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Is Science The Top Reason People Abandon Spiritual Pursuits?

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Eli G said:
Science has never been able to explain why the process of cell renewal slows down over time leading to old age and death.
First, science does have some good hypotheses. 2nd: So what? Why would not understanding the mechanism of a phenomenon justify inventing a fantasy "explanation".
Scientists have also not been able to discover whether there really are invisible spirits that interact with the visible physical environment.
So we can reasonably dismiss spirits as a workable hypothesis.
They also do not know how life originated, or where the DNA information came from in the first place.
Yes, they do. The details remain to be discovered but we have strong, well-evidenced hypotheses.
Scientists do not know why the visible physical Universe came into being, or why it happened when it did and not before. They also cannot know what was there before that time.
Again, So? There are lots of things not known. That doesn't justify inventing and latching on to fantasy stories.
"Before time?" Did time exist before it was created with the rest of the known universe?
Scientists do not know whether living beings that have died can be recovered or not, because although they may have some notion of how we are physically organized, they cannot rationalize how our consciousness works.
Huh? "recovering" those that have died? What does that mean?
"Consciousness" -- ???? What's your point?
Scientists do not know how human behavior can be controlled. Although everyone is against violence, it would be great if there were some way to eradicate it completely from human societies.
We do know, and have been utilizing, various forms of control for a million years.
As for altering individual brains to eliminate violence; since the questionable results of the crude, lobotomy movement of the '40s and '50s, surgical intervention has been a political third rail. Research has stagnated.
Scientists do not know many things. And it seems that certain things will never be known, because as time passes, some truths become more and more distant from our reach, either in time from the past or in the ever-expanding outer space
Truths have been discovered, and at an accelerating rate, for a long time. We understand the world better every year, but what we're discovering does not point to any intent, planning or conscious creator.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hockeycowboy said:
Explain what things? Like OOL?
Science has no idea how life originated through natural, mindless mechanisms/forces!
And many aspects attributed to evolution, remain highly debatable and lack consensus among scientists. (Have you read Gerd Müller’s “Explanatory Deficits of the MS”?)
Science does understand several mechanisms by which life originated, and details are still emerging. But whether any of these is the exact, four billion years old mechanism that led to today's biodiversity has not been determined. Nevertheless, none of these rely on any conscious planning or intent, nor does any 'creation' narrative include any mechanism. They're just unevidenced assertions of conscious agency.

Evolution is an accepted, easily observable, well evidenced phenomenon. It's major mechanisms are well known and universally accepted.
Müller is a biological maverick. He does not deny evolution, but he does concentrate on alternative, epigenetic and non-genetic mechanisms. His hypotheses are fringe, and not generally accepted in the biologic community.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It’s a part of peoples life like a lot of things. Spiritual paths lead people to all kinds of discoveries about oneself, about existence and all kinds of good qualities and things.
...ad all kinds of delusions and anti-social aberrations.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What do you think is the top reason people leave religion and spiritual paths? I think it’s science. However, I don’t think science is intentionally trying to lead people away from these things. I think it’s just happening. The only other reason I can think of would be killing in the name of religion. Are there more you can think of?
As I understand it, the great majority of cultures around the world, now and in known history, have had an origin myth or collection of myths to account for how come the world is like it is and we're all in it, including origins of the earth, its features like mountains and oceans, the weather, and so on.

So through pre-scientific eyes it would seem likely that powerful human-like agencies created these things. Tribal identity included a common language and customs and stories and heroes and folk-histories, as well as territory. Knowing these stories and recognizing their divinities also gave the tribe a manner of coping with threat, risk and adversity by petitioning these agencies for aid, and creating the prestigious caste of witch-doctors and priests.

What has been happening since the Enlightenment, starting in the 17th century, is the spread and growing prestige of 'natural philosophy' aka science, and reasoned enquiry generally. From memory it was Gould who argued that Bishop Butler's calculation (1650) from the bible that the earth was created in 4004 BCE, was, having regard to the materials available to him and the understandings of his day, excellent science. By the end of the 18th century discoveries were placing biblical creation under assault as it became evident that the earth was much older than Ussher thought. By the 1840s Tennyson was writing poems about the stress on the old biblical understandings, and the dam really burst with Darwin's publication The Origin of Species (1859).

