Is Satan actually the good guy?

[Twilight Hue]

I would have thought that to be a no brainer BD22. God invented morality.
Since you have convinced yourself that God is immoral, by whose definition is he immoral? Yours?

Puny humans can accuse the Creator of the universe of being immoral??? Now, that's actually funny.

Not really. During my time as a Christian I understood morality as it was taught biblicaly. To see a God do the opposite of what he teaches as morality is contradictory and divided. Did not see it as any brownie points for God in light of a creation that was privy to what was right and wrong through a directive.

Do you know what the definition of murder is? It means to take life unlawfully. God does not take life unlawfully. It was satan who murdered Job's children, not God.

Actually this can be interpreted as Satan in the role as a hit man with Gods blessing.

 

[Koldo]

I would have thought that to be a no brainer BD22. God invented morality.
Since you have convinced yourself that God is immoral, by whose definition is he immoral? Yours?

Puny humans can accuse the Creator of the universe of being immoral??? Now, that's actually funny.

Have you ever read about the Euthyphro dilemma ?

 

[JayJayDee]

There is no reason to think that morality is anything more than a creation of humans attributed to Gods throughout our lifetime. Actually, all the evidence points towards this. What do you have proving God created morality?

Have you observed animals in the wild when 'dinner' is served? Do you see morality demonstrated? Do you see males of any species standing confidently by at mating time, telling other males , "sorry mate, she is already taken"?

Animals fight for the right to be "top dog" and progenitor of the next generation. Some will fight to the death. here is no standard of right and wrong...only who is more powerful. The perpetuation of the species is guaranteed and the strongest get to reproduce. It is not a reasoned response...it is programmed into them.

Man can demonstrate animalistic behaviors at times, but that is not the way his Creator made him to be. Man is a higher creation than animals and he alone reflects the qualities of his Maker. He alone can display altruism, morality, justice and true love based on conscious and planned decisions. Animals operate purely by instinct.
The gulf between us and them is enormous.

Only if you can accuse him of being moral.

Is this man's definition of "morality" or God's? It loses a lot in the translation.

For a God with whom there is no injustice, it all boils down to knowing what God knows about everything. Do you believe that humans are capable of knowing ALL the factors in any human scenario? God does not judge on mere appearances...he sees what is in the heart, right down to what motivates our actions.
Accusing him of being immoral is a human outlook based on a need to reduce the Creator down to the level of mere humans. What humans lack is knowledge, they are not omniscient but they think they are. Man takes a few facts out of context and builds a case. It doesn't hold water.

What purpose?

Do you believe that the Creator had no purpose in putting material creatures on a material earth in a material universe? Look at the vastness of space and think BIG, then contemplate of all the creatures we share life with on this tiny speck of a planet. Some are bigger than us, some smaller than us and some we cannot even see with the naked eye. Under an electron microscope, we can see that they are incredibly designed.

Does anyone make amazing creations with no purpose?....no meaning for its existence? No one goes to all this trouble with no purpose in mind. When you know what it is...everything else makes sense.

Who loses and why do you sound happy that their is a loser?

There are only two sides to the issue of Universal Sovereignty...God's and satan's...we have to choose whose rulership we support.
There are just two roads that Jesus mentioned and all humankind are on one or the other. There is no fence between them to sit on. (Matt 7:13, 14)
There are only two categories of people who inhabit this planet....'sheep' and 'goats'. So you see there are only two choices because there are only two 'gods'. One is a phoney and the other is real. We choose whom we serve by the way we live the life we have been given. (John 3:36)

There is no happiness in the death of the wicked...only relief that we will never share this planet with them ever again. (Psalm 37:10, 11; Prov 2:21, 22; Ezek 18:23)

We are given all we need to make the right choice.

I would expect more sympathy from someone following the teachings of a higher morality. Not sure what to make of this.

Sympathy is appropriate when it is the right time to express it. God did not express sympathy for Adam and his wife however, because his justice was exercised in accord with his stated law.

