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Is Satan really evil

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
If Satan is Evil, why did one third of the Angels of heaven take his side in the fight against the Archangel Michael.

That is a vast number, he must of had something going they agreed with.

He was Lucifer, the most beautiful and greatest of all the Angels, he sat besides God, yet God failed to notice this Evil.

Surely he did not along with the other one third become Evil overnight.
Okay, I'm going to answer from an LDS (i.e. Mormon) perspective, and this perspective differs from the traditional Christian one quite a bit, primarily because LDS doctrine includes a more in-depth understanding of what the fight was all about in the first place. I've got to give you a little bit of background first, though, or my answer won't make any sense to you at all.

Mormons believe that God is the Father of the spirits of all people who have ever lived or will yet live. I think that most Christians would pretty much agree with that. What they seem to believe, though, is that the spirit which gives life to someone enters the body either at conception, at some time during pregnancy, or at birth. They do not believe it existed prior to that time. Mormons believe that God created our spirits (i.e. our life force, the essence of who we are) millions of years before we were born on earth, and that we -- as spirit beings -- lived with Him in Heaven prior to our births. We call this period of time either "the pre-existence" or our "premortal life." So, for starters, we believe that we (not just Mormons or Christians, but all human beings) were the "host of heaven" or the "angels" spoken of in the Bible in these passages.

Here's how we believe the fight -- or the "war in heaven" began... God, our Father in Heaven, called us all together to tell us about His plan for our eternal happiness and progression. He would create for us a world, into which we would be born to mortal parents, who would be the father and mother of our physical bodies. We would be privileged to live for a period of time on this earth. The memory of our premortal existence would be taken from us. This life would be one of opportunities but also one of trials. We would learn and grow through being exposed to both good and evil, and would be given our "agency," the right to choose for ourselves which path to follow. By making the right choices, we could ultimately progress to the point where we were like Him. (In Genesis, after God expels Adam and Eve from the Garden, He says, "Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." Attaining a knowledge of good and evil is, therefore, important if we are to become like God.)

Now there was a caveat to the plan. We could not return to God's presence in an impure, sinful state. We would have to go through life, never once sinning (which we all knew would be pretty much impossible) in order to return to our heavenly home after death as resurrected beings with perfected, immortal bodies. That, of course, gave us cause for concern. The only other solution would be for someone who could live a perfect, sinless life to be willing to pay for our sins himself, to take upon himself the guilt we had incurred and to endure the punishment we had brought upon ourselves through our sins. If such a person could step in and offer to be our Savior, that would also be acceptable to God. At that time, God's firstborn spirit Son -- the only one of His spirit children who, like Him, was absolutely perfect -- stepped forward and offered to be that individual. Furthermore, all of the glory would be His Father's; He would take none of it himself. It was an act of love that we could probably not have begun to comprehend.

Enter another of God's spirit sons: Lucifer (later to be known as Satan). He presented a kind of a counter plan, one in which we would all go to earth, but where we would have no choices given us. Basically, we would never be faced with a decision as to whether to choose good over evil. We'd live out our lives as puppets, doing only good and experiencing only good. (Of course, "good" can hardly be called "good" if there is no other option.) Nevertheless, since no one would sin, no atoning sacrifice would be required. Everyone would return to Heaven and live happily ever after in their innocent but naive state. And then came the final point of his plan. He would receive all of the credit for the successfully implemented plan and would be exalted above all, even above his Father and God.

What the book of Revelation describes as a "war in heaven" ensued. One third of the host of heaven preferred Lucifer's plan to God's. They didn't want to take any risk of not making it back to heaven, even if it meant returning with no more knowledge and wisdom than they had before. The two-thirds, however, backed God's plan and Jesus' offer to let them retain their agency, their right to choose between good and evil, and to experience mortality with all of its challenges in exchange for wisdom and understanding that could be gotten no other way. The archangel, Michael, led them in their fight for the right. In the end, those who supported God's plan won. They had earned the right to be born, to live mortal lives, to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and to return to God in a perfected state. The third who sided with Lucifer were cast out of heaven forever, losing the privilege of ever again being known as God's children, and to ultimately reside eternally in Outer Darkness, completely devoid of God's presence.

