Is the Crucifix blasphemous?

[spacemonkey]

I guess the fact that his mother was a full fledge catholic had nothing to do with it. Think what you want

Where do you get that info? Everything I've ever seen or read on the topic says that Constantine converted to Christianity due to a dream/sign (accounts differ hear) prior to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Milvian_Bridge. I have never seen his mother mentioned, I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am pretty sure that Constantine was a solar worshipper prior to that event and wasn't baptized untill he was on his deathbed for fear of offending the pagan sun god.

 

[spacemonkey]

It is commonly stated, although only by Christian sources, that on the evening of October 27, with the armies preparing for battle, Constantine, alone, just as he had publicly announced he saw Apollo two years before, reportedly had a vision as he looked toward the setting sun; although Eusebius of Caesarea records the event as occurring when Maxentius' army was still in Northern Italy. At any rate, a cross appeared emblazoned on the sun, and maybe the Greek letters XP ("Chi-Rho", the first two letters of "Christ") intertwined with it; and Constantine either saw or heard the Greek phrase "Εν Τουτω Νικα", often rendered in Latin as In Hoc Signo Vinces — With this sign, you shall conquer. Constantine, who was a pagan at the time, is said to have put the symbol (the labarum) on his soldiers' shields.

from the link in my last post

 

[Quiddity]

Where do you get that info? Everything I've ever seen or read on the topic says that Constantine converted to Christianity due to a dream/sign (accounts differ hear) prior to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Milvian_Bridge. I have never seen his mother mentioned, I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am pretty sure that Constantine was a solar worshipper prior to that event and wasn't baptized untill he was on his deathbed for fear of offending the pagan sun god.

If I remember correctly I got it from the History Channel. But this is gettting off topic.

~Victor

 

[almifkhar]

having the crucifix would be blasphemous and is idol worship

i too grew up roman cathloic and when in mass, the crucifix and idols of saints and mary and the like were everywhere. when we pray, especially in a church that has idols everywhere it is the same as idol worship.

i understand that roman cathloics believe jesus is one and the same as god, but remember no idol worship is allowed according to the laws moses brought down. to do such a thing would be like smacking god in the face and is blasphemous.

saying hail mary's and making special prayers to the saints is also blasphemous for they are not god therefore there is no need to make anykind of prayer to them. all of this in essence is blasphemous and is polythestic which is not what christanity is suspose to be about.

the laws of moses makes is very clear.

 

[almifkhar]

i forgot to add before victor decides to slam me, praying to and in front of idols is worship pure and simple.

 

[Quiddity]

having the crucifix would be blasphemous and is idol worship

i too grew up roman cathloic and when in mass, the crucifix and idols of saints and mary and the like were everywhere. when we pray, especially in a church that has idols everywhere it is the same as idol worship.

i understand that roman cathloics believe jesus is one and the same as god, but remember no idol worship is allowed according to the laws moses brought down. to do such a thing would be like smacking god in the face and is blasphemous.

saying hail mary's and making special prayers to the saints is also blasphemous for they are not god therefore there is no need to make anykind of prayer to them. all of this in essence is blasphemous and is polythestic which is not what christanity is suspose to be about.

the laws of moses makes is very clear.

I'm guessing you didn't even go to any links I provided. Oh well...

 

[Quiddity]

i forgot to add before victor decides to slam me, praying to and in front of idols is worship pure and simple.

Then it is obvious that our definition of worship is different.

~Victor

 

[almifkhar]

victor,
prayer is a part of worship right? praying in front of, at the feet of idols is worship no matter how you slice it.

you are right i did not read your links. i didn't have to. i grew up strict cathloic and had a uncle who was (has passed on) a monk down in kentucky at the same monistery as thomas meriman (sorry this spelling is wrong i think), an uncle i spoke to alot.

besides we must consider how the church killed many a pagan for doing the excat same thing. only difference was the way they practiced and the names of their gods.

 

[Quiddity]

victor,
prayer is a part of worship right? praying in front of, at the feet of idols is worship no matter how you slice it.

I disagree. I think people can be kneeling in front of whatever and still direct it too all mighty God.

you are right i did not read your links. i didn't have to. i grew up strict cathloic and had a uncle who was (has passed on) a monk down in kentucky at the same monistery as thomas meriman (sorry this spelling is wrong i think), an uncle i spoke to alot.

I'm assuming you think this makes you an expert?

besides we must consider how the church killed many a pagan for doing the excat same thing. only difference was the way they practiced and the names of their gods.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. Got a link?

~Victor

 

[joeboonda]

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
--- Exodus, 20:4. KJV. Italics mine.