He felt no sympathy for the lawless ones on Noah's day who had due warning about God's intentions and ignored it. Jesus used this as example of what is to come. (Matt 24:37-39) We can humbly and obediently put ourselves on the ark and be saved or we can ridicule the messenger and then perish because we stubbornly refused to listen. Again...we choose.

Hitler never murdered anyone. I suppose you think he is innocent.

Since Hitler actively ordered the execution of anyone who did not support his maniacal reign, that is a rather silly statement.

God did not order the execution of Job's children....satan did.

I would imagine if you witnessed a conversation like the one God and Satan had, but instead between 2 men your opinion would be that both men were wicked. Your ideas about God seem have blinded you morally.

Or your erroneous assumptions about God's morality are way off the mark.

God is not a human who answers to any of us. God's nation was not a democracy where the people got to tell the rulers what to do and if they didn't do what was expected of them, they would simply vote them out at the next election.

The nation of Israel was a Theocracy. RULE BY GOD. It had one ruler who made all the laws and expected his subjects to keep them....there could be reasons offered as to why a law was broken, but never excuses.

It was actually thanks to the curse God put on the earth as an overreaction to Adam and Eve eating some fruit. I would imagine if a parent decides to kill their child because they ate candy before dinner time you wouldn't be quite so oblivious to that evil? Once again it appears the ideas behind your God have blinded you morally.

That is putting a rather childish spin on things IMO. Where does a perfect fully grown man not have to take responsibility for his own actions? Haven't we been conned by a corrupt justice system into believing that we have rights before responsibilities? That is not how God sees it.

No, I simply act like human life is precious. Why don't you?

Because all human life is NOT "precious" in the sense that you mean it. If it were then God would not have decreed the an end of said life for those who unrepentantly broke his laws.

Human life is precious to God only if the person who has been granted that life appreciates the gift and uses it in accord with the Maker's written instructions. If it is abused and God's laws are flouted, then the gift will be forfeited. Who told you it was otherwise? Does God somehow owe us life? Does the clay get to whinge to the potter?

What do you think I should make of someone who excuses the loss of life in such a casual manner?

Someone who through deep study, appreciates God's justice at a much high level than you obviously do.

I suppose God has no power to do anything about that problem.

God has already stated very clearly what he intends to do about the situation that arose in Eden. Right then and there he implemented a plan of action to redeem Adam's children, who were born into this situation through no fault of their own. Having said that, there was still obligation on their part to obey the instructions he laid down in order for them to attain it. Obedience is all God has ever asked of his human family. No rebels will get to see the life he promises his loyal ones.

I am still curious how you are judging his actions as good.

Perhaps you need to alter your perceptions about God altogether. He is nothing like what you are describing. He will not run after you pleading for you to listen, nor will he force you to obey him. He will give you ample time to get to really know him...if you want to. But if you don't want to, then the apostle Paul has some advice for you. (Heb 10:26-31)

 

[JayJayDee]

Have you ever read about the Euthyphro dilemma ?

Yes.

For the benefit of readers.....

"The dilemma has had a major effect on the philosophical theism of the monotheistic religions, but in a modified form: "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?" Ever since Plato's original discussion, this question has presented a problem for some theists, though others have thought it a false dilemma, and it continues to be an object of theological and philosophical discussion today."

Euthyphro dilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't believe that it is a dilemma for one who knows God. Regardless of whether morality exists in God as a natural consequence of his being God or not...who is to know? Since God created everything, including morality, morality exists in us because he decreed that it was a beneficial attribute to give to humans, along with justice, wisdom and love. He did not choose to give these qualities to animals.

To me, philosophy is a bunch of smart people debating over useless arguments and never coming to any conclusions. It has never appealed to me. Circular arguments are just frustrating.

 

[JayJayDee]

Not really. During my time as a Christian I understood morality as it was taught biblicaly. To see a God do the opposite of what he teaches as morality is contradictory and divided. Did not see it as any brownie points for God in light of a creation that was privy to what was right and wrong through a directive.

What if you have misunderstood the gravity of the whole issue?

Actually this can be interpreted as Satan in the role as a hit man with Gods blessing.

On the surface of it it could be seen like that. But if you dig deeper you come up with a different scenario altogether.

