Is Satan an Atheist or believes in God?

[The Kilted Heathen]

People who believe in God as in the absolute, will be guided to truth available to them.

Cool, but that's not applicable to what an Atheist is.

 

[sun rise]

to Ahlulbayt about the God

A note - don't expect people to look up non-English words here and to understand you if your point depends on such words.

 

[Link]

A note - don't expect people to look up non-English words here and to understand you if your point depends on such words.

That's a fair point.

By Ahlulbayt I mean Mohammad (s), Fatima (s) and the Twelve Successors (a) of Mohammad (s).

 

[Deidre]

I've read various things from perspectives speaking ''on behalf'' of Lucifer, the fallen angel and also from a Biblical perspective, and it would seem he accepts that God is God, but doesn't want to worship any god. So, it's not so much that he is an atheist, but rather he has no need for a god in his life. You can believe in God, but choose to not worship him.

 

[firedragon]

It's submission to God through acknowledging the Authority of Adam (a). The physical prostrations are only acknowledging God as Authority but most people don't perceive this.

We are asked to submit to Mohammad (s) only because Mohammad (s) is means to God. The true submission is to God.

Sajadah means all of that?

tell me how would this mean all of that mean in a sentence like "go to Egypt in Sujood"?

 

[Link]

I've read various things from perspectives speaking ''on behalf'' of Lucifer, the fallen angel and also from a Biblical perspective, and it would seem he accepts that God is God, but doesn't want to worship any god. So, it's not so much that he is an atheist, but rather he has no need for a god in his life. You can believe in God, but choose to not worship him.

You can choose not to worship him, but you can't believe in God and believe God is wrong in what he commands. While it's possible that he believes in his own understanding of God and disbelieves the order of heavens and earth, I would say Quran says whoever believes in God as Lord and King, as well as his divinity, will believe and be guided and much of Quran is that whoever believes in God, God will guide them.

This is why God said even though Iblis was mocking the Ahlulbayt (a) and their concept of God, that anyone who is sincere to him will be guided. Sincere in actually being fully committed to God is not what is meant as most humans won't past that test, and so the hadiths and Quran actually show and Surah 112 is termed "Ikhlas" (Sincerity) in that all that is required is to believe in God without partners and believe he is the Ruler and King and if you do so you will acknowledge the Authority and Power of his chosen ones if shown to you and you will maintain the light of reason.

God doesn't require much of humans, all he asks us is to believe in his oneness and authority, and rely on his guidance and seek his forgiveness and believe in his compassion. He doesn't need us all to be saints right away, he is saying, just believe in me and my Messengers, and I will guide you through darkness of your sins into the light of majestic glories of my face and I will cleanse you and complete my favor on you no matter how numerous your sins are - I will redeem you as long as you hold on to me and my light.

 

[firedragon]

A note - don't expect people to look up non-English words here and to understand you if your point depends on such words.

Ahl means "people"
Bayth means home or house as in a dwelling place where family lives or/and dwells.

Ahlil Baith means people of the house and it generally means family. Shii's originally reserved this term to mean Muhammeds family in order to venerate Ali ibn Abu Talib, the cousin and son in law of Muhammed and later in extension those connected, and then those connected, and so on.

 

[Link]

Sajadah means all of that?

tell me how would this mean all of that mean in a sentence like "go to Egypt in Sujood"?

I thought you meant in context of Angels (a) and Adam (a) and how that relates to Mohammad (s).

 

[firedragon]

I thought you meant in context of Angels (a) and Adam (a) and how the relates to Mohammad (s).

Any context. I am quarrying the meaning of the word in context. I am trying to show you that it does not have so much baggage the way you have portrayed it. Physical prostration, submission to Allah and this and the other. Anyway if it means all of that Asshaythan would not have been told to do sajadah to Adam because Adam is not God. This Sujood a simple humility or if you want you could call it submission, but not submission to Allah and a physical prostration. You cannot travel to Egypt in a position of prostration, which is stupid, and satan would not be asked to prostrate to Adam in physical prostration and veneration to Allah which more than stupid.

Sorry for the crude words but it is not easier otherwise. Thus, think a bit. Satan is simply asked to pay humility to man.

Nevertheless, you should also know that in Arabic there is a difference between sun and moon letters. Asshaythan and just shaythan are two different things. Shayatheena as a word means a deviation of rebellious nature. Rebellious deviation.