I'm sorry, that was kind of long, but I think it's ultimately a more reasonable answer to your question than you'll be getting from anyone else.
 
Last edited:

Machavelle

Member
Okay, I'm going to answer from an LDS (i.e. Mormon) perspective, and this perspective differs from the traditional Christian one quite a bit, primarily because LDS doctrine includes a more in-depth understanding of what the fight was all about in the first place. I've got to give you a little bit of background first, though, or my answer won't make any sense to you at all.

Mormons believe that God is the Father of the spirits of all people who have ever lived or will yet live. I think that most Christians would pretty much agree with that. What they seem to believe, though, is that the spirit which gives life to someone enters the body either at conception, at some time during pregnancy, or at birth. They do not believe it existed prior to that time. Mormons believe that God created our spirits (i.e. our life force, the essence of who we are) millions of years before we were born on earth, and that we -- as spirit beings -- lived with Him in Heaven prior to our births. We call this period of time either "the pre-existence" or our "premortal life." So, for starters, we believe that we (not just Mormons or Christians, but all human beings) were the "host of heaven" or the "angels" spoken of in the Bible in this particular story.

Here's how we believe the fight -- or the "war in heaven" began... God, our Father in Heaven, called us all together to tell us about His plan for our eternal happiness and progression. He would created for us a world, into which we would be born to mortal parents, who would be the father and mother of our physical bodies. We would be privileged to live for a period of time on this earth. The memory of our premortal existence would be taken from us. This life would be one of opportunities but also one of trials. We would learn and grow through being exposed to both good and evil, and would be given our "agency," the right to choose for ourselves which path to follow. By making the right choices, we could ultimately progress to the point where we were like Him. (In Genesis, after God expels Adam and Eve from the Garden, He says, "Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.")

Now there was a caveat to the plan. We could not return to God's presence in an impure, sinful state. We would either have to go through life, never once sinning (which we all knew would be pretty much impossible) in order to return to our heavenly home after death as resurrected beings with perfected, immortal bodies. That, of course, gave us cause for concern. The only other solution would be for someone who could live a perfect, sinless life to be willing to pay for our sins himself, to take upon himself the guilt we had incurred and to endure the punishment we had brought upon ourselves through our sins. If such a person could step in and offer to be our Savior, that would also be acceptable to God. At that time, God's firstborn spirit Son -- the only one of His spirit children who, like Him, was absolutely perfect -- stepped forward and offered to be that individual. Furthermore, all of the glory would be His Father's; He would take none of it himself. It was an act of love that we could probably not have begun to comprehend.

Enter Lucifer (later to be known as Satan). He presented a kind of a counter plan, one in which we would all go to earth, but where we would have no choices given us. Basically, we would never be faced with a decision as to whether to choose good over evil. We'd live out our lives as puppets, doing only good and experiencing only good. Since no one would sin, no atoning sacrifice would be required. Everyone would return to Heaven and live happily ever after in their innocent but naive state. And then came the final point of his plan. He would receive all of the credit for the successfully implemented plan and would be exalted above all, even about his Father and God.

What the book of Revelation describes as a "war in heaven" ensued. One third of the host of heaven preferred Lucifer's plan to God's. They didn't want to take any risk of not making it back to heaven, even if it meant returning with no more knowledge and wisdom than they had before. The two-thirds, however, backed God's plan and Jesus' offer to let them retain their agency, their right to choose between good and evil, and to experience mortality with all of its challenges in exchange for wisdom and understanding that could be gotten no other way. The archangel, Michael, led them in their fight for the right. In the end, those who supported God's plan won. They had earned the right to be born, to live mortal lives, to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and to return to God in a perfected state. The third who sided with Lucifer were cast out of heaven forever, losing the privilege of ever again being known as God's children, and to ultimately reside eternally in Outer Darkness, completely devoid of God's presence.