The educated were of course the first to have access to debates of this kind, which in the course of the 19th century wholly altered and relatively diminished the authority of the church in England, the UK, Germany, France and other European centers of learning.

But religion as a social glue was strong up to WW2, Since then we've seen the steady diminishing of society's authority figures, the elected representatives, the experts, the press, the professors and by no means least the churches. This has been due to the coming of radio, and then TV, which means you didn't have to leave home to be entertained on your own, then the mobile phone, which meant you weren't out of communication with your social connections when on the move, up to the present where information is no further away than your fingertips. And you don't need to go to church to catch up with your social peers once a week, or at all.

So the move from belief to no-need-for-belief as a social phenomenon has been steadily increasing, and at present is much further advanced in the First World although the US still lags behind Europe.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Science has never been able to explain why the process of cell renewal slows down over time leading to old age and death.

Scientists have also not been able to discover whether there really are invisible spirits that interact with the visible physical environment. They also do not know how life originated, or where the DNA information came from in the first place.

Scientists do not know why the visible physical Universe came into being, or why it happened when it did and not before. They also cannot know what was there before that time.

Scientists do not know whether living beings that have died can be recovered or not, because although they may have some notion of how we are physically organized, they cannot rationalize how our consciousness works.

Scientists do not know how human behavior can be controlled. Although everyone is against violence, it would be great if there were some way to eradicate it completely from human societies.

Scientists do not know many things. And it seems that certain things will never be known, because as time passes, some truths become more and more distant from our reach, either in time from the past or in the ever-expanding outer space.
Everything that scientists know today... there was a time in the past where you could say the same about those things....
"scientists don't know why apples fall"
"scientists don't know what the sun is"
"scientists don't know why there are tides"
"scientists don't know what causes earthquakes"
etc etc etc

Hardly an argument for anything other then "more scientific work is needed"
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
What are the specific things that make an atheist spiritual?
The problem with that question is that different people understand "spirituality" in very different ways.

I'm an atheist. I consider myself spiritual.

By that I mean that I can be moved to tears by a lovely poem or beautiful song.
I can clear my mind in some type of self-hypnotic, meditation style, drumming session.
Etc.

It means I can rise above the material things in life and just enjoy a beautiful landscape or "live in the moment" of an emotion and be content with it.

People on the other end of the spectrum, when they speak of "spirituality", they mean some kind of supernatural world where the equivalent of ghosts reside.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
@blü 2 ”So the move from belief to no-need-for-belief as a social phenomenon has been steadily increasing”

That’s sad
 

vijeno

Active Member
What do you think is the top reason people leave religion and spiritual paths?

I don't know. I'm positive that there are studies out there to answer that exact question. Maybe you could look them up, if you are so inclined?

I know that I drifted away because it dawned on me that there is no reason to believe in any gods. Took me quite a while to get to grips with that...

But I always maintained a very strong connection to religions and the "spiritual", and I would never want to give that up. All I gave up were some specific beliefs that I found to be unfounded.

I think it’s science.

How come?

However, I don’t think science is intentionally trying to lead people away from these things.

What do you mean by "science"? To me, science is just a method of testing whether claims comport with reality. Not an entity endowed with volition and intentions. So, yes, you mght be right, as far as science is the culprit, it "just happens", unavoidably. As soon as the mind-virus of the scientific method started spreading, more and more people were inclined to leave religion. Makes sense... but that doesn't mean that this is the truth - and that, by the way, is an application of the scientific method. I have an inkling, it is internally consistent, it agrees with my experience and my personal value system - but all that does not necessarily mean that it is true. To establish that, we need independent verification.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
I don't know. I'm positive that there are studies out there to answer that exact question. Maybe you could look them up, if you are so inclined?

I know that I drifted away because it dawned on me that there is no reason to believe in any gods. Took me quite a while to get to grips with that...

But I always maintained a very strong connection to religions and the "spiritual", and I would never want to give that up. All I gave up were some specific beliefs that I found to be unfounded.



How come?



