Is Satan an Atheist or believes in God?

[The Kilted Heathen]

For posterity, you do realize that the only reason "Lucifer" is associated with "the Devil" (i.e. "Satan", "Beelzebub", etc) is because of poor translation of the Latin Vulgate when making the King James Bible? Lucifer is a Roman personification deity, he has nothing to do with Abrahamism.

 

[Kenny]

Devils all believe deep inside and know as they witness the holy spirit and it's power in Moses, Jesus, etc, and tremble at it, but they deceive themselves they are good and Angels and chosen ones are on the wrong side.

Like I explained, they are in cognitive dissonance. They witness the power and light and greatness of the chosen ones, but lie to themselves that it's not proof of the Creator and him sustaining them.

Yes... I do believe that they believe in their own lies with Satan being the father of lies.

 

[AlexanderG]

Salam

Everyone assumes he believes in God but is disobeying, and hence his disbelief is due not being submissive, but I find opposite proof to this in Quran. He does not believe in God and I've tried to show the way he talks to God is sarcasm to Ahlulbayt about the God as if talking to God that they believe, he is talking to the veils, in a sarcastic way as if the voice utter through them is not God but definitely a falsehood.

Today, I was rereading tuhuf al-Uqool, and in it I found:

Harun asked the Imam (7th Imam) about the first one who apostatized and became an atheist. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered:

The first one who apostatized and became an atheist in the heavens was Eblis the cursed. He showed arrogance and took pride in himself against Adam (peace be upon him) the choice and confidant of God. The cursed said - as it is mentioned in the Quran-:

I am better than Adam, for You have created me out of fire and Adam out of clay. [309]

Thus, he rejected the Lord’s orders and became atheist. His offspring inherited atheism from him.

Harun wondered whether Eblis has offspring. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered:

Eblis has offspring. Listen to God’s saying:

When We told the angels to prostrate before Adam they all obeyed except Eblis. He was a jinn and he sinned against the command of his Lord. Why do you (people) obey him and his offspring instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? How terrible will be the recompense that the wrong doers will receive! I did not call (the unjust) to witness the creation of the heavens and earth nor to witness their own creation nor did I want to be helped by those who lead people astray. [310]

They mislead the offspring of Adam through their false vanities and lies. Meanwhile, they declare that there is no god but Allah. God describes them in His following saying:

If you ask them, "Who has created the heavens and the earth," they will certainly say, "God has created them." Say, "It is only God who deserves all praise, but most of them do not know." [311]

This means that they declare so only with their tongues because they used to say so as one of their customs. He who does not believe, even if he declares with the tongue, will be suspicious, envious, and resistant.

Let me see if I can recap what you mean by "atheist" based on this thread so far:

1. Someone who believes that the being described by faithful believers as "god" exists, but doesn't worship that being, is an atheist.
2. Someone who believes that the being described by faithful believers as "god" exists, but thinks that being could be wrong about something, is an atheist.
3. Someone can see think they are a god and believe they themselves exist, but secretly not be the actual god that you believe in (and which is definitely the one true god because you personally can't be mistaken), and that makes them an atheist.

Under this definition and particularly part 3, isn't it possible that Allah is an atheist? He could think he's the one true god, but actually be unaware of a higher god that created him, who in turn gave Allah all power and knowledge except the power or knowledge to discover the existence of this higher god? So all Muslims could be worshipping a false god, even though Allah would still exist in this hypothetical? And maybe this higher god is actually the god of the Mormons.

I'm just saying. I mean, we're all just speculating and making stuff up because we find it appealing, right? In any case, I completely reject your definition of atheist.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Since we're all conversing in English, using English definitions of words (assumedly), let's just get this out of the way:

Atheist
noun

athe·ist | \ ˈā-thē-ist \
Definition of atheist
: a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods; one who subscribes to or advocates atheism

 

[Nimos]

Everyone assumes he believes in God but is disobeying, and hence his disbelief is due not being submissive, but I find opposite proof to this in Quran.

I don't see how one can be an atheist if they know a God(s) exist. That seem much like making a squared circle.

 

[Link]

3. Someone can see think they are a god and believe they themselves exist, but secretly not be the actual god that you believe in (and which is definitely the one true god because you personally can't be mistaken), and that makes them an atheist.

Under this definition and particularly part 3, isn't it possible that Allah is an atheist? He could think he's the one true god, but actually be unaware of a higher god that created him, who in turn gave Allah all power and knowledge except the power or knowledge to discover the existence of this higher god? So all Muslims could be worshipping a false god, even though Allah would still exist in this hypothetical? And maybe this higher god is actually the god of the Mormons.

I'm just saying. I mean, we're all just speculating and making stuff up because we find it appealing, right? In any case, I completely reject your definition of atheist.

The definition of an Atheist really is who doesn't believe in a Creator type God, and Iblis does not believe that.

