Is Satan an Atheist or believes in God?

[firedragon]

Talk about making things up... Running a search of "Ayya Nayaka" we got this guy's Facebook page.

Running a search? Lol. Thats your method. First you falsely claim that "ayya Nayaka" is a polytheistic religion, or/and henotheism, and only now you are "searching"?

Now do you see that you just made up a bogus statement that it was polytheistic?

If you want to learn about the religion called Ayya nayaka, I can send you some documents. Maybe I will upload a small snippet for you to analyse with this post.

 

[firedragon]

ADD: (+32 minutes) Nothing, @firedragon ?

Hmm. The world is waiting on tiptoe till you make your divine request to oblige. 32 minutes is too long a wait for superior beings while others are slaving around his tail hungry for attention.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Running a search? Lol. Thats your method.

Oh, right, I forgot I was supposed to charter a flight and take a whole journey like Stephen Strange when I have the internet at my fingertips.

First you falsely claim that "ayya Nayaka" is a polytheistic religion, or/and henotheism,

No. As stated in the prior post which you've largely ignored, I stated that Ayyavazhi is henotheistic. I outlined my process, what was searched for (a method no matter the source) and what was found. As best can be found there is no religion named "Ayya Nayaka", and you're supplying nothing to show that there is. Any documents that you have would turn up in a search, ergo they most likely are not saying what you think they're saying.

I've entertained this red herring enough, and it's clear you're just here for the "gotcha".

 

[firedragon]

Oh, right, I forgot I was supposed to charter a flight and take a whole journey like Stephen Strange when I have the internet at my fingertips.

You could ask.

No. As stated in the prior post which you've largely ignored, I stated that Ayyavazhi is henotheistic.

Thats irrelevant. Speaking of red herrings, what you did is the definition of red herring.

Cheers.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

You could ask.

Not you. Because you had an axe to grind in asking your "gotcha" question, and any answers from you would thus be dishonest.

Additionally half the reward is finding out for oneself. And boy, did I learn a few things.

Thats irrelevant.

No, it really isn't, and you sound like a broken record saying that. The theology of Ayyavazhi is completely relevant, as in searching for "Ayya Nayaka" that is the only actual religion that shows up. As laid out in detail, Ayyavazhi was the subject of my answer to your ill-intending question.

Which, to note, was a red herring, distracting away from your logical error regarding Iblis recognizing and knowing your god, yet defying him.

 

[syo]

Satan is a loyal servant of God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

Everyone assumes he believes in God but is disobeying, and hence his disbelief is due not being submissive, but I find opposite proof to this in Quran. He does not believe in God and I've tried to show the way he talks to God is sarcasm to Ahlulbayt about the God as if talking to God that they believe, he is talking to the veils, in a sarcastic way as if the voice utter through them is not God but definitely a falsehood.

Today, I was rereading tuhuf al-Uqool, and in it I found:

Harun asked the Imam (7th Imam) about the first one who apostatized and became an atheist. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered:

The first one who apostatized and became an atheist in the heavens was Eblis the cursed. He showed arrogance and took pride in himself against Adam (peace be upon him) the choice and confidant of God. The cursed said - as it is mentioned in the Quran-:

I am better than Adam, for You have created me out of fire and Adam out of clay. [309]

Thus, he rejected the Lord’s orders and became atheist. His offspring inherited atheism from him.

Harun wondered whether Eblis has offspring. The Imam (peace be upon him) answered:

Eblis has offspring. Listen to God’s saying:

When We told the angels to prostrate before Adam they all obeyed except Eblis. He was a jinn and he sinned against the command of his Lord. Why do you (people) obey him and his offspring instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? How terrible will be the recompense that the wrong doers will receive! I did not call (the unjust) to witness the creation of the heavens and earth nor to witness their own creation nor did I want to be helped by those who lead people astray. [310]

They mislead the offspring of Adam through their false vanities and lies. Meanwhile, they declare that there is no god but Allah. God describes them in His following saying:

If you ask them, "Who has created the heavens and the earth," they will certainly say, "God has created them." Say, "It is only God who deserves all praise, but most of them do not know." [311]

This means that they declare so only with their tongues because they used to say so as one of their customs. He who does not believe, even if he declares with the tongue, will be suspicious, envious, and resistant.

In my view The story, is about adherents of a religion, who believe in God, but when God sends a new messenger, and asks them to follow the new commands of God, they show arrogance and disobey. The Satan, does not literally exist. It is an analogy. It is a symbolic story.

 

[firedragon]

Not you. Because you had an axe to grind

Genetic fallacy. Bigotry.

No, it really isn't

Oh absolutely.

 

[firedragon]

In my view The story, is about adherents of a religion, who believe in God, but when God sends a new messenger, and asks them to follow the new commands of God, they show arrogance and disobey. The Satan, does not literally exist. It is an analogy. It is a symbolic story.