Correct, and the next verse says not to bow down to them or serve them. It is saying God wants us to worship him, not images of animals or stars, or whatever. To have a symol of what you believe in is ok, worshiping it is not. I have crosses, and angels, and things like that, to remind me that God is watching out for me and of what he did for me, but I do not pray to them or worship them, I worship God only. Some non-catholic christians do not like the fact that on the crucifix, it has Christ still on the cross and feel like it symbolizes an on-going sacrifice, just like they feel the doctrine of transubsantiation, which I dont believe in, where the wafer and wine become christs actual body and blood when taken, represent this idea too. I don't think most catholics think it is re-sacrificing him over and over, but some folk take it that way. I like the cross w/o Christ on it, as a symbol to remember what he did, as he is alive in heaven, and the communion as symbolic, to remember what he did too. I try not to make a big deal of it, I do make a deal of praying to or bowing to Mary, as I feel that is wrong, but that is a different topic. Symbols of your faith are fine, worshipping them is not. Peace.

 

[joeboonda]

Wouldn't changing the sabbath to Sunday be considered sin?

Complicated subject, but no. In the Bible one can see a progression of different ages in which God deals slightly differently with mankind in some ways. We can group them as: the ages of: Innocence, Human Government, Promise, Law, Church, Kingdom, Eternity. I will not go into detail on all of them, but with each new age, God had signs, wonders, or miracles, something supernatural occur to show this is a new age. When Christ rose on Sunday, freeing us from sin and death, and the burdensome yoke of the law, it was one of those radical changes, from the age of the Law, to the age of Grace, or the Church Age. Many Jewish Christians were confused and tried to make the Gentile believers go back under old laws meant for Israel to separate them as God's chosen people through whom the Messiah, or Saviour, Jesus would come. It is thoroughly explained in the NT, stronger christians saw that Christ paid for our sins, that he ushered in a higher law of love, and although certain of the laws were repeated in the NT for gentiles too, some things changed. God can do that. This will get too long if I try to explain more, peace.

 

[Valjean]

Complicated subject, but no. In the Bible one can see a progression of different ages in which God deals slightly differently with mankind in some ways. We can group them as: the ages of: Innocence, Human Government, Promise, Law, Church, Kingdom, Eternity. I will not go into detail on all of them, but with each new age, God had signs, wonders, or miracles, something supernatural occur to show this is a new age. When Christ rose on Sunday, freeing us from sin and death, and the burdensome yoke of the law, it was one of those radical changes, from the age of the Law, to the age of Grace, or the Church Age. Many Jewish Christians were confused and tried to make the Gentile believers go back under old laws meant for Israel to separate them as God's chosen people through whom the Messiah, or Saviour, Jesus would come. It is thoroughly explained in the NT, stronger christians saw that Christ paid for our sins, that he ushered in a higher law of love, and although certain of the laws were repeated in the NT for gentiles too, some things changed. God can do that. This will get too long if I try to explain more, peace.

This is a very Baha'i viewpoint, joeboonda. Have you read any of their writings?

 

[almifkhar]

victor
never said i was an expert, but i did grow up in the chruch and know enough to know that reciting a hail mary is not directed to god. blasphemous

here lets do something i really don't like to do, i will quote it from the holy bible (idol worship)
exodus 20
"you shall not have no other gods before me."
"you shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. you shall not bow down to them or worship them; for i, the lord your god, am a jealous god, punishing the children for the sin of their fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to the thousands who love me and keep my comandments."
leviticus19
"do not turn to idols or make gods of cast metal for yourselves. i am the lord your god."
deuteronomy 4:15
"you saw no form of any kind the day the lord spoke to you at horeb out of the fire. therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, and image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the water below. and when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars- all the heavenly array-do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the lord your god has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."

like i said before the laws of moses make this issue very clear.

what don't you have any idea of? the atrocities of the church are well documented and are common knowledge. pope john paul 2 himself said these things did infact happen. why not, i guess i will explain it to you anyways

when the spaniards came to the americas (roman cathloics by the way), they checked out what the local populations were doing and what they had. when they discovered they had gold and knowledge in abundance, they then when on a murdous spree and destroyed their holy temples, shrines, and books. their justification for this, because they were heathen pagans who did not have jesus in their hearts. yet all the while these same spaniards were doing the excat same thing when they prayed. saying hail mary's, praying before the crucifix, making prayers to the saints and infront of the idols they made of these saints, jesus (god so they say), and mary. the difference between the native population and the spaniards spirituality was this
1. different name for god, gods
2. practice and ritual
what was the same
1. idols
2. prayer infront and to these idols
3. prayers directed to other gods, angels, saints and not directed directly to the supreme great spirit, i.e. god himself.

by the way worship and prayer go hand in hand.