The way you are rendering all of this is just way too limited brother.

 

[Colt]

Salam

Everyone assumes he believes in God but is disobeying, and hence his disbelief is due not being submissive, but I find opposite proof to this in Quran. He does not believe in God and I've tried to show the way he talks to God is sarcasm to Ahlulbayt about the God as if talking to God that they believe, he is talking to the veils, in a sarcastic way as if the voice utter through them is not God but definitely a falsehood.

Today, I was rereading tuhuf al-Uqool, and in it I found:

Harun asked the Imam (7th Imam) about the first one who apostatized and became an atheist. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered:

The first one who apostatized and became an atheist in the heavens was Eblis the cursed. He showed arrogance and took pride in himself against Adam (peace be upon him) the choice and confidant of God. The cursed said - as it is mentioned in the Quran-:

I am better than Adam, for You have created me out of fire and Adam out of clay. [309]

Thus, he rejected the Lord’s orders and became atheist. His offspring inherited atheism from him.

Harun wondered whether Eblis has offspring. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered:

Eblis has offspring. Listen to God’s saying:

When We told the angels to prostrate before Adam they all obeyed except Eblis. He was a jinn and he sinned against the command of his Lord. Why do you (people) obey him and his offspring instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? How terrible will be the recompense that the wrong doers will receive! I did not call (the unjust) to witness the creation of the heavens and earth nor to witness their own creation nor did I want to be helped by those who lead people astray. [310]

They mislead the offspring of Adam through their false vanities and lies. Meanwhile, they declare that there is no god but Allah. God describes them in His following saying:

If you ask them, "Who has created the heavens and the earth," they will certainly say, "God has created them." Say, "It is only God who deserves all praise, but most of them do not know." [311]

This means that they declare so only with their tongues because they used to say so as one of their customs. He who does not believe, even if he declares with the tongue, will be suspicious, envious, and resistant.

Its my understanding that Lucifer, Satan and those who followed them into rebellion became in effect Atheist concerning the existence of the Universal Father. They know the Creator Son and many other sons of God in the celestial world, angels etc, but Lucifer lived by "faith" in the unseen Paradise Father. Lucifer took himself too seriously and managed to delude himself into Atheism. Lucifer, the “friend of men and angels" and the “God of liberty.” Self-assertion was the battle cry of the Lucifer rebellion.

Simply put, Lucifer decided that he just didn't like the way the universe was run! So in his ignorance and self delusion he thought he could run it better himself. Lucifer's pride was so invested in the untruth that he couldn't turn back, even to his own self destruction. It could happen to any of us!

 

[Link]

Its my understanding that Lucifer, Satan and those who followed them into rebellion became in effect Atheist concerning the existence of the Universal Father. They know the Creator Son and many other sons of God in the celestial world, but Lucifer lived by "faith" in the unseen Paradise Father. Lucifer took himself too seriously and managed to delude himself into Atheism. Lucifer, the “friend of men and angels" and the “God of liberty.” Self-assertion was the battle cry of the Lucifer rebellion.

Simply put, Lucifer decided that he just didn't like the way the universe was run! So in his ignorance and self delusion he thought he could run it better himself. Lucifer's pride was so invested in the untruth that he couldn't turn back, even to his own self destruction. It could happen to any of us!

You put it eloquently and correctly but I just differ that he doesn't believe in a Creator. There is further proof in that Iblis doesn't call to worship a different God, but hopes he will be worshiped, meaning, he sees himself as one of the highest if not highest of beings alive. The hadiths including Nahjul Balagha by Imam Ali (a) show that Iblis always had hope to be worshiped and to an extent with Quran being revealed despaired of victory (although this despair is not complete, just with little hope now).

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

You can choose not to worship him, but you can't believe in God and believe God is wrong in what he commands.

Yes, you absolutely can.

Do you care what the President of Bangladesh says?

 

[firedragon]

Its my understanding that Lucifer, Satan and those who followed them into rebellion became in effect Atheist concerning the existence of the Universal Father. They know the Creator Son and many other sons of God in the celestial world, angels etc, but Lucifer lived by "faith" in the unseen Paradise Father. Lucifer took himself too seriously and managed to delude himself into Atheism. Lucifer, the “friend of men and angels" and the “God of liberty.” Self-assertion was the battle cry of the Lucifer rebellion.