 

[Link]

Since we're all conversing in English, using English definitions of words (assumedly), let's just get this out of the way:

Atheist
noun

athe·ist | \ ˈā-thē-ist \
Definition of atheist
: a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods; one who subscribes to or advocates atheism

By the lose definitions, a god is what is valued highest or things valued very highly, and atheists value humans highest since they don't believe anything higher then humans that they know of, and so humans would be their gods per that definition.

Definition wise, it's not that useful. Atheists really are people who don't believe there is a Eternal Absolute Creator to this universe. Iblis is such a creature.

 

[Link]

I don't see how one can be an atheist if they know a God(s) exist. That seem much like making a squared circle.

Yes, and furthermore to your point, Quran says who believes in God or fears God will enter paradise. Muslims falsely assume Iblis believes and fears God. They don't understand verses properly. Iblis fear of God is really fear of chosen ones and their power including that of Gabriel and Michael. Deep inside he has deceived himself and deceives others but has deceived himself that his rebellion was based on reason.

And he furthermore deceives himself as a champion but deep inside, he really wants people to enter fire, but has deceived himself that he is a good guy.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Salam

Everyone assumes he believes in God but is disobeying, and hence his disbelief is due not being submissive, but I find opposite proof to this in Quran. He does not believe in God and I've tried to show the way he talks to God is sarcasm to Ahlulbayt about the God as if talking to God that they believe, he is talking to the veils, in a sarcastic way as if the voice utter through them is not God but definitely a falsehood.

Today, I was rereading tuhuf al-Uqool, and in it I found:

Harun asked the Imam (7th Imam) about the first one who apostatized and became an atheist. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered:

The first one who apostatized and became an atheist in the heavens was Eblis the cursed. He showed arrogance and took pride in himself against Adam (peace be upon him) the choice and confidant of God. The cursed said - as it is mentioned in the Quran-:

I am better than Adam, for You have created me out of fire and Adam out of clay. [309]

Thus, he rejected the Lord’s orders and became atheist. His offspring inherited atheism from him.

Harun wondered whether Eblis has offspring. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered:

Eblis has offspring. Listen to God’s saying:

When We told the angels to prostrate before Adam they all obeyed except Eblis. He was a jinn and he sinned against the command of his Lord. Why do you (people) obey him and his offspring instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? How terrible will be the recompense that the wrong doers will receive! I did not call (the unjust) to witness the creation of the heavens and earth nor to witness their own creation nor did I want to be helped by those who lead people astray. [310]

They mislead the offspring of Adam through their false vanities and lies. Meanwhile, they declare that there is no god but Allah. God describes them in His following saying:

If you ask them, "Who has created the heavens and the earth," they will certainly say, "God has created them." Say, "It is only God who deserves all praise, but most of them do not know." [311]

This means that they declare so only with their tongues because they used to say so as one of their customs. He who does not believe, even if he declares with the tongue, will be suspicious, envious, and resistant.

Atheism is a lack of belief that any god exists. What you're describing isn't a lack of belief in this being's existence, but rather a lack of belief that this being is deserving of worship and obedience.

I'm an atheist because there is no verifiable evidence that any god entity exists. If I were shown verifiable evidence for a god I would start believing that this god exists and would no longer be an atheist, but I may not believe that this god entity is worthy of my worship or obedience.

 

[Link]

Atheism is a lack of belief that any god exists. What you're describing isn't a lack of belief in this being's existence, but rather a lack of belief that this being is deserving of worship and obedience.

I'm an atheist because there is no verifiable evidence that any god entity exists. If I were shown verifiable evidence for a god I would start believing that this god exists and would no longer be an atheist, but I may not believe that this god entity is worthy of my worship or obedience.

I'm saying he doesn't believe the Creator absolute being exists.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

By the lose definitions, a god is what is valued highest or things valued very highly

If by "loose definitions" you mean "some nonsense that has no practical application." Theologically speaking (as is relevant to atheism) god is defined as such:

god noun
\ ˈgäd also ˈgȯd \
plural: gods

1. God: the supreme or ultimate reality: such as
   a: the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped (as in Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism) as creator and ruler of the universe
   Throughout the patristic and medieval periods, Christian theologians taught that God created the universe …— Jame Schaefer
   … the Supreme Being or God, the personal form of the Ultimate Reality, is conceived by Hindus as having various aspects.— Sunita Pant Bansal
   
   b Christian Science: the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2. or less commonly God : a being or object that is worshipped as having more than natural attributes and powers
   specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality Greek gods of love and war

Humans do not match such a definition, nor does your opinion on what Atheists hold in value or high regard.

Atheists really are people who don't believe there is a Eternal Absolute Creator to this universe. Iblis is such a creature.

No, he is not. Because by your own doctrines he knows this being exists, and he defies him. This does not make for an Atheist.

 

[blü 2]

Salam

Everyone assumes he believes in God but is disobeying, and hence his disbelief is due not being submissive, but I find opposite proof to this in Quran. He does not believe in God and I've tried to show the way he talks to God is sarcasm to Ahlulbayt about the God as if talking to God that they believe, he is talking to the veils, in a sarcastic way as if the voice utter through them is not God but definitely a falsehood.