I have explained it in some detail already, so it is pointless going over it again.

If you cannot see the issues raised by satan with regard to Job and deem that God was responsible for just letting bad things happen to Job for the fun of it, then that is your prerogative. Believe whatever you like. God lets you do that so I should too.

 

[McBell]

Human life is precious to God only if the person who has been granted that life appreciates the gift and uses it in accord with the Maker's written instructions. If it is abused and God's laws are flouted, then the gift will be forfeited. Who told you it was otherwise? Does God somehow owe us life? Does the clay get to whinge to the potter?

the favoritism of god as revealed by the elitist nature of one his followers...

 

[Koldo]

Yes.

For the benefit of readers.....

"The dilemma has had a major effect on the philosophical theism of the monotheistic religions, but in a modified form: "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?" Ever since Plato's original discussion, this question has presented a problem for some theists, though others have thought it a false dilemma, and it continues to be an object of theological and philosophical discussion today."

Euthyphro dilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't believe that it is a dilemma for one who knows God. Regardless of whether morality exists in God as a natural consequence of his being God or not...who is to know? Since God created everything, including morality, morality exists in us because he decreed that it was a beneficial attribute to give to humans, along with justice, wisdom and love. He did not choose to give these qualities to animals.

To me, philosophy is a bunch of smart people debating over useless arguments and never coming to any conclusions. It has never appealed to me. Circular arguments are just frustrating.

If God has sovereignty over morality then, as it is written in the wikipedia and i quote:

• No reasons for morality: If there is no moral standard other than God's will, then God's commands are arbitrary (i.e., based on pure whimsy or caprice). This would mean that morality is ultimately not based on reasons: "if theological voluntarism is true, then God's commands/intentions must be arbitrary; [but] it cannot be that morality could wholly depend on something arbitrary... [for] when we say that some moral state of affairs obtains, we take it that there is a reason for that moral state of affairs obtaining rather than another."[37] And as Michael J. Murray and Michael Rea put it, this would also "cas[t] doubt on the notion that morality is genuinely objective."[38] An additional problem is that it is difficult to explain how true moral actions can exist, if one only acts out of fear for God, or in an attempt to be rewarded by him.[39]

• No reasons for God: This arbitrariness would also jeopardize God's status as a wise and rational being, one who always acts on good reasons only. As Leibniz writes: "Where will be his justice and his wisdom if he has only a certain despotic power, if arbitrary will takes the place of reasonableness, and if in accord with the definition of tyrants, justice consists in that which is pleasing to the most powerful? Besides it seems that every act of willing supposes some reason for the willing and this reason, of course, must precede the act."[40]

• Anything goes:[41] This arbitrariness would also mean that anything could become good, and anything could become bad, merely upon God's command. Thus if God commanded us "to gratuitously inflict pain on each other"[42] or to engage in "cruelty for its own sake"[43] or to hold an "annual sacrifice of randomly selected ten-year-olds in a particularly gruesome ritual that involves excruciating and prolonged suffering for its victims",[44] then we would be morally obligated to do so. As 17th-century philosopher Ralph Cudworth put it: "nothing can be imagined so grossly wicked, or so foully unjust or dishonest, but if it were supposed to be commanded by this omnipotent Deity, must needs upon that hypothesis forthwith become holy, just, and righteous."[45]

• Moral contingency: If morality depends on the perfectly free will of God, morality would lose its necessity: "If nothing prevents God from loving things that are different from what God actually loves, then goodness can change from world to world or time to time. This is obviously objectionable to those who believe that claims about morality are, if true, necessarily true."[46] In other words, no action has its moral status necessarily: any right action could have easily been wrong, if God had so decided, and an action which is right today could easily become wrong tomorrow, if God so decides. Indeed, some have argued that divine command theory is incompatible with ordinary conceptions of moral supervenience.[47]

