Is Satan really evil

[Katzpur]

Can you have free-will without the ability to judge good and evil and choose the good over the evil? Without the ability to judge and choose, you are an automaton, right--which is predestination, no?

If this question makes you feel uncomfortable, you don't have to answer. I'm just joyful that we both agree with free-will and becoming individuals, rejecting predestination, and rejecting the notion of being stuck in a situation with no way out.

No, I'm at all uncomfortable answering it. I'm still not 100% sure I'm understanding your question. But here are my thoughts...

I understand sin as the deliberate and willful violation of a religious law or moral principle. It's impossible to sin without a knowledge of good and evil. Therefore, I don't believe that Adam and Eve sinned when they ate the forbidden fruit. After all, Eve didn't have the "knowledge of good and evil" when Satan offered her the fruit, and Adam didn't have it when she offered it to him. They only had that knowledge as a result of eating the fruit. Yes, there were consequences for them having eaten it, because they were told not to, but I don't see them as wicked or evil at all. They were simply very naive and succumbed to a very tempting promise from a very convincing individual. Now, once they'd eaten the fruit, they did have a knowledge of good and evil. After that, their choices to do what they knew was wrong would have been seen differently by God.

P.S. I like you. You seem like a very nice person.

 

[outhouse]

Could you maybe post a sentence that makes sense?

The educated understand it well enough

The book you quoted is worthless for this discussion.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

Playing is some ones uneducated imagination is helpful how?

Wow. e.e. cummings on RF.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Satan is not Lucifer. That is cultural folklore that developed over the centuries, especially thanks to Milton's Paradise Lost. Lucifer was not viewed as a negative thing in the earlier centuries of Christianity. There were bishops and Saints named Lucifer. Those who carry the candles at Mass are traditionally called lucifers. In the Bible, Satan is only described in terms of spiritual darkness, as a dragon, a thief, a tempter, a devourer of souls, etc. Christ is actually more like the Luciferian idea of Lucifer since He is associated with Light, the Sun, spiritual ascendance and even called Himself the "bright Morning Star" in the Book of Revelation. Satan is regarded as having power over this worldly realm, since he tempted Christ with worldly power and ambition. In Gnostic terms, Satan is the chief ruler (archon) of this flawed and malevolent reality.

 

[BSM1]

The educated understand it well enough

The book you quoted is worthless for this discussion.

Provide proof for your source then.

 

[EtuMalku]

Satan is not Lucifer. That is cultural folklore that developed over the centuries, especially thanks to Milton's Paradise Lost. Lucifer was not viewed as a negative thing in the earlier centuries of Christianity. There were bishops and Saints named Lucifer. Those who carry the candles at Mass are traditionally called lucifers. In the Bible, Satan is only described in terms of spiritual darkness, as a dragon, a thief, a tempter, a devourer of souls, etc. Christ is actually more like the Luciferian idea of Lucifer since He is associated with Light, the Sun, spiritual ascendance and even called Himself the "bright Morning Star" in the Book of Revelation. Satan is regarded as having power over this worldly realm, since he tempted Christ with worldly power and ambition. In Gnostic terms, Satan is the chief ruler (archon) of this flawed and malevolent reality.

Couldn't have said it better myself . . . oh wait, I already did

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/is-satan-really-evil.182559/page-2#post-4543036

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Couldn't have said it better myself . . . oh wait, I already did

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/is-satan-really-evil.182559/page-2#post-4543036

I saw.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Satan is a liar and the vfather of liars!
◄ John 10:10 ►

Jesus says==The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Jesus says that, but having read the bible, I fail to see any instance of it.

ALL of God's Word is God inspired(God breathed) eternal living Word!!!

If that were the case, God would be smart enough to show a scene where Satan clearly lies. Since there is no such scene, that makes SOMEONE a liar, but not Satan ...

Demons called Jesus a messiah or whatever, right? Son of God? Were they lying?