Today, I was rereading tuhuf al-Uqool, and in it I found:

Harun asked the Imam (7th Imam) about the first one who apostatized and became an atheist. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered:

The first one who apostatized and became an atheist in the heavens was Eblis the cursed. He showed arrogance and took pride in himself against Adam (peace be upon him) the choice and confidant of God. The cursed said - as it is mentioned in the Quran-:

I am better than Adam, for You have created me out of fire and Adam out of clay. [309]

Thus, he rejected the Lord’s orders and became atheist. His offspring inherited atheism from him.

Harun wondered whether Eblis has offspring. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered:

Eblis has offspring. Listen to God’s saying:

When We told the angels to prostrate before Adam they all obeyed except Eblis. He was a jinn and he sinned against the command of his Lord. Why do you (people) obey him and his offspring instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? How terrible will be the recompense that the wrong doers will receive! I did not call (the unjust) to witness the creation of the heavens and earth nor to witness their own creation nor did I want to be helped by those who lead people astray. [310]

They mislead the offspring of Adam through their false vanities and lies. Meanwhile, they declare that there is no god but Allah. God describes them in His following saying:

If you ask them, "Who has created the heavens and the earth," they will certainly say, "God has created them." Say, "It is only God who deserves all praise, but most of them do not know." [311]

This means that they declare so only with their tongues because they used to say so as one of their customs. He who does not believe, even if he declares with the tongue, will be suspicious, envious, and resistant.

I'd start with three main possibilities.

Satan is omnipotent and God is not (thus Satan is responsible for God).

God is omnipotent and Satan is not (thus God is responsible for Satan).

Neither God nor Satan is omnipotent and no one is in charge (as the Zoroastrians assert).

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

He fears the Prophets and Messengers and Guides and Angels, but yes, you are right, he is hoping to overthrow the order of the heavens and earth and wants to get help from humans and get a champion in which he will fuse with him as his companion (Qareen) and together will be able to overthrow the stars and lights of heaven and their power and authority.

He has deceived himself as a champion to free human and Jinn from what he deems to be a false authority and deception on part of Ahlulbayts of the past to the present, and wishes to get help from sorcerers and Jinn to maximize power.

You are correct sir.

Do you realize that you are making really quite extravagant claims -- as if you actually knew -- about what a likely non-existent being believes or doesn't?

How on earth do you suppose you can know so much about what is (approximately) 100% unevidenced?

 

[QuestioningMind]

I'm saying he doesn't believe the Creator absolute being exists.

Why? If a creator absolute being was proven to exist I would believe it exists. That doesn't mean that I would automatically worship and obey this being.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do you realize that you are making really quite extravagant claims -- as if you actually knew -- about what a likely non-existent being believes or doesn't?

How on earth do you suppose you can know so much about what is (approximately) 100% unevidenced?

That is a benefit of having a make belief. One can know what the characters are thinking at any time. You on the other hand are real. Can I know what you are thinking? Not a chance. But if I make up a character I can say with utmost certainty what that character is thinking.

 

[firedragon]

It's not impossible, you're just locked in a monotheistic mindset. I'll ask you too; do you care what the President of Bangladesh says or does?

Its not being locked in a certain mindset. When someone refers to God, being a Muslim he refers to Allah. It means The God, the one and only God. What else do you expect? When someone says "my wife is a woman" you cant go and tell him "No no. It is possible she is a man". It maybe relevant to you, but not to the proponent.

Anyway, I dont know what the president of Bangladesh says or does, and for theology, I dont care. Yet I am "interested in knowing".

 

[firedragon]

Something is true. Not everything believed or conceived is true.

I think it's true that Holy men write scriptures and then claim God wrote it so they can control what people think.

The Qur'anic understand is completely different to all of that. Said since the thread in my opinion is quoting the Quranic discourse.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Pharaoh deep inside knew Moses miracles were true but still disbelieved. There is something called cognitive dissonance. He deep inside knows but has deceived himself otherwise.

You're suggesting he's suffering tension between evidence and belief?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

When someone refers to God, being a Muslim he refers to Allah. It means The God, the one and only God.

Yeah, and that's being locked into a monotheistic mindset. Thanks for verifying that.

I dont know what the president of Bangladesh says or does, and for theology, I dont care.

And yet, you know and recognize that he is the President of Bangladesh. In the exact same manner, Iblis can know and recognize that "Allah" is a god, and not care what he says or does.

 

[firedragon]

Yeah, and that's being locked into a monotheistic mindset. Thanks for verifying that.

You cant expect a monotheist to be polytheistic. Or a polytheist to be monotheistic. That is the definition of an oxymoron. And that is the logical impossibility any philosopher or any one for that matter always speaks about.

Anyway if this is the level of discussion, I will withdraw from it.

And yet, you know and recognize that he is the President of Bangladesh. In the exact same manner, Iblis can know and recognize that "Allah" is a god, and not care what he says or does.

The statement Allah is a God is like saying My father is a pater. Nevertheless, your statement is logically true.