 

[joeboonda]

This is a very Baha'i viewpoint, joeboonda. Have you read any of their writings?

No I haven't read much Baha'i writings, just their posts. I like some of their teaching, however, I believe the progressive revelation of God does culminate in Jesus Christ and the good news that salvation is free, thus freeing us from worrying whether we have done enough or are good enough. I disagree with them that there are many messiahs or ways to God. Although I will say that one will not be held accountable for that which he has not heard. If one never hears the gospel of Jesus, one will not be held accountable for rejecting it. I trust God will deal rightly and fairly with all men, according to the light they have been given and how they respond to it.

 

[michel]

One of the earliest contradictions I noticed growing up as a Catholic child was that of the Crucifix. One of the Ten Commandments, they would teach me in Sunday School , forbid the worshipping of "graven images". Then you would go into the main hall and behind the alter, loe and behold, would be a 9 foot tall statue of Jesus on the Cross, not to mention statues of Mary or other Saints. So I have to ask, wouldn't the Crucifix (not just a cross, but Jesus on the cross) and the saintly statues be considered "graven images"?

You said it yourself;

One of the Ten Commandments, they would teach me in Sunday School , forbid the worshipping of "graven images

Graven images are not to be worshiped. That is what is a sin. Having a graven image to remind us occasionly is not wrong, if seeing it makes us pray to God.

 

[Ernestine]

The cross is a pagan symbol, not a Christian symbol. The cross was venerated by Egypt & Syria and held in honor by Buddhists. The cross originated in ancient Chaldea and was used for the symbol of the god, Tammuz (Tau for "T"). Jesus was not put to death on a cross. Acts 5:30 and 10:39 indicates that Jesus died on a "stauros". Homer the ancient Greek poet used the word stauros to represent an ordinary pole, stake or single piece of timber. By the 3rd century AD pagans were received into the churches and allowed to retain their pagan signs and symbols, the cross of which was one. Having adoration for a cross or any religious image is idolatry which is forbidden by God.

 

[joeboonda]

The cross is a pagan symbol, not a Christian symbol. The cross was venerated by Egypt & Syria and held in honor by Buddhists. The cross originated in ancient Chaldea and was used for the symbol of the god, Tammuz (Tau for "T"). Jesus was not put to death on a cross. Acts 5:30 and 10:39 indicates that Jesus died on a "stauros". Homer the ancient Greek poet used the word stauros to represent an ordinary pole, stake or single piece of timber. By the 3rd century AD pagans were received into the churches and allowed to retain their pagan signs and symbols, the cross of which was one. Having adoration for a cross or any religious image is idolatry which is forbidden by God.

My Bible says Jesus was crucified on a cross, the word cross is used 28 times in the new testament. Jesus showed Thomas the print of the nails, plural in his hand, he died on a Roman cross, hence the word crucified. The cross you are referring to as pagan is the one with the loop in the top which is ancient a symbol of ancient baal worship.

 

[JerryL]

The cross you are referring to as pagan is the one with the loop in the top which is ancient a symbol of ancient baal worship.

The Egyptian Ankh:

The Celtic cross was a mix of the Christian cross and Celtic design sensabilities:

The symbol of Baal:

 

[joeboonda]

Yeah, the Ankh, that was it! Thanks.

 

[Aqualung]

The cross is a pagan symbol, not a Christian symbol. The cross was venerated by Egypt & Syria and held in honor by Buddhists. The cross originated in ancient Chaldea and was used for the symbol of the god, Tammuz (Tau for "T"). Jesus was not put to death on a cross. Acts 5:30 and 10:39 indicates that Jesus died on a "stauros". Homer the ancient Greek poet used the word stauros to represent an ordinary pole, stake or single piece of timber. By the 3rd century AD pagans were received into the churches and allowed to retain their pagan signs and symbols, the cross of which was one. Having adoration for a cross or any religious image is idolatry which is forbidden by God.

My Bible says Jesus was crucified on a cross, the word cross is used 28 times in the new testament. Jesus showed Thomas the print of the nails, plural in his hand, he died on a Roman cross, hence the word crucified. The cross you are referring to as pagan is the one with the loop in the top which is ancient a symbol of ancient baal worship.

As for me, I don't really think it makes that big of a difference whether he died on a cross or a pole. Romans were known for crucifying people, so a cross isn't that farfetched. Yet if it were a pole, it wouldn't change anything. Just so long as you aren't worshipping either, I think you're fine.