I simply wish to know how people can view one as pure evil, after he held such a high position in heaven.

And why Angels would follow him if he was evil, one third is a great deal.

Are Angels ignorant, and how did Angels choose to follow him when they have no free will.

And if Heaven is paradise ruled well by God, how did this rebellion even HAPPEN?

Angels and man have free will and are not robots anyone can choose good or evil.

Adam was formed from dirt, essentially making him a golem, which is a dirt robot in Jewish lore.

I was of the opinion the Bible claimed men have free will, Angels do not.

Then Satan could not rebel, could he?

yes!! God will very soon defeat satan and all evil for all eternity.The *Devil had caused them to believe him. He had told them what is not true. So God threw the *Devil into that same lake of fire and *sulphur. It was that same lake where the *Lord had already thrown the strange animal and the false *prophet. The fire there will cause them a lot of pain and trouble all day and all night. It will never finish. Revelation 20

God's had quite awhile to defeat Satan. Is God powerless to just shut him up?

 

[outhouse]

Provide proof for your source then.

Its a worthless book and it has no value in history or science.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book

The Urantia Book has been enjoyed by some as a form of science fiction, historical fiction or fantasy.


The Urantia Book, writes that it is "highly imaginative" and that the "cosmology outrivals in fantasy the cosmology of any science-fiction work known to me

• The described formation of the solar system is consistent with the Chamberlin-Moulton planetesimal hypothesis,[103] which though popular in the early part of the 20th century, was discarded by the 1940s after major flaws were noted.[104] The currently accepted scientific explanation for the origin of the solar system is based on the nebular hypothesis.[103]

• According to the book's descriptions, the universe is hundreds of billions of years old and periodically expands and contracts — "respires" — at 2-billion-year intervals. Recent observations suggest that the true age of the universe is approximately 13.7 billion years.[105] The book does not support the big bang theory.[106]

• A fundamental particle called an "ultimaton" is proposed, with an electron being composed of 100 ultimatons. The particle is not known to be described anywhere else and the concept is not supported by modern particle physics.[107]

• The Andromeda Galaxy is claimed to be "almost one million" light years away, repeating the understandings of the 1920s,[108] but the galaxy is now understood to be 2.5 million light years away.

• The book repeats the mistaken idea that planets close to a sun will gradually spin slower until one hemisphere is left always turned to the sun due to tidal locking, citing Mercury as an example. Scientists at the time of the book's origin thought one side of Mercury always faced the sun, just as one side of the Moon always faces the Earth. In 1965, radio astronomers discovered however that Mercury rotates fast enough for all sides to see exposure to the sun.[106] Scientists further established that Mercury is locked in this spin rate in a stable resonance of 3 spins for every 2 orbits, and it is not slowing and so will never have one side left always turned to the sun.[109]

• Some species are said to have evolved suddenly from single mutations without transitional species.[110] The theory originated with Dutch botanist Hugo De Vries but was short-lived and is not now supported.[111]

• The book erroneously says that a solar eclipse was predicted in 1808 by the Native American prophet Tenskwatawa. The eclipse actually was predicted in late April 1806 and occurred on June 16, 1806.[112] In 2009, Urantia Foundation acknowledged the error and revised the book.[c]

• Controversial statements about human races can be found in the book.[114] Gardner believes that William S. Sadler, who wrote some eugenicist works, had a hand in editing or writing the book, and that this is how the ideas were included.[115]

 

[Keithrcpick.]

Lucifer was said as to be a beautiful creation, But His Sin Was .... of all things.... "Vanity" which is Something that Us Humans Also have Plenty of and often glamorously and blatantly display. So didn't that story say that Lucifer ... now Satan... and the remaining 1/3 followers were sent down to some planet or place ?? anyway We Human Are Vanity personified. And Vanity IS the ROOT of ALL EVIL. I Fear Not the Dark Places, But the Vanity of those Humans Who Lurk There.