I'm sorry, that was kind of long, but I think it's ultimately a more reasonable answer to your question than you'll be getting from anyone else.

Not sure I will go by the rants of the Mormon prophet, he was not known for his honesty
 

Timothy Bryce

Active Member
I remember when my Catholic school forced us to partake in our first Eucharist and Communion at age 9 or something, there was a recital that was along the lines of "do you reject Satan and all his empty promises?" ... Our response was supposed to be a rehearsed and collective "yes," but I recall thinking to myself during our rehearsals that I haven't really met Satan or been offered any of his promises and that we were all being smothered by the church's bias towards Jesus. I remember getting screamed at for asking my teacher why Satan's promises were necessarily "empty"; she never offered me any explanation. If she's still alive today, I think I could probably help her out in forming a reasonably persuasive argument from her angry, warped perspective; I probably wouldn't be able to if I had gone along with all the other genuine Catholics alongside me - dismissing specific people as evil for arbitrary reasons.
 

Timothy Bryce

Active Member
So, how do you tell who the demons are?
kelly_we_have_met_enemy_cvr.jpg

This should be the Catholic Church's new slogan.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
<...>

Enter Lucifer (later to be known as Satan). He presented a kind of a counter plan, one in which we would all go to earth, but where we would have no choices given us. Basically, we would never be faced with a decision as to whether to choose good over evil. We'd live out our lives as puppets, doing only good and experiencing only good. Since no one would sin, no atoning sacrifice would be required. Everyone would return to Heaven and live happily ever after in their innocent but naive state. And then came the final point of his plan. He would receive all of the credit for the successfully implemented plan and would be exalted above all, even about his Father and God.

What the book of Revelation describes as a "war in heaven" ensued. One third of the host of heaven preferred Lucifer's plan to God's. They didn't want to take any risk of not making it back to heaven, even if it meant returning with no more knowledge and wisdom than they had before. The two-thirds, however, backed God's plan and Jesus' offer to let them retain their agency, their right to choose between good and evil, and to experience mortality with all of its challenges in exchange for wisdom and understanding that could be gotten no other way. The archangel, Michael, led them in their fight for the right. In the end, those who supported God's plan won. They had earned the right to be born, to live mortal lives, to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and to return to God in a perfected state. The third who sided with Lucifer were cast out of heaven forever, losing the privilege of ever again being known as God's children, and to ultimately reside eternally in Outer Darkness, completely devoid of God's presence.

I'm sorry, that was kind of long, but I think it's ultimately a more reasonable answer to your question than you'll be getting from anyone else.
Interesting. The preservation of each individual's free will is associated with "good" in both LDS and in the Left Hand Path--except the names have been switched around. Does this mean that LDS rejects the idea of predestination, as well?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Not sure I will go by the rants of the Mormon prophet, he was not known for his honesty
That's certainly your prerogative. Your reply, however, did convince me that you're one person I probably shouldn't waste my time trying to have a dialogue with. I'm glad I learned this early on, because I put quite a bit of thought and time into that post. I'm sorry you found it so useless.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Interesting. The preservation of each individual's free will is associated with "good" in both LDS and in the Left Hand Path--except the names have been switched around. Does this mean that LDS rejects the idea of predestination, as well?
We absolutely reject the idea of predestination. I wasn't aware that we have that in common with the Left Hand Path.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I remember when my Catholic school forced us to partake in our first Eucharist and Communion at age 9 or something, there was a recital that was along the lines of "do you reject Satan and all his empty promises?" ... Our response was supposed to be a rehearsed and collective "yes," but I recall thinking to myself during our rehearsals that I haven't really met Satan or been offered any of his promises and that we were all being smothered by the church's bias towards Jesus. I remember getting screamed at for asking my teacher why Satan's promises were necessarily "empty"; she never offered me any explanation. If she's still alive today, I think I could probably help her out in forming a reasonably persuasive argument from her angry, warped perspective; I probably wouldn't be able to if I had gone along with all the other genuine Catholics alongside me - dismissing specific people as evil for arbitrary reasons.
You sound a lot like me. You may find that odd, but I can imagine myself at age 9 thinking exactly the same thing as you did.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
We absolutely reject the idea of predestination. I wasn't aware that we have that in common with the Left Hand Path.
So, what do you make of the story of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
So, what do you make of the story of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then?
I'm sure I could answer that question if I only understood what you're trying to get at. Could you be a little more specific in the way you put that? "What do I make of it?" I'm just not sure what it is you're asking.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I'm sure I could answer that question if I only understood what you're trying to get at. Could you be a little more specific in the way you put that? "What do I make of it?" I'm just not sure what it is you're asking.
Can you have free-will without the ability to judge good and evil and choose the good over the evil? Without the ability to judge and choose, you are an automaton, right--which is predestination, no?
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If Satan is Evil, why did one third of the Angels of heaven take his side in the fight against the Archangel Michael.

