lifecourse telling God? What answer are we giving the devil?

 

[Searching For Truth]

In a very real sense, yes.

Job 2:3
3 The Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause.”

I ask did God order Satan to do harm to job in which you answer In a very real sense, yes. Then proceed to highlight

You(Satan)incited Me(God) against him(Job) to ruin him(Job) without cause.

How do you translate that to God ordering Satan to bring harm to Job? It clearly reads that Satan is doing the action.

I think your helping my case, not debating it.

 

[Skwim]

God cannot bring unjust punishment upon an innocent and righteous man....but satan has no qualms about doing that.

But he's complicit in Satan's deeds. Without god's "okay" Satan would have never put Job to the test.

Notice the wording. It was not God who incited satan at all.

You're quite correct, and I've retracted my reply. It was in error. Thank you for setting me straight.

 

[Searching For Truth]

Without god's "okay" Satan would have never put Job to the test.
/quote]

What evidence do you have of this? If one is to believe in a Satan then it is his job to test all the servants of God. Job is just one specific story.

 

[JayJayDee]

But he's complicit in Satan's deeds. Without god's "okay" Satan would have never put Job to the test.

As I see it, man was already behind the 8 ball. He was imperfect and prone to sin as a result of Adam's disobedience; he was in desperate need of a rescuer.....but that was a long way off in the big scheme of things. The universal issues raised in Eden needed universal time to resolve. We are unfortunately confined to 'earth' time by the rotation of our planet. (something that in the original scheme posed no problems at all) But since rebellion took place first in the spirit realm, it must be fought primarily in that realm. We are tied to it by satan's involving God's human family in his defection.

In his imperfection, man could think that there was no hope for him to be an integrity keeper; that he was doomed to sin, no matter how hard he tried to avoid it....heck! some people take that line even today. "I can't help the way I am". :sad4:

Well Job proved that we CAN help the way we are. If we look for excuses to fail, we will always find them. Job looked for ways to be victorious in his approach to God's worship. His love was not 'self' focused...it was 'God' focused.

When satan made the challenge concerning Job (and all of us along with him,) what would it have proved if God had prevented it? He would have been displaying a great lack of faith in the most righteous man on earth. He allowed Job to furnish the answer to satan on our behalf, because of his righteousness. (Prov 27:11) Never would he have allowed someone with a weak faith to undergo such a test. He knew Job's limits.

Jesus too was tempted by the devil. God did not prevent that either. This is how we prove the validity of our own faith and obedience. We know where the test is coming from....Job didn't. He was not privy to what was going on behind the scenes. Even when he believed that God was responsible for his hardships, he still knew his God well enough to believe there was a good reason for what was happening to him.
In Job's case people always focus on what he lost....look at Job 42:10-17 to see what he gained as a reward for his faith.

Satan knows he cannot win in this contest with his declared opponent, but then he never did question God's power. What he questioned was his sovereign right to rule and direct his human family. He declared that if he was given a free hand, he could turn all humanity away form God. This was bolstered by his ability to turn other angels against God as well. What an ego trip!

There is a great court case going on in heaven and we are part of either the prosecution or the defense, depending upon whose side of the issue we support. Job's story is not there for nothing. Read Hebrews 11 and see all the faithful ones mentioned. What did they all have in common? Incredible faith that God was true to his word and would reward them for their faith.

"Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.  For by means of this the men of old times had witness borne to them."
"...without faith it is impossible to please [him] well, for he that approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him." (Heb 11:1, 2, 6)

You're quite correct, and I've retracted my reply. It was in error. Thank you for setting me straight.

Bless you for the humility to acknowledge that.

 

[Skwim]

When satan made the challenge concerning Job (and all of us along with him,) what would it have proved if God had prevented it?

But the only one god was proving anything to was Satan. (Of course, that the story made its way into print is, in itself, pretty amazing considering that no one was around to record the supposed dialogue between the two. But then I suppose one can always claim that god related the story to Job, or Moses, or whoever wrote it down.) In any case, as related, there's no indication the incident was propagated for the benefit of mankind, but instead was a resolution to a difference of opinion between god and Satan.

So, because god felt Satan was worthy of impressing, Job had to suffer. Hardly an admirable undertaking, even for a mere fallible human.

