Is Satan actually the good guy?

[JayJayDee]

If god exists as Christians claim (as an omniscient being), then it wouldn't be a "supposedly" situation, but one of knowledge. God would already know what people will actually do in the future. Therefore, I can't see where judging people now or in the future makes any difference.

I believe that you have a rather distorted view of God's omniscience. Just because he 'can' know everything doesn't mean he chooses to know everything.

If you had a key that unlocked every lock on earth, would you have to unlock every lock, just because you could?

God wants certain things to be OUR choice, that is why we get to make them. Even whether we live or die is basically our decision when the judgment comes. How we live, what we believe, how we respect others and how we treat God's worship (which is an exclusively human activity) all goes into the 'file' that God keeps on everyone.

He has a "book of life" too....but you have to merit your name's entry into that.

If you don't believe that there is going to be an accounting that God has with his human family, that will take place soon, then I don't think anyone will convince you otherwise. God has said that he will withdraw life from those who won't (not can't) obey him.

If ignorance is bliss, then eat drink and be merry...... have a great life.

 

[BruceDLimber]

The animal side is what desires the spiritual aspect.

Frequently not the case, I'm afraid.

Though if you change "desires" to "needs," I'll agree.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Revoltingest]

I believe that you have a rather distorted view of God's omniscience. Just because he 'can' know everything doesn't mean he chooses to know everything.
If you had a key that unlocked every lock on earth, would you have to unlock every lock, just because you could?

God's choosing not to know doesn't change anything relative to knowing.

Suppose it's possible for God to know someone's choice in advance.
God is always right (& so very smug about it).
But suppose God chooses to not know the choice.
There is still this hidden choice which is knowable to him.
This choice is something already determined, ie, it has a single state, which God may at any time decide to learn.
Suppose a human made a choice which conflicted with the predetermined one.
This means that God would've been wrong if he had chosen to learn the choice in advance.
Can't have that!

Omniscience & free will look incompatible.

 

[Koldo]

Circular philosophical nonsense. Believe it if you wish.

If you are able to point the flaw on each one of those points that turns them into circular reasoning, then be my guest.

Calling something a fallacy doesn't make it so.

 

[Straw Dog]

Frequently not the case, I'm afraid.

Though if you change "desires" to "needs," I'll agree.

Don't you desire what you need?

 

[Skwim]

I believe that you have a rather distorted view of God's omniscience. Just because he 'can' know everything doesn't mean he chooses to know everything.

Agreed; however, I was replying to Peacemaker's question,

"Would you prefer it if God judged people for things they hadn't even done yet but were supposedly destined to do in the future?"
​

which wasn't all that clear. So I decided to address the question of god's ability to know the future, and if god were to judge a future act, either now or in the future, it would be with knowledge of that act.



EDITED TO ADD:

As far as god not choosing to know everything.

When I say I have knowledge of how a car works it doesn't mean that at that very moment, I'm aware of all the details I could relate if asked to. Those would reside somewhere in my memory, and would have to be accessed at the appropriate moment in my explanation. Now I'm supposing that god's memory would work in the same fashion; there aren't a Google-quadrillion pieces of information swirling about in his head every moment, but just a few, as with ourselves. Therefore, he too would access those pieces of information as they became necessary. NOW! Would it be any different for god to access information he already had than to access future information? To me, it seems both acts would be equally available. So, to imply that he doesn't choose to know everything in the future is no different than saying he doesn't choose to access everything in his memory at any one moment, which is just how our memory works. For us, we access only one piece of information at a time in our memory. For god, he only accesses only one piece of information at a time in his memory OR from the past, present, or future. So his his knowledge base is simply far larger than ours, but its mechanics would seem to be the same: dealing with the individual pieces when needed. Alternatively, he would be aware of all things at all times, which would have to include all future events.

 

[billthecat]

As far as not choosing to know everything. I'm curious as to how that would work with god.

This is the first thing JayJayDee has said that I fundamentally don't agree with. I don't think God "chooses" to not know things. I don't think He chooses... however He would do that... to "not know" certain things so He can be surprised...

Now I'm supposing that god's memory would work in the same fashion;

I don't believe that is an accurate supposition. I don't know why people think that God "works" the same way we do. Beliefs like that are underpinned with the idea that we can in ANY way understand God. We cannot.

That we are created in God's image does not mean that we possess every characteristic of God, and it does not mean that we operate essentially the same as God, and it does not mean that God operates essentially the same way we do. Being created in God's image does not mean we are the same as God except that He's "better" at it than we are, or He makes fewer mistakes.