 

[s13ep]

Satan is the Clown.
Lucifer is the Puppeteer.
Jesus is the Jester.
God is the Mystic.

They are all equal.

 

[Machavelle]

I apologise to those who get offended by my questions, my point is not to tick off as many people as possible as a staff member assumed.

My agenda is not hidden, it is to learn, and thanks to many posters I have, questions will always upset some, rejecting certain things in a debate certainly will.

We cannot and will not all agree on everything or anything ever, the idea is to learn, even if it's from a single post in the entire thread then you have gained much from the time.

 

[Machavelle]

I also reject much in the Tipitaka

 

[EtuMalku]

Lucifer was said as to be a beautiful creation, But His Sin Was .... of all things.... "Vanity" which is Something that Us Humans Also have Plenty of and often glamorously and blatantly display. So didn't that story say that Lucifer ... now Satan... and the remaining 1/3 followers were sent down to some planet or place ?? anyway We Human Are Vanity personified. And Vanity IS the ROOT of ALL EVIL. I Fear Not the Dark Places, But the Vanity of those Humans Who Lurk There.

Where does it say this?

 

[Ralphg]

Satan is the Clown.
Lucifer is the Puppeteer.
Jesus is the Jester.
God is the Mystic.

They are all equal.

Since you are obviously making a distinction between them (you say there are 4 and you even gave them all 'names') on that 'level' they aren't equals anymore (they are only equal when 'working as 1').
The 'level' you are now (4 as 1) is known by 'All' as follows:

Clown and Mystic 'rule' the 'spiritual world':
At 'home' (or in the 'woods') the Mystic creates an entity which starts to wander around. It enters the arena inside the circusttent and 'walks' in front of the Clown. The Clown is doing his tricks with the 'sticks' in front off him and accidentely picks up the entity. The clowns nail scrapes of a tiny bit of the entity and with that the entities duality (or soul) is created. The clown notices the 'stick' he picked up is in reality an entity and after examening it carefully sends it on it's the path towards where it is supposed to be.

Lucifer and Jesus 'rule' the 'earthly world'
After leaving the circustent and later on 'the Village' altogether. Lucifer and Jesus (still as 1) 'pick up' the entity and 'escort' it toward the place it's supposed to be. Somewhere along the way Lucifer and Jesus split in their respectively entities and start playing 'the role' we all know them to play. Lucifer pulls on 'the strings' during the time the entity is living on Earth (and 'fights' the 'free will' it has given by the God) and Jesus makes sure to follow the entity every step of the way to make sure he can convince 'the Judge' (Satan) the entity is allowed to go back to 'Heaven' (the Village) again.

 

[Keithrcpick.]

Where does it say this?

Old Jewish Torah and some other reference, You look for them, homework for ya.

 

[EtuMalku]

Sorry, the word Lucifer never existed in Hebrew thus never mentioned any Fallen Angel named Lucifer ... Feel free to show me your evidence.

All these associations are due to Milton's Paradise they are fictional / creative associations.

 

[viole]

Angels and man have free will and are not robots anyone can choose good or evil.

Why the Fall started with man sinning and not with angels sinning?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Yoshua]

If Satan is Evil, why did one third of the Angels of heaven take his side in the fight against the Archangel Michael.

That is a vast number, he must of had something going they agreed with.

He was Lucifer, the most beautiful and greatest of all the Angels, he sat besides God, yet God failed to notice this Evil.

Surely he did not along with the other one third become Evil overnight.

Hi Mach,

Angels are created with free-will same as human who has free-will. If God created human and angels like puppets, what do you think how angels and human will act??

Therefore, God is still all-knowing God, yet we cannot comprehend God's mind and we are truly fall short in God's eyes.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

I was of the opinion the Bible claimed men have free will, Angels do not.

Hi Mach,

Having said that would mean God is the source of evil and He intentionally allow angels to rebel God. I believed this is wrong and inconsistent with God's nature as holy and righteous. God can't be evil.

Thanks