 

[mayuboar]

God is the Deceiver, not Satan/Lucifer/However you choose to call him.
If you take the enormous tribute to atrocity that some call the "Holy Bible" literally, God created two humans in a world where Good and Evil exist, but he told them nothing of it, and demanded they never try to learn anything of it. He also commanded his other creations, who knew more and were older, to basically drop everything and care for these ignorant creatures.
So one guy gets fed up with this idea, decides that they're not so great and neither is the totalitarian politician of a father he's living under, and does something. He doesn't even like these things at first, but they should at least know something about the world they're living in, and what exists in it. So he gives the chick some fruit that will show her the way, he gives her education and light about the full circle of the world and the knowledge that she lives among.
She needs to share this with her still-ignorant husband and she does. He too becomes educated. This is a bad thing, according to God. Educating yourself in all things and the idea that he may create something bad is wrong. So is being aware of these fact and of yourself. So what does he do? He banishes his pretty little creatures and starts sexism, xenophobia and genocide for all.
You can't call the flood or Sodom and Gomorrah anything but genocide. He didn't like what people were doing with their lives, so he massacred them all. He thinks it is okay to force your beliefs down the throats of others and you're only a good person if you do things HIS way. That's fundamentally impossible, by the way, if you understand the human condition at all!
Satan, what does he do? Not much after Eden. In some versions, he even continues to serve and punish all the souls God finds bad. In others, he just wants souls to be his. If that's the case, Hell's a lot less racist, homophobic and small-minded than heaven. More interesting, too. Nice to meet ya, Marquis de Sade.
Job was an attempt to show a man that God isn't gonna save him no matter how miserable he gets. That the big guy in the sky isn't nearly so great as you might think. He even wanted a guy who was the biggest god fangirl ever, who was STARVING HIMSELF IN THE DAMN DESERT to realize that it doesn't have to ve the way god says. Is it really so wrong to suggest a question of faith? Or to offer a guy stranded in the desert food and water?
How many people does Satan commit genocide upon? How many does he deceive for the purpose of wanting to look good? How many people does he banish for having an opinion, huh?
Yes, I think he's the good guy, if you haven't guessed, and God is the bad guy. But, then again, you're asking a Luciferian.

And lucifer and all that you know about him comes from where.

think about it.

 

[Blackdog22]

No actually ...I was saying that you don't get to dictate morality to God. You don't get to question what or how the Creator does because you basically have no idea what he is doing or why he is doing it. The little you know appears to be very distorted.....it's a common problem. :ignore:

I know I am butting in here, but I would ask on what grounds do you determine that Gods action are moral? You don't know why God does or doesn't do anything anymore than anyone else and it you plan on judging Gods actions as being good then we can actually judge his actions as being bad.

Why? Job entertained a wonderful hope for his children and it wasn't heaven.
This life was NEVER going to be all there is.

Job knew that all his children would sleep in death until the family were reunited by the resurrection. (John 5:28, 29; Heb 11:13)

This is what all of God's people believed until Hellenism influenced them to believe that they had an immortal soul that left the body at death and went elsewhere.
This is not what the Bible teaches. :no:

So murdering sprees are okay because families will be reunited in heaven? You are actually trying to twist the murder and loss of children for a lifetime into something good? How far would you be willing to go to ensure God always comes out looking good? I would seriously like to know the answer to this because it seems limitless.

 

[Blackdog22]

Did God order Satan to bring harm on Job?

Assuming that God is omniscient then yes, he passively did. Satan suggested that Job would turn away from God if he took away his possessions, God then decided to make that a reality and even told Satan he could harm job and his family (even murder his family apparently) as long as Job wasn't harmed because Job = awesome and kids and women = God doesn't seem to care.

So God actually decided to make an imaginary scenario, suggested by Satan, a reality and then upped the stakes to not only taking away his belongings but actually torturing him and murdering his wife. If you don't find God guilty I dont imagine you would ever find fault with God even if he was Satan himself.

Another way to put it is imagine my worst enemy telling me that if he hit my kid in front of me and I did nothing about it, that my son would grow to hate me. So I say, "Okay, I will actually let you do that, but you can not only torture my kid you can also kill their Mom, brothers, sisters and aunts." My worst enemy is obviously a dick, but Am I, the father, a good or bad moral being?

 

[JayJayDee]

But the only one god was proving anything to was Satan.

Really? What did God have to prove to someone he could snuff out in a heartbeat?
The issues went way deeper than that. The whole issue is about the use of free will.
God deemed that free will was worth all the sacrifices we would need to make to retain it. It is a precious gift that can never be taken for granted. We have seen first hand what happens when it is abused.

(Of course, that the story made its way into print is, in itself, pretty amazing considering that no one was around to record the supposed dialogue between the two. But then I suppose one can always claim that god related the story to Job, or Moses, or whoever wrote it down.)

Yes it was Moses, and he was also told about creation and Adam and Eve etc. which were all thousands of years before his time. If God did not want it written down then why would he have instructed Moses to do so?

"ALL scripture is inspired of God" (2 Tim 3:16) I believe that it is, (I have invested 40 years of deep study to prove it to myself) Others disbelieve. We all have our reasons for accepting or rejecting the Bible as the word of God....sometimes we do not even know why, ourselves.