Consider the difference between an adult human being and a newborn. The newborn is certainly "in the image of" the adult. But in terms of knowledge, cognitive ability, understanding the way things work and don't work, cause/effect, consequences, any intellectual concept of fairness or justice - there is no comparison. The inability of human beings to even begin to grasp God is to an infinitely greater magnitude than the human newborn/adult analogy.

It is a mistake that many people make - including many people who consider themselves Christians.

Alternatively, he would be aware of all things at all times, which would have to include all future events.

Your alternative is the way God is. The bible is very clear. There are no unknowns to God, none. He is unbound by time so for God there is no past, present or future. The concept of time is as all things created by God for His purposes.

I agree with JayJayDee that the purpose of what happened to Job goes way beyond what Job thought of it. A large part of the story of Job is about his interactions with his friends. The entire story is about Faith and how to Love God and trust Him and lean into Him at ALL times, regardless of what is happening around us and to us. It also illustrates that Satan is subordinate to God and that Satan exists at all and is allowed to do ANYTHING is all for God's purposes.

 

[Skwim]

I don't believe that is an accurate supposition. I don't know why people think that God "works" the same way we do. Beliefs like that are underpinned with the idea that we can in ANY way understand God. We cannot.

Yet you have no problem claiming you understand that,

" There are no unknowns to God, none. He is unbound by time so for God there is no past, present or future. The concept of time is as all things created by God for His purposes."
​

That we are created in God's image does not mean that we possess every characteristic of God, and it does not mean that we operate essentially the same as God, and it does not mean that God operates essentially the same way we do. Being created in God's image does not mean we are the same as God except that He's "better" at it than we are, or He makes fewer mistakes.

Well, from what I've read, the Christian god does make fewer mistakes. But maybe the Bible was put together to down play them all.

I agree with JayJayDee that the purpose of what happened to Job goes way beyond what Job thought of it. A large part of the story of Job is about his interactions with his friends. The entire story is about Faith and how to Love God and trust Him and lean into Him at ALL times, regardless of what is happening around us and to us.

Are you then saying that the objective of the Job incidents were to teach us a lesson? That god put Job through all his sufferings just so the story might appear in the Bible? He couldn't simply declare how Christians were to love and trust him, and lean into him at all times, regardless of what is happening around us and to us? That wouldn't work? Seems to me that the story tells people that if they keep their faith in god through the tough times they will be rewarded twice-fold, but as we all know, this is hardly the norm. More often people who suffer and keep their faith in god end up no better, or even worse, than before. I haven't heard of any Christian---and I do know of quite a few devote ones---actually going through such times and end up being twice better off.

It also illustrates that Satan is subordinate to God and that Satan exists at all and is allowed to do ANYTHING is all for God's purposes.

I thought that Satan's existence and his subordinate relationship to god had already long been established.

 

[Skwim]

Double post

 

[JayJayDee]

God's choosing not to know doesn't change anything relative to knowing.

Suppose it's possible for God to know someone's choice in advance.
God is always right (& so very smug about it).

Smug? Who has a better right to be smug when he encounters insects who all think they're geniuses?

Isaiah put man's existence in relation to his Creator into perspective when he wrote, "Do you people not know? Do you not hear? Has it not been told to you from the outset? Have you not applied understanding from the foundations of the earth? There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell, the One who is reducing high officials to nothing, who has made the very judges of the earth as a mere unreality" (Isa 40:21-23)

How many grasshoppers are here telling God he's done it all wrong? Seriously!

But suppose God chooses to not know the choice.
There is still this hidden choice which is knowable to him.

You've missed the point of God giving us the right of choice. It is WE who demonstrate by our actions what is in our hearts. We all have good intentions most of the time, but unless the good intentions translate into actions, what good are they really? It's not enough to talk the talk unless we are determined to walk the walk.

The devil says we can't love God that much, but God knows we can....Job proved it. If we bail, it is our own doing.

This choice is something already determined, ie, it has a single state, which God may at any time decide to learn.

Sure, he can know it....but do we? If we were judged on what God said we would do or not do, because he foreknew it, wouldn't we do what we have always done? Wouldn't we say "that's not fair, you didn't give me a chance to prove it"! Aren't we always the innocent ones in our own view? We can all move mountains in our own estimations, but when put to the test, how many will be left standing?

By our actions, not just our protestations, we have proved it to ourselves that God's judgment of us is correct....we blew it! The proof is right there in our own conduct.
Case closed your Honor.

Suppose a human made a choice which conflicted with the predetermined one.
This means that God would've been wrong if he had chosen to learn the choice in advance.
Can't have that!

That is not possible. Omniscience means that God can see into the future and the deed is as good as done....to him, but not to us. This is why God can prophesy accurately....it is history written in advance by a God to whom time means nothing.