• Why do God's commands obligate?: Mere commands do not create obligations unless the commander has some commanding authority. But this commanding authority cannot itself be based on those very commands (i.e., a command to obey one's own commands), otherwise a vicious circle results. So, in order for God's commands to obligate us, he must derive commanding authority from some source other than his own will. As Cudworth put it: "For it was never heard of, that any one founded all his authority of commanding others, and others (sic) obligation or duty to obey his commands, in a law of his own making, that men should be required, obliged, or bound to obey him. Wherefore since the thing willed in all laws is not that men should be bound or obliged to obey; this thing cannot be the product of the meer (sic) will of the commander, but it must proceed from something else; namely, the right or authority of the commander".[48] To avoid the circle, one might say our obligation comes from gratitude to God for creating us. But this presupposes some sort of independent moral standard obligating us to be grateful to our benefactors. As 18th-century philosopher Francis Hutcheson writes: "Is the Reason exciting to concur with the Deity this, 'The Deity is our Benefactor?' Then what Reason excites to concur with Benefactors?"[49] Or finally, one might resort to Hobbes's view: "The right of nature whereby God reigneth over men, and punisheth those that break his laws, is to be derived, not from his creating them (as if he required obedience, as of gratitude for his benefits), but from his irresistible power."[50] In other words, might makes right.

• God's goodness: If all goodness is a matter of God's will, then what shall become of God's goodness? Thus William P. Alston writes, "since the standards of moral goodness are set by divine commands, to say that God is morally good is just to say that he obeys his own commands... that God practises what he preaches, whatever that might be",[51] and Hutcheson deems such a view "an insignificant Tautology, amounting to no more than this, 'That God wills what he wills.'"[52] Alternatively, as Leibniz puts it, divine command theorists "deprive God of the designation good: for what cause could one have to praise him for what he does, if in doing something quite different he would have done equally well?"[53] A related point is raised by C. S. Lewis: "if good is to be defined as what God commands, then the goodness of God Himself is emptied of meaning and the commands of an omnipotent fiend would have the same claim on us as those of the 'righteous Lord.'"[54] Or again Leibniz: "this opinion would hardly distinguish God from the devil."[55] That is, since divine command theory trivializes God's goodness, it is incapable of explaining the difference between God and an all-powerful demon.

 

[JayJayDee]

the favoritism of god as revealed by the elitist nature of one his followers...

You seem to think that the Creator owes you life. Where is it written that a person can bad mouth his Maker and expect to remain living? What kind of a 'mamby pamby' sop do you take him for?

God for all intents and purposes is a dictator. You will have to get over the image of human dictators to see that God is not malevolent in his exercise of absolute power; in fact he seems to be the only being in existence who cannot corrupted by it. He is the best benefactor and champion that his family can have. All his laws operate for the benefit of the entire group, not just individuals who want their own way. He rewards loyalty and penalizes rebellion. No rebel in a house creates a good environment for the rest. Rebellion has a way of corrupting others, as we have seen demonstrated both in heaven and on earth. You can only eliminate rebellion by rehabilitating the rebel, or if he is irreformable, by kicking him out of the house. I have no issue with that. The rebel takes responsibility for his own actions in full knowledge of the rules and consequences. How is that not fair?

If you don't want what God is offering on HIS terms, then you will forfeit your life as unworthy of retaining it. That is the rule that the Creator stipulates. You cannot dictate your own terms and expect him to employ human sentiment and fall for the 'puppy dog eyes' and the "I promise I'll be good" routine if it isn't genuine. He knows when its real; that is why there is never any injustice on his part.

There is nothing elitist about loving God and everything that he does, if you truly know him. It is so easy to fall for the human image of the Creator as the devil wants you to see him. You can do that if you wish. Choices again.

 

[JayJayDee]

If God has sovereignty over morality then, as it is written in the wikipedia and i quote:

Circular philosophical nonsense. Believe it if you wish.

There is one facet of human reasoning that the godless cannot explain.....the faculty of human conscience. This is our moral compass.

It is interesting that penalties for breaking God's laws can only be implemented if it can be proven that you have broken them. Thieves and murderers were convicted on the testimony of witnesses.
The law that required Israel to "love" God with their whole heart, soul and mind was hardly one that humans could enforce. Only God knows when a person truly loves him and when they are only going through the motions. He hates meaningless performance of mere empty ritual or prayer.