So these adherents who are arrogant and disobey were jinns?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So these adherents who are arrogant and disobey were jinns?

To me, the story of Iblis, disobeying God, when asked to fall in prostration to Adam is symbolic. It is an allusion to any people, who believe in God, and are actually following God, until God sends a new messenger to them (such as Adam), and then they show arrogance and disobey. An example of such people, were the Jews who lived at the time of Jesus. While Jesus had not come, they all believed and worshipped God, but once God sent Jesus to them and asked them to obey Jesus, they showed arrogance, as even the Quran says. So, Satan, or ibis just a symbolic representation of such people and their arrogance.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Genetic fallacy. Bigotry.

Rebuttal w/ cited sources

Oh absolutely.

Retort: Generic, value=' ' No U ' ', ref.cycle.ad.infinitum

 

[firedragon]

To me, the story of Iblis, disobeying God, when asked to fall in prostration to Adam is symbolic. It is an allusion to any people, who believe in God, and are actually following God, until God sends a new messenger to them (such as Adam), and then they show arrogance and disobey. An example of such people, were the Jews who lived at the time of Jesus. While Jesus had not come, they all believed and worshipped God, but once God sent Jesus to them and asked them to obey Jesus, they showed arrogance, as even the Quran says. So, Satan, or ibis just a symbolic representation of such people and their arrogance.

Yeah. So again, are those who are arrogant disobeying Jinns?

Thats the question.

 

[firedragon]

Rebuttal w/ cited sources


Retort: Generic, value=' ' No U ' ', ref.cycle.ad.infinitum

Nah. I think you should resort to googling and stating the list of things you find or dont find.

I have given you direct source, try and read. If you are looking for some wikipedia page or some web page I am not a google assistant. Hire an assistant who responds to you within your 32 minute mark so that you can complain and maybe cut salaries when they delay.

Do some real research. Ask some knowledgeable people. You won't find everything on the internet and sometimes you will find things only in other languages. First thing you need is to humble yourself and acknowledge that some things need to be asked from someone, and find some one who has the linguistic knowledge somewhere you could trust, and clarify.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yeah. So again, are those who are arrogant disobeying Jinns?

Thats the question.

Yes the, Jins are some of them. But I believe the Jins, are also analogy for some humans. I think, prior to Muhammad, the Arabs believed in existence of Jins, which I believe it was a myth. Then when Muhammad came, He used the idea of Jins in Quran, as analogy for certain people, because according to a wisdom, He did not want to address them directly. So, He addressed Jins instead, through this, He indirectly was addressing some people.

 

[firedragon]

Yes the, Jins are some of them.

You twisted it.

Okay. you spoke of Jews. Were they Jinns?

 

[firedragon]

I think, prior to Muhammad, the Arabs believed in existence of Jins, which I believe it was a myth. Then when Muhammad came, He used the idea of Jins in Quran, as analogy for certain people, because according to a wisdom, He did not want to address them directly. So, He addressed Jins instead, through this, He indirectly was addressing some people.

See, saying "I think" is not valid. You can think a lot of things, doesnt make it valid. There was one woman who "thought" her children were born to Michael Jackson. Freud writes about a woman who thinks she has nails in her hair. There are some people who "think" hiring a virgin prostitute will cure them of HIV.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

See, saying "I think" is not valid. You can think a lot of things, doesnt make it valid. There was one woman who "thought" her children were born to Michael Jackson. Freud writes about a woman who thinks she has nails in her hair. There are some people who "think" hiring a virgin prostitute will cure them of HIV.

Looks like I was right when I said "I think".

I quote Wikipedia:



"Jinn (Arabic: جن‎, jinn) – also romanized as djinn or anglicized as genie (with the broader meaning of spirit or demon, depending on source)[1][2]: 22 – are supernatural creatures in early pre-Islamic Arabian and later Islamic mythology and theology.[3]

 

[firedragon]

Looks like I was right when I said "I think".

I quote Wikipedia:



"Jinn (Arabic: جن‎, jinn) – also romanized as djinn or anglicized as genie (with the broader meaning of spirit or demon, depending on source)[1][2]: 22 – are supernatural creatures in early pre-Islamic Arabian and later Islamic mythology and theology.[3]

Where does it say Muhammed came, the Arabs were believing in Jinns, so he used it as allegory or whatever of that nature?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You twisted it.

Okay. you spoke of Jews. Were they Jinns?

Not only some Jews, but in my view, in the Quran, even some believers are Jinns. The Jinns are made of fire, is just an allusion to the personality of some religious people who are fanatical and are "heated up".

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Where does it say Muhammed came, the Arabs were believing in Jinns, so he used it as allegory or whatever of that nature?

It says, it was a pre-islamic belief. So, it is not like, the Quran, for the first time was introducing the Jinns. People already believed in Jinns prior to Muhammad.