He says he will not bring the current system to a conclusion until he has furnished due warning to "the entire inhabited earth" (Matt 24:14) Does that mean that he will sound a trumpet with fireworks and miracles so people will fall to their knees and obey him? NO! It will be the same scenario as when Noah walked the earth. People were given warning about what was going to happen, but it came from someone who was not like everyone else. He was different....very different, and he was doing something in preparation that made him look like the world's biggest nutter.

The people felt "smug" about disbelieving his warning....until the water began to swirl around their feet. It kept rising and how they must have wished that they had taken notice of him. That is the danger of judging something or someone in the court of public opinion. That same court tried and executed the son of God. It is not trustworthy.

That is the beauty of how God conducts his case....he allows everyone to be caught in the act of being themselves. He gives all humans the same instruction and allows their hearts to respond naturally. People weed themselves out of his purpose....he does not remove them until they are "dead" to him.

Do you understand this?

Omniscience & free will look incompatible.

Not a chance. :no:

 

[billthecat]

Yet you have no problem claiming you understand that,

" There are no unknowns to God, none. He is unbound by time so for God there is no past, present or future. The concept of time is as all things created by God for His purposes."​

I didn't say I understand it. I believe it.

Well, from what I've read, the Christian god does make fewer mistakes. But maybe the Bible was put together to down play them all.

Doubtless a matter of what is meant by "fewer". Zero is pretty few.

"...the bible was put together to down play them all." I don't know what that means.

Are you then saying that the objective of the Job incidents were to teach us a lesson?

If I were to say I know the objective of the Job incidents that would be purporting to know God's purposes.

Seems to me that the story tells people that if they keep their faith in god through the tough times they will be rewarded twice-fold, but as we all know, this is hardly the norm. More often people who suffer and keep their faith in god end up no better, or even worse, than before. I haven't heard of any Christian---and I do know of quite a few devote ones---actually going through such times and end up being twice better off.

That presupposes that you, I or anyone has the ability to discern what "reward" or "better off" mean from God's perspective. The bible never says that what God did for Job after Job's "incidents" is what God will do for me. If my house is blown away in the next tornado I'm not going to then expect to receive two houses because that's the way God handled it with Job.

God also doesn't promise that He'll satisfy my narcissistic idea of "fair".

I thought that Satan's existence and his subordinate relationship to god had already long been established.

I think your thought is right. The longest long been.

 

[Breathe]

After all he is the arch nemesis here ......or perhaps not and was just givin a bum rap?

Let the debate begin.....

Honestly, I don't think Satan is a bad guy. Just an angel with a crappy but important job. I don't imagine that he'd be an adversary of God, nor going to burn in Hell for all eternity at the end of times, etc. I think, if Satan were to exist and has human-like emotions, that he would rejoice when we overcome the trials we are given.

So he'd be like that mean-looking gym coach who pushed you to your limit but was always happy when you did well. Well, that trope anyway. (My gym coaches were a drunk who could barely stand, usually leaning against a wall to stay upright, and had a thing for trying to enter the girl's changing room, and the other was "having it away" with one of the female gym teachers. )

I imagine he'd be "bad" in the sense that nobody likes to be tempted because we don't want to fail. Otherwise, I imagine Satan would simply be our "lower" nature; not necessarily a bad thing but if over-indulged, not helpful for spiritual growth.

 

[Skwim]

I didn't say I understand it. I believe it.

I was talking about what you wrote; You do understand what you wrote, do you not? It was a claim about god. Not that you understand how it works, but that it is.

Doubtless a matter of what is meant by "fewer". Zero is pretty few.

Not the way he tells it. In Exodus 32:14 we see "And the Lord repented of the evil which he said he would do unto his people.” One doesn't repent something they did correctly. They repent what they did wrong. And doing something wrong = mistake.

Same thing with Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." God made a couple of mistakes which he repented. But hey, nobody's perfect!

If I were to say I know the objective of the Job incidents that would be purporting to know God's purposes.

Yet you say, "the purpose of what happened to Job goes way beyond what Job thought of it." So although you don't know what god's purpose is you DO know that it "goes way beyond what Job thought of it." In order to make such a claim one would have to know both what the purpose was and what Job thought of it. Yet you say you don't---or at least that's how I read reply.

That presupposes that you, I or anyone has the ability to discern what "reward" or "better off" mean from God's perspective. The bible never says that what God did for Job after Job's "incidents" is what God will do for me.