The apostle Paul gave us some insight as to how God judges people, whether they have knowledge of him or not....

"...there is no partiality with God. For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare." (Rom 2:11-16)

This faculty of conscience is God given. It is the basis upon which all are judged, even in the "secret things" that nobody else knows about us. We have an inbuilt sense of right and wrong programmed into us, so when we transgress that law that is written in our hearts, it is because we have already willfully dismissed it. That, in itself is an act of rebellion and disobedience.

At the Nuremberg trials where Nazi war criminals were held to account over their atrocities, they claimed that they would have been shot if they disobeyed orders. This was not held to be an excuse for their violation of international law. They were found guilty on the grounds that they violated their own conscience.

The conscience will only work when it is trained to distinguish the difference between right and wrong, through use. If the conscience is ignored too many times, then it will be rendered insensitive, like the flesh that has been branded with a hot iron, it will no longer be able to feel a prodding.

"However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons,  by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron" (1 Tim 4:1, 2)

This is a perfect description of the world we live in. Consciences are so insensitive that nothing is "wrong" anymore. :ignore: The human interpretation of "wrong" is no longer God's interpretation. We all have to choose the standard we wish to follow.
God doesn't change his standards, but humans are up and down like yo yos.

 

[McBell]

You seem to think that the Creator owes you life. Where is it written that a person can bad mouth his Maker and expect to remain living? What kind of a 'mamby pamby' sop do you take him for?

You seem to think that all your bold empty claims about your god are somehow impressive.
The problem is that they are nothing more than bold empty claims.

Care to substantiate them?
You can start with the very existence of this alleged creator...

God for all intents and purposes is a dictator. You will have to get over the image of human dictators to see that God is not malevolent in his exercise of absolute power; in fact he seems to be the only being in existence who cannot corrupted by it. He is the best benefactor and champion that his family can have. All his laws operate for the benefit of the entire group, not just individuals who want their own way. He rewards loyalty and penalizes rebellion. No rebel in a house creates a good environment for the rest. Rebellion has a way of corrupting others, as we have seen demonstrated both in heaven and on earth. You can only eliminate rebellion by rehabilitating the rebel, or if he is irreformable, by kicking him out of the house. I have no issue with that. The rebel takes responsibility for his own actions in full knowledge of the rules and consequences. How is that not fair?

If you don't want what God is offering on HIS terms, then you will forfeit your life as unworthy of retaining it. That is the rule that the Creator stipulates. You cannot dictate your own terms and expect him to employ human sentiment and fall for the 'puppy dog eyes' and the "I promise I'll be good" routine if it isn't genuine. He knows when its real; that is why there is never any injustice on his part.

There is nothing elitist about loving God and everything that he does, if you truly know him. It is so easy to fall for the human image of the Creator as the devil wants you to see him. You can do that if you wish. Choices again.

more bold empty claims...

Seems that bold empty unsubstantiated claims is all you have.

 

[McBell]

Circular philosophical nonsense. Believe it if you wish.

There is one facet of human reasoning that the godless cannot explain.....the faculty of human conscience. This is our moral compass.

It is interesting that penalties for breaking God's laws can only be implemented if it can be proven that you have broken them. Thieves and murderers were convicted on the testimony of witnesses.
The law that required Israel to "love" God with their whole heart, soul and mind was hardly one that humans could enforce. Only God knows when a person truly loves him and when they are only going through the motions. He hates meaningless performance of mere empty ritual or prayer.

The apostle Paul gave us some insight as to how God judges people, whether they have knowledge of him or not....

"...there is no partiality with God. For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare." (Rom 2:11-16)

This faculty of conscience is God given. It is the basis upon which all are judged, even in the "secret things" that nobody else knows about us. We have an inbuilt sense of right and wrong programmed into us, so when we transgress that law that is written in our hearts, it is because we have already willfully dismissed it. That, in itself is an act of rebellion and disobedience.

At the Nuremberg trials where Nazi war criminals were held to account over their atrocities, they claimed that they would have been shot if they disobeyed orders. This was not held to be an excuse for their violation of international law. They were found guilty on the grounds that they violated their own conscience.