That is a vast number, he must of had something going they agreed with.

He was Lucifer, the most beautiful and greatest of all the Angels, he sat besides God, yet God failed to notice this Evil.

Surely he did not along with the other one third become Evil overnight.
I do not appreciate such a context-free and annoying thread. Next time you start a thread, provide context instead of trying to tick off as many people as possible. State what you are talking about and who you expect to answer.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
If Satan is Evil, why did one third of the Angels of heaven take his side in the fight against the Archangel Michael.

That is a vast number, he must of had something going they agreed with.

He was Lucifer, the most beautiful and greatest of all the Angels, he sat besides God, yet God failed to notice this Evil.

Surely he did not along with the other one third become Evil overnight.
This is only from Christian POV.

The Jews have different view of Satan. For Jews there were no rebellion or war in heaven, and Satan was an agent or minion of God, who did god's bidding. Satan was never against God, but work for God, according to the Tanakh (or what Christians called "New Testament"). Satan does not equal to the devil or to lucifer.

The adversary as the name mean, referring to being adversary to men, not to God, because it was Satan duty to test men's faith.

The war between Satan and Michael only appeared in Revelation, a Christian book.

And there no Lucifer anywhere except in the Latin translation - the vulgate bible - and in some English translations, like the King James Version (KJV). Lucifer was meant to be translation to the Hebrew word for morning star - helel. And the morning star was so be the metaphor for the Babylonian king, which had nothing to do with Satan. It is supposed to be prophecy of how the king or emperor will rise in power, but how he and his kingdom will fall.

I know that some Christians do interpret the verse Isaiah 14:12 as a reference to Satan, but their interpretations are wrong, because the beginning of the prophecy, clearly identified the prophecy is about the king of Babylonia in verse 14:4
Isaiah 14:4 KJV said:
[4] That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
Any Christian who quote 14:12 and claiming the morning star to be Satan, while ignoring 14:4, clearly is not reading the whole prophecy.

Later on, the prophecy (in that same chapter) switched to prophecy about Assyrians. There were other prophecies of other kingdoms, which would be brought low or fall - Moab, Syria ( or more precisely Damascus), Tyre.

The chapter in Revelation about war in heaven, never happened in the Old Testament or the Tanakh (Hebrew scriptures).

I think you should understand that Christians and Jews don't always agree on with each other interpretations of the Hebrew bible (OT), and Jews don't accept Jesus and the New Testament at all.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
I'm sure I could answer that question if I only understood what you're trying to get at. Could you be a little more specific in the way you put that? "What do I make of it?" I'm just not sure what it is you're asking.
Can you have free-will without the ability to judge good and evil and choose the good over the evil? Without the ability to judge and choose, you are an automaton, right--which is predestination, no?
If this question makes you feel uncomfortable, you don't have to answer. I'm just joyful that we both agree with free-will and becoming individuals, rejecting predestination, and rejecting the notion of being stuck in a situation with no way out. :)
 
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