I take it then that no one should expect to have his fortunes doubled after suffering and believing in god. Therefore the point of the story was not to send that message. Good. So what was the point of it? As I've already said, god could have easily declared how Christians were to love and trust him, and lean into him at all times, regardless of what is happening around us and to us, and saved poor Job all that suffering.

I think your thought is right. The longest long been.

So, to say "It also illustrates that Satan is subordinate to God and that Satan exists at all and is allowed to do ANYTHING is all for God's purposes." is simply a redundant illustration. Gotcha

 

[Revoltingest]

Smug? Who has a better right to be smug when he encounters insects who all think they're geniuses?

Who you call'n an insect, bub?
This really grinds my thorax!

You've missed the point of God giving us the right of choice.

Miss it? No, it's the part I'm specifically addressing.

It is WE who demonstrate by our actions what is in our hearts. We all have good intentions most of the time, but unless the good intentions translate into actions, what good are they really? It's not enough to talk the talk unless we are determined to walk the walk.
The devil says we can't love God that much, but God knows we can....Job proved it. If we bail, it is our own doing.
Sure, he can know it....but do we? If we were judged on what God said we would do or not do, because he foreknew it, wouldn't we do what we have always done? Wouldn't we say "that's not fair, you didn't give me a chance to prove it"! Aren't we always the innocent ones in our own view? We can all move mountains in our own estimations, but when put to the test, how many will be left standing?
By our actions, not just our protestations, we have proved it to ourselves that God's judgment of us is correct....we blew it! The proof is right there in our own conduct.
Case closed your Honor.
That is not possible. Omniscience means that God can see into the future and the deed is as good as done....to him, but not to us. This is why God can prophesy accurately....it is history written in advance by a God to whom time means nothing.
He says he will not bring the current system to a conclusion until he has furnished due warning to "the entire inhabited earth" (Matt 24:14) Does that mean that he will sound a trumpet with fireworks and miracles so people will fall to their knees and obey him? NO! It will be the same scenario as when Noah walked the earth. People were given warning about what was going to happen, but it came from someone who was not like everyone else. He was different....very different, and he was doing something in preparation that made him look like the world's biggest nutter.
The people felt "smug" about disbelieving his warning....until the water began to swirl around their feet. It kept rising and how they must have wished that they had taken notice of him. That is the danger of judging something or someone in the court of public opinion. That same court tried and executed the son of God. It is not trustworthy.
That is the beauty of how God conducts his case....he allows everyone to be caught in the act of being themselves. He gives all humans the same instruction and allows their hearts to respond naturally. People weed themselves out of his purpose....he does not remove them until they are "dead" to him.
Do you understand this?
Not a chance. :no:

All them words, & you haven't yet addressed the argument I posed about omniscience being incompatible with
free will. To sum it up, you cannot make any choice but the one God could've foreseen if he'd chosen to learn it.

 

[JayJayDee]

Who you call'n an insect, bub?
This really grinds my thorax!

. LOL Sorry, I was making a general statement about humanity. I doubt that a humble grasshopper would adequately represent the 'revoltingest' insect on the planet.
Feel free to name your own insect alter ego.

Miss it? No, it's the part I'm specifically addressing.

All them words, & you haven't yet addressed the argument I posed about omniscience being incompatible with
free will. To sum it up, you cannot make any choice but the one God could've foreseen if he'd chosen to learn it.

On the contrary, if you read "all them words" you will see I have addressed the argument quite adequately.

It is true that you cannot make a choice that God cannot know if he chooses to, but unless YOU know it yourself and see it demonstrated in your own actions and know that your choice is responsible for the penalty, it will not mean the same. No one will forfeit life who has not seen their own fault. All will know why they have been judged as unworthy to retain the gift of life. God doesn't just snuff out life on a whim. He gives everyone the same opportunity to get things right, even those who have never heard of him. Conscience is the faculty we all have that acts as our moral compass.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Don't you desire what you need?

Frequently, yes; but as I pointed out, the animal side often fails at this (not infrequently by failing to percieve such a need).

Peace,

Bruce

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Not at all sure of what you're addressing in my remark, but that aside, If god exists as Christians claim (as an omniscient being), then it wouldn't be a "supposedly" situation, but one of knowledge. God would already know what people will actually do in the future. Therefore, I can't see where judging people now or in the future makes any difference.

I'm saying that you would still have to take his word for it that the action you were being judged for was something you were going to do in the future as it's something only he can see. My point is that an omniscient God just can't win in the eyes of some people. If he doesn't act on his foreknowledge they blame him for not avoid catastophes that he knew were in the future. If he acts on his foreknowledge they'll certainly accuse him of prejudging. To simply accept without complaint his judgements on acts not yet realized would require embracing the blind faith that so many people show such a disdain for on RF.