The conscience will only work when it is trained to distinguish the difference between right and wrong, through use. If the conscience is ignored too many times, then it will be rendered insensitive, like the flesh that has been branded with a hot iron, it will no longer be able to feel a prodding.

"However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons,  by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron" (1 Tim 4:1, 2)

This is a perfect description of the world we live in. Consciences are so insensitive that nothing is "wrong" anymore. :ignore: The human interpretation of "wrong" is no longer God's interpretation. We all have to choose the standard we wish to follow.
God doesn't change his standards, but humans are up and down like yo yos.

gotta love an argument from incredulity backed by a whole bunch of empty claims.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You seem to think that the Creator owes you life. Where is it written that a person can bad mouth his Maker and expect to remain living? What kind of a 'mamby pamby' sop do you take him for?

God for all intents and purposes is a dictator. You will have to get over the image of human dictators to see that God is not malevolent in his exercise of absolute power; in fact he seems to be the only being in existence who cannot corrupted by it. He is the best benefactor and champion that his family can have. All his laws operate for the benefit of the entire group, not just individuals who want their own way. He rewards loyalty and penalizes rebellion. No rebel in a house creates a good environment for the rest. Rebellion has a way of corrupting others, as we have seen demonstrated both in heaven and on earth. You can only eliminate rebellion by rehabilitating the rebel, or if he is irreformable, by kicking him out of the house. I have no issue with that. The rebel takes responsibility for his own actions in full knowledge of the rules and consequences. How is that not fair?

If you don't want what God is offering on HIS terms, then you will forfeit your life as unworthy of retaining it. That is the rule that the Creator stipulates. You cannot dictate your own terms and expect him to employ human sentiment and fall for the 'puppy dog eyes' and the "I promise I'll be good" routine if it isn't genuine. He knows when its real; that is why there is never any injustice on his part.

There is nothing elitist about loving God and everything that he does, if you truly know him. It is so easy to fall for the human image of the Creator as the devil wants you to see him. You can do that if you wish. Choices again.

subservient under threat dosent seem like a very good way live out existence. Satan was never recorded as being so extreme and controlling. A good example of why Satan can be viewed as a good character seeking liberation.

 

[Twilight Hue]

gotta love an argument from incredulity backed by a whole bunch of empty claims.

True. But theres still the narrative. The meat and potatos of why this is written in the manner that it is.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

But Satan's actions were with god's "blessing." God too wanted to see what Job would do (so much from being omnicient).

Would you prefer it if God judged people for things they hadn't even done yet but were supposedly destined to do in the future?

 

[JayJayDee]

gotta love an argument from incredulity backed by a whole bunch of empty claims.

At least I have claims....what about you Mestemia? Or are you only capable of criticism without contributing anything that might be shown to be in error? Can you not stand up to the same scrutiny that you give others?

Do you actually have something to add? Give us something that we can criticize in return. Or are you happy to just fire shots from sidelines?

What is with snipers? I don't get it.

 

[JayJayDee]

subservient under threat dosent seem like a very good way live out existence. Satan was never recorded as being so extreme and controlling. A good example of why Satan can be viewed as a good character seeking liberation.

O please....."subservient under threat "?? Threat of what?

We live 'subservient under threat' from our own national laws. The only people who have to fear them are the law breakers! Do you see what you are saying? If you regard this as "extreme", then I think you need a little more mental processing on this subject. :help:

Satan does not give the appearance of 'controlling'...he makes it all seem like your own idea. He's a deceiver, remember? He's a con artist with thousands of years of experiences on people smarter than us. You honestly think you are a match for him?

"These are fountains without water, and mists driven by a violent storm, and for them the blackness of darkness has been reserved. For they utter swelling expressions of no profit, and by the desires of the flesh and by loose habits they entice those who are just escaping from people who conduct themselves in error. While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are existing as slaves of corruption. For whoever is overcome by another is enslaved by this one." (2 Pet 2:17-19)

That makes the world 'slaves' of the one making empty promises of freedom. If it's freedom they want...it's freedom they have to make all the choices they like.
Your choices tell God who you really are.