What do you mean by "science"? To me, science is just a method of testing whether claims comport with reality. Not an entity endowed with volition and intentions. So, yes, you mght be right, as far as science is the culprit, it "just happens", unavoidably. As soon as the mind-virus of the scientific method started spreading, more and more people were inclined to leave religion. Makes sense... but that doesn't mean that this is the truth - and that, by the way, is an application of the scientific method. I have an inkling, it is internally consistent, it agrees with my experience and my personal value system - but all that does not necessarily mean that it is true. To establish that, we need independent verification.
Sadly, some people have no room for wisdom that comes without evidence.
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
What do you think is the top reason people leave religion and spiritual paths? I think it’s science. However, I don’t think science is intentionally trying to lead people away from these things. I think it’s just happening. The only other reason I can think of would be killing in the name of religion. Are there more you can think of?
I agree with you that some people do leave their faith when science conflicts with it. This obviously happens in those religions of their subgroups where a literal approach is taken. But is it the #1 reason? I don't know. There are a great many reasons that people leave their faith. Let me discuss them.

Many people do leave religion after grappling with questions about faith, the existence of God, or perceived contradictions in religious teachings and texts. People who leave due to scientific knowledge are part of this group, but there are plenty of other problems that can occur that have nothing to do with science. For example, Dr. Robert Sapolsky (Stanford) who grew up an Orthodox Jew, shared a pivotal insight he had at age 14. He was reflecting on how God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and couldn't help but wonder why anyone would be punished for something that was clearly beyond their control. It just made no sense to him. He walked away from the entire religion, deciding there was no God, there was no free will, and that life had no intrinsic meaning.

Many people become angry and disillusioned with the corruption, hypocrisy, scandals, or negative experiences with religious leaders or communities can lead to disillusionment and departure from religious life. I've met many ex-Catholics who left due to the sex scandals. I had a good friend who attended a Baptist church. One night as she walked to her car from choir practice, one of the choir members tried to rape her. When she took it to the board, instead of dealing with the sex offender, they blamed her. They told her if she didn't smile so much, men would not get the wrong idea.

Personal trauma, loss, illness, or abuse within a religious context, can drive people away from religion. I'm sure most of us know people who lost faith when God did not deliver them from their suffering.

Sometimes there are just shifts in societal values (e.g., on issues like gender, sexuality, or science) that conflict with traditional religious teachings may cause some to leave religion. It is very common right now for people to leave their church because it considers homosexuality to be wrong.

Some people just simply lose interest in religious practices over time. This is especially if they feel that religious life is no longer personally meaningful. They get involved with friends and parties and work and raising the kids, and religion just moves further and further away.

For others, leaving religion can be a step toward personal autonomy. They seek to define their own moral and ethical framework without the guidance of religious authorities. This might be the person who attends a Christian church but just doesn't feel that Jesus was God and begins forming their own unique understandings. Or it can be the person who is drawn to studying many religious traditions, and ends up having to evaluate conflicting religious claims. It might be a woman who no longer accepts her church's teaching on gender roles, and prefers to think things out on her own rather than just being given bible verses and listening to her pastor's sermons. You get the idea.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@blü 2 ”So the move from belief to no-need-for-belief as a social phenomenon has been steadily increasing”

That’s sad
Yes, I guess every generation sees changes that it wishes hadn't happened.

With this particular example I'm not sad, but I understand what you say.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
But liberating to many who were brought up in controlling environments. Especially when religion was used as a method of control.
Sadly, many people have misunderstood religion and its intended purpose.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Including many of the most significant proponents.

Have you more knowledge than any others?
Knowledge? I was raised in a Christian household, but it wasn’t a controlling environment as the one as you suggested some are in, so I guess I do have more knowledge as to what religion is about than they.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Sadly, many people have misunderstood religion and its intended purpose.
Well for those of us who were raised in more varied households, can you enlighten us to religions intended purpose. I have some understanding from the half dozen I have been exposed to so maybe I can understand.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Well for those of us who were raised in more varied households, can you enlighten us to religions intended purpose. I have some understanding from the half dozen I have been exposed to so maybe I can understand.
I think you know
 
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