Simply put, Lucifer decided that he just didn't like the way the universe was run! So in his ignorance and self delusion he thought he could run it better himself. Lucifer's pride was so invested in the untruth that he couldn't turn back, even to his own self destruction. It could happen to any of us!

The Qur'anic understand is completely different to all of that. Said since the thread in my opinion is quoting the Quranic discourse.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, you absolutely can.

Sorry but that's Impossible. Its like a squared circle. Logically contradicting unless you dont follow something like the law of non contradiction.

 

[Kenny]

Salam

Everyone assumes he believes in God but is disobeying, and hence his disbelief is due not being submissive, but I find opposite proof to this in Quran. He does not believe in God and I've tried to show the way he talks to God is sarcasm to Ahlulbayt about the God as if talking to God that they believe, he is talking to the veils, in a sarcastic way as if the voice utter through them is not God but definitely a falsehood.

Today, I was rereading tuhuf al-Uqool, and in it I found:

Harun asked the Imam (7th Imam) about the first one who apostatized and became an atheist. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered:

The first one who apostatized and became an atheist in the heavens was Eblis the cursed. He showed arrogance and took pride in himself against Adam (peace be upon him) the choice and confidant of God. The cursed said - as it is mentioned in the Quran-:

I am better than Adam, for You have created me out of fire and Adam out of clay. [309]

Thus, he rejected the Lord’s orders and became atheist. His offspring inherited atheism from him.

Harun wondered whether Eblis has offspring. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered:

Eblis has offspring. Listen to God’s saying:

When We told the angels to prostrate before Adam they all obeyed except Eblis. He was a jinn and he sinned against the command of his Lord. Why do you (people) obey him and his offspring instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? How terrible will be the recompense that the wrong doers will receive! I did not call (the unjust) to witness the creation of the heavens and earth nor to witness their own creation nor did I want to be helped by those who lead people astray. [310]

They mislead the offspring of Adam through their false vanities and lies. Meanwhile, they declare that there is no god but Allah. God describes them in His following saying:

If you ask them, "Who has created the heavens and the earth," they will certainly say, "God has created them." Say, "It is only God who deserves all praise, but most of them do not know." [311]

This means that they declare so only with their tongues because they used to say so as one of their customs. He who does not believe, even if he declares with the tongue, will be suspicious, envious, and resistant.

In our perspective... he believes and is not an atheist.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devilsalso believe, and tremble.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Sorry but that's Impossible. Its like a squared circle. Logically contradicting unless you dont follow something like the law of non contradiction.

It's not impossible, you're just locked in a monotheistic mindset. I'll ask you too; do you care what the President of Bangladesh says or does?

 

[Link]

In our perspective... he believes and is not an atheist.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devilsalso believe, and tremble.

Devils all believe deep inside and know as they witness the holy spirit and it's power in Moses, Jesus, etc, and tremble at it, but they deceive themselves they are good and Angels and chosen ones are on the wrong side.

Like I explained, they are in cognitive dissonance. They witness the power and light and greatness of the chosen ones, but lie to themselves that it's not proof of the Creator and him sustaining them.

 

[Colt]

You put it eloquently and correctly but I just differ that he doesn't believe in a Creator. There is further proof in that Iblis doesn't call to worship a different God, but hopes he will be worshiped, meaning, he sees himself as one of the highest if not highest of beings alive. The hadiths including Nahjul Balagha by Imam Ali (a) show that Iblis always had hope to be worshiped and to an extent with Quran being revealed despaired of victory (although this despair is not complete, just with little hope now).

Yes, isn't it ironic, Lucifer fell into "disbelief" in God.....but saw no issue with trying to make himself God. Our conceit can elude our logic. Lucifer then was a God he could believe in!

 

[Link]

Yes, isn't it ironic, Lucifer fell into "disbelief" in God.....but saw no issue with trying to make himself God. Our conceit can elude our logic. Lucifer then was a God he could believe in!

Truth.

 

[Colt]

The Qur'anic understand is completely different to all of that. Said since the thread in my opinion is quoting the Quranic discourse.

Something is true. Not everything believed or conceived is true.

I think it's true that Holy men write scriptures and then claim God wrote it so they can control what people think.