No one would ever have known how man got here or how God created the universe if it wasn't for Genesis. Moses' account in Genesis could not have been so accurate as to the order of creation and the fall of humanity, resulting in the need of the Messiah, if God had not informed him of what to write. Nothing would have made sense.

In any case, as related, there's no indication the incident was propagated for the benefit of mankind, but instead was a resolution to a difference of opinion between god and Satan.

That is a rather short sighted observation. There is so much more to the issues between God and the devil than a mere 'difference of opinion'.

The knowledge of good and evil was supposed to remain in God's jurisdiction. The fact that equal opposites exist in all facets of creation, is fact...but the equal opposite of good was never supposed to reach mankind. If man had simply obeyed God's command, none of us would have ever known what an evil thing was. We would not have needed a Messiah, reconciliation with God or redemption from our sinful condition.

With the first rebel inducing Adam and his wife to join his rebellion, he not only let the 'genie' out of the bottle, but he demonstrated how evil he could make the world become under his influence. With him as its ruler, we see fallen humanity imbued with his awful traits of jealousy, anger, violence, greed, self interest, corruption and selfish ambition. With no regard for the cost, satan has led mankind down a dark path from which only God could save them. But he leaves the choice up to us...that way he ends up with only genuine lovers of truth as his worshippers. The self interested ones who imitate the devil, filter themselves out of contention.

God could have made us all robotic without the ability to make our own choices, but then we would not be made in God's image. It is free will that is under trial here.

Since this 'up-start' spirit began his rebellion and induced both angelic and human sons of God to take an opposing course, God has allowed him almost free reign to test out all the members of his family. Angels and men were both given similar options.

Although we sometimes have difficult tests, we have guidance from the Creator through it all by means of his written instructions and help from the spirit he provides to give us strength to endure like Job did.

God is offering all his intelligent creation choices. God's rule or satan's? We've seen first hand what satan's rule has done for the earth and humankind up to now.....are we voting for it to continue or will we support the incoming Kingdom of God?

It is already written that God's kingdom will forceably remove satan's rulership from the earth and replace it with the rulership we should have enjoyed all along. (Dan 2:44) Those who support the opposition will be removed right along with it.
Only a fool would choose to support the loser and suffer the same fate.

So, because god felt Satan was worthy of impressing, Job had to suffer. Hardly an admirable undertaking, even for a mere fallible human.

"Impressing"??? Good grief! Who said satan was worthy of impressing? Very soon now he is going into a bottomless pit with his demon hordes for a thousand years whilst God undoes all the damage he has done on earth. The heavens are already cleansed and the earth is about to undergo a tremendous change. Our eternal future is hinged on the choices we make right now.

The Kingdom is coming...ready or not. Those not found supporting God's side of the issue will suffer the same fate as the devil.

God tells us to choose wisely. :yes:

 

[JayJayDee]

I know I am butting in here, but I would ask on what grounds do you determine that Gods action are moral?

I would have thought that to be a no brainer BD22. God invented morality.
Since you have convinced yourself that God is immoral, by whose definition is he immoral? Yours?

Puny humans can accuse the Creator of the universe of being immoral??? Now, that's actually funny.

You don't know why God does or doesn't do anything anymore than anyone else and it you plan on judging Gods actions as being good then we can actually judge his actions as being bad.

That is the point. You are free to judge God however you like.
Do you believe that you will change the outcome of his stated purpose by doing so?
It's already cast in concrete. We already know who the losers are.

So murdering sprees are okay because families will be reunited in heaven? You are actually trying to twist the murder and loss of children for a lifetime into something good?

Good grief! you're a drama queen too?

Do you know what the definition of murder is? It means to take life unlawfully. God does not take life unlawfully. It was satan who murdered Job's children, not God.

Thanks to Adam, people die every day from something or another. We are dying from the day we are born. Such is life in satan's world. Only God has the ability to restore life, which is what he has promised to do. (John 5:28, 29) No one has gone to heaven who wasn't invited. Most of humanity sleep in their graves awaiting the time of the resurrection. Job will then be reunited with all 20 of his children right here on a cleansed earth.

Death ends life. Time has ceased for them. (Eccl 9:5, 6, 10) There is no immortal soul.

You act like death is the worst thing that can happen to anyone....there are worse things than physical death, believe me. (and I don't believe in a fiery hell)

How far would you be willing to go to ensure God always comes out looking good? I would seriously like to know the answer to this because it seems limitless.

That depends on whose side of the story you wish to believe. Your choice.

The devil is never going to allow God to have good press. :ignore:

"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still." If you don't want to believe the good things about God, then there is little I or anyone else can say that will convince you otherwise.

 

[Blackdog22]

I would have thought that to be a no brainer BD22. God invented morality.
Since you have convinced yourself that God is immoral, by whose definition is he immoral? Yours?