But Peter went on to say.....
"Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. The saying of the true proverb has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:20-22)

If one knows what God's requirements for life are, and yet chooses an opposite course, who can they blame for the consequences? They are clearly stated. Humans do not get to dictate the terms of their existence to their Maker. Do you understand this?

 

[Skwim]

But Satan's actions were with god's "blessing." God too wanted to see what Job would do (so much from being omniscient).

Would you prefer it if God judged people for things they hadn't even done yet but were supposedly destined to do in the future?

Not at all sure of what you're addressing in my remark, but that aside, If god exists as Christians claim (as an omniscient being), then it wouldn't be a "supposedly" situation, but one of knowledge. God would already know what people will actually do in the future. Therefore, I can't see where judging people now or in the future makes any difference.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Not at all sure of what you're addressing in my remark, but that aside, If god exists as Christians claim (as an omniscient being), then it wouldn't be a "supposedly" situation, but one of knowledge. God would already know what people will actually do in the future. Therefore, I can't see where judging people now or in the future makes any difference.

You seem to be questioning why God, if he is omnicient, would allow someone to be tortured in a test of faith when he already knows what the outcome will be. The only other alternative is that God judges people based on his foreknowledge of the future. Would people be complain less about the Christian God's methods if he punished people for things they hadn't even done yet?

 

[Twilight Hue]

O please....."subservient under threat "?? Threat of what?

We live 'subservient under threat' from our own national laws. The only people who have to fear them are the law breakers! Do you see what you are saying? If you regard this as "extreme", then I think you need a little more mental processing on this subject. :help:

Satan does not give the appearance of 'controlling'...he makes it all seem like your own idea. He's a deceiver, remember? He's a con artist with thousands of years of experiences on people smarter than us. You honestly think you are a match for him?

"These are fountains without water, and mists driven by a violent storm, and for them the blackness of darkness has been reserved. For they utter swelling expressions of no profit, and by the desires of the flesh and by loose habits they entice those who are just escaping from people who conduct themselves in error. While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are existing as slaves of corruption. For whoever is overcome by another is enslaved by this one." (2 Pet 2:17-19)

That makes the world 'slaves' of the one making empty promises of freedom. If it's freedom they want...it's freedom they have to make all the choices they like.
Your choices tell God who you really are.

But Peter went on to say.....
"Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. The saying of the true proverb has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:20-22)

If one knows what God's requirements for life are, and yet chooses an opposite course, who can they blame for the consequences? They are clearly stated. Humans do not get to dictate the terms of their existence to their Maker. Do you understand this?

Actually I believe none of this.

I just wondered via afterthought as to how Satan became such a bad guy when so little is mentioned and recorded Biblicaly . Satan comes across as quite placid dealing with such a violent and demanding God.

Seems how its written makes on wonder if God is the one doing the deceiving. He dosent come across as any type of being a person would be comfortable with.

 

[JayJayDee]

Actually I believe none of this.

That is entirely your prerogative. But you can't ever say you didn't know because nobody told you....can you?

I just wondered via afterthought as to how Satan became such a bad guy when so little is mentioned and recorded Biblicaly . Satan comes across as quite placid dealing with such a violent and demanding God.

What makes you think there is little mention of him? What is mentioned speaks volumes. We can trace his activities from Genesis to Revelation.

What happened to Job was satan's idea...how does that make him the placid one?

Can the Creator not dictate the terms of life, since he is the one who is responsible for granting it? Do we get to dictate to him what we believe his behavior should be? Seriously?

It appears to me that if you think he is a 'violent and demanding God', then you are hardly walking in a way to avoid his judgments. You obviously don't believe he will do what he says he will. Do you think he needs your permission?

Seems how its written makes on wonder if God is the one doing the deceiving. He dosent come across as any type of being a person would be comfortable with.

Speak for yourself. I am very comfortable with his laws and his actions because his justice is always perfect. It's very easy to pull a few facts out of the Bible to make a case, but that is not the whole story. Thankfully he will not judge us the way you judge him.

You just do not know him. (John 17:3)