There is no reason to think that morality is anything more than a creation of humans attributed to Gods throughout our lifetime. Actually, all the evidence points towards this. What do you have proving God created morality?

Puny humans can accuse the Creator of the universe of being immoral??? Now, that's actually funny.

Only if you can accuse him of being moral.

That is the point. You are free to judge God however you like.
Do you believe that you will change the outcome of his stated purpose by doing so?
It's already cast in concrete. We already know who the losers are.

What purpose? Who loses and why do you sound happy that their is a loser?

Good grief! you're a drama queen too?

I would expect more sympathy from someone following the teachings of a higher morality. Not sure what to make of this.

Do you know what the definition of murder is? It means to take life unlawfully. God does not take life unlawfully. It was satan who murdered Job's children, not God.

Hitler never murdered anyone. I suppose you think he is innocent. I would imagine if you witnessed a conversation like the one God and Satan had, but instead between 2 men your opinion would be that both men were wicked. Your ideas about God seem have blinded you morally.

Thanks to Adam, people die every day from something or another. We are dying from the day we are born

.

It was actually thanks to the curse God put on the earth as an overreaction to Adam and Eve eating some fruit. I would imagine if a parent decides to kill their child because they ate candy before dinner time you wouldn't be quite so oblivious to that evil? Once again it appears the ideas behind your God have blinded you morally.

You act like death is the worst thing that can happen to anyone....there are worse things than physical death, believe me. (and I don't believe in a fiery hell)

No, I simply act like human life is precious. Why don't you? What do you think I should make of someone who excuses the loss of life in such a casual manner?

The devil is never going to allow God to have good press. :ignore:

I suppose God has no power to do anything about that problem.

"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still." If you don't want to believe the good things about God, then there is little I or anyone else can say that will convince you otherwise.

I am still curious how you are judging his actions as good.

 

[Skwim]

Really? What did God have to prove to someone he could snuff out in a heartbeat?

Ya got me. But the fact remains, that's how it played out. Satan challenged god (incited, as Satan tells it) to prove Job was a truly devote man.

The issues went way deeper than that. The whole issue is about the use of free will.

Jeees, Are you really going to play the old "free will" card? This sucker seems to be thrown on the table every time a Christian can't extricate himself from a "god-couldn't-that!" problem. In any case, as a hard determinist free will means absolutely nothing to me. May as well say the whole issue is about the use of the Easter bunny.

Yes it was Moses, and he was also told about creation and Adam and Eve etc. which were all thousands of years before his time. If God did not want it written down then why would he have instructed Moses to do so?

From what I've read, the jury is still out as to the true authorship of the book.

No one would ever have known how man got here or how God created the universe if it wasn't for Genesis.

Again, there is hardly a consensus on the subject. You claim Biblical scripture as the truth because, for one thing, your investment in your faith will never let you consider anything else. Other religions present far different creation stories, all with just as much justification as yours. The only common denominator is that all are faith based. On the other hand, there is the evidence based explanation, one that cuts across cultures and religions: it's science. And, although it doesn't come with the certainty that religions must have so as to keep its flock happy, it's basis of fact and reason is recognized by everyone as an invaluable and indispensable tool of life, even to die-hard, evangelical, fundamentalist Christians.

There is so much more to the issues between God and the devil than a mere 'difference of opinion'.

Perhaps, but we're not talking about anything else, just this singular incident. So let's not run around the whole of the Bible citing irrelevancies as you've done in the paragraphs that follow. They don't impress, but come off as desperations. Stick to the issues and we might get somewhere. If you can't then the best I can say is, have a good day, because I don't feel like wading through your prose just to uncover a possible point.

"Impressing"??? Good grief! Who said satan was worthy of impressing?

Just my conclusion from trying to divine a rational for god's thumbs-up to Satan's mission. Satan challenged god. God responded by taking up the challenge to prove Satan wrong. And why else does one do such a thing: prove someone wrong? To impress them that you're right and they are wrong. Ain't all that difficult to fathom.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Can the two not be reconciled within a harmonious balance rather than one or the other being repressed?

To my knowledge there is no need or virtue in trying to do so.

The spiritual aspect is far, far more important and desireable such that the animal side really isn't needed, anyway.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Father Heathen]

To my knowledge there is no need or virtue in trying to do so.

The spiritual aspect is far, far more important and desireable such that the animal side really isn't needed, anyway.

Peace,

Bruce

If anything, denying our very nature causes "spiritual" imbalance, and vice versa. They serve as each other's counter-weights.

 

[Straw Dog]

The spiritual aspect is far, far more important and desireable such that the animal side really isn't needed, anyway.

The animal side is what desires the spiritual aspect.

 

[crossfire]

The animal side is what desires the spiritual aspect.

Depending upon how you define spirit, it just might go both ways. (Otherwise, how would taiji manifest from wuji?)