Is the Euro going to collapse?

[lunakilo]

That is exactly what I am saying.
Ireland had low interest rates when interest rates should have been high. Small countries like Ireland are incidental to EU fiscal planning. Our country is being laid waste by the EU.

So all this I hear about property bubble and people living of loaned money is just a lie?

The EU forced people to be silly, they forced banks to lend out too much money and forced the irish government to not impose restrictions on its banks leeding to bank bailouts leading to increesed sovereign debt?

Ireland has no economic sovereignty. We're effectively an occupied country. How could there be more centralisation for us. The economy of this coountry is being managed from Frankfurt. I was at a meeting about the withdrawal of school bus services the other night and the junior minister said exactly that - Frankfurt is calling the shots.

Where you this negative in 2007?
We are all in trouble now (some more than others) and we all have to find money which has allready been spend.

You had all the freedom to mess up or not mess up before the crises.

But you only have to do what Frankfurt say if you want their help. You could scrap the euro and do as you please, though I don't know if that will help Ireland in this situation.

And really, as far as I understand (and granted I don't really understand economy) the major problem here is all the attempts to bailout the banks. Iceland which didn't seem to be doing a lot better than all the countries which tried to save the banks leaving you and me and all the other citizens to clean up the mess.

 

[lunakilo]

No. Our entire banking system is belly up. But big European banks had invested heavily in them so they were not allowed to fail. Their losses were socialised and are now part of our national debt. My unborn grandchildren will still be paying this money back many years in the future.

Belly up but stil swimming

I think the plan here is to let the smaller banks go belly up and fall to the bottom by them selves since a small bank failing is not a national crises. Ordinary people with savings less than about 100.000 € will be bailed out by the state if the bank can't handle it, but share holders and who ever else stand to loose money will will be left with nothing.

 

[sandandfoam]

So all this I hear about property bubble and people living of loaned money is just a lie?

No. I never said that. I am saying that the property bubble and lending frenzy was a direct result of interest rates in Ireland being set at a level appropriate to Germany.

The EU forced people to be silly, they forced banks to lend out too much money and forced the irish government to not impose restrictions on its banks leeding to bank bailouts leading to increesed sovereign debt?

The EU forced the environment which is at the root of these things yes. It is now running the country and has been overtly doing so since the banking collapse.

Where you this negative in 2007?

Regarding the EU yes. I have voted against the EU at every opportunity. It is the worst thing ever foisted upon this country. It is built to advance the interests of the elite. I despise it.

We are all in trouble now (some more than others) and we all have to find money which has allready been spend.

It is immoral in the extreme that ordinary people are forces to foot the bill for the bad decisions/failed gambling of bankers.

You had all the freedom to mess up or not mess up before the crises.

I do not accept that 'we' messed up. I never made huge profits, I was never a property developer, banker or businessman.
This crisis is not of my making - why should I and my kids pay for the losses of international professional investors?

But you only have to do what Frankfurt say if you want their help. You could scrap the euro and do as you please, though I don't know if that will help Ireland in this situation.

That's exactly what I want to happen and what I believe will happen. The status quo is intent on breaking us first and I am struggling against that.
The euro is toast and I would rather our country be laid waste before it collapses. Sadly I think we will all be ruined first.

And really, as far as I understand (and granted I don't really understand economy) the major problem here is all the attempts to bailout the banks. Iceland which didn't seem to be doing a lot better than all the countries which tried to save the banks leaving you and me and all the other citizens to clean up the mess.

And who other than the EU is forcing us not to be Iceland?

 

[sandandfoam]

Belly up but stil swimming

I think the plan here is to let the smaller banks go belly up and fall to the bottom by them selves since a small bank failing is not a national crises. Ordinary people with savings less than about 100.000 € will be bailed out by the state if the bank can't handle it, but share holders and who ever else stand to loose money will will be left with nothing.

No bank in this country is allowed fail.
The government gave all Irish banks a blanket gurantee.
********

 

[Reverend Rick]

That's not the problem with the Euro.
On the contrary - money is being taken off citizens to bail out huge corporations.
This retirement thing is bull too. Retirement age here is 68 - I'll probably never be able to retire. We're still bankrupt.

From my limited vantage point, it would seem to me that Greece was letting some folks retire with lavish pensions at 50 years old on the backs of the Euro.

Your saying that it was the big companies that made all the money, but if that was true, (I'm not saying it is) why would they not have the money to pay their loans?

The bottom line here is the money went somewhere.

From my perspective, you don't get to retire but others did quite well off the system.

 

[sandandfoam]

From my limited vantage point, it would seem to me that Greece was letting some folks retire with lavish pensions at 50 years old on the backs of the Euro.

Your saying that it was the big companies that made all the money, but if that was true, (I'm not saying it is) why would they not have the money to pay their loans?

The bottom line here is the money went somewhere.

From my perspective, you don't get to retire but others did quite well off the system.

I suppose a huge part of the problem is that the reasons for the crisis in all the PIGS are different.
That the Euro is a political project rather than an economic one also dooms it/us I suppose.
But I'm not saying that it was big companies that made all the money I am saying that it was big companies lost all the money and that we, the European citizens are being forced to pay for their losses.
Some groups of citizens e.g.those in Ireland are getting hit much harder than others e.g. the French and Germans.

 

[lunakilo]

No bank in this country is allowed fail.
The government gave all Irish banks a blanket gurantee.
********

That sounds stupid.
Maybe you should fire your government.

Well maybe the danish government will get scared to and save the small banks as well, only time will tell. It sounds stupid to me.

 

[lunakilo]

The bottom line here is the money went somewhere.

No, money can disappear.
The sum of money in the world is not a constant.

 

[sandandfoam]

That sounds stupid.
Maybe you should fire your government.

Sounds stupid to us too.
We did fire the government. A little over a hundred days ago. They were destroyed at the polls. We got a new government with a huge majority who in the run up to the election promised that everything would be different. Now that they're in government they've rolled back on all their promises, despite in many cases written gurantees to the contrary given before the election and are now pursuing exactly the same policies as the last shower of eejits.
It certainly puts the power of the ballot box in perspective

 

[lunakilo]

It is immoral in the extreme that ordinary people are forces to foot the bill for the bad decisions/failed gambling of bankers.

You will get no argument from me there.

I do not accept that 'we' messed up. I never made huge profits, I was never a property developer, banker or businessman.
This crisis is not of my making - why should I and my kids pay for the losses of international professional investors?

No, your neighbor messed up and since you live in the same country as him you get to pay for his mistakes.
Is it fair? No.
I didn't mess up either, but my pension is gone too.

That's exactly what I want to happen and what I believe will happen. The status quo is intent on breaking us first and I am struggling against that.
The euro is toast and I would rather our country be laid waste before it collapses. Sadly I think we will all be ruined first.

Well convience you leaders to do so then, or throw them out and get new ones that will.

And who other than the EU is forcing us not to be Iceland?

The irish politicians?

 

[LuisDantas]

Is it just me, or have we reached a moment in History where free elections just don't seem to be very effective at making governments representative of the will of their people anymore?

 

[Reverend Rick]

But I'm not saying that it was big companies that made all the money I am saying that it was big companies lost all the money and that we, the European citizens are being forced to pay for their losses.

OK, now we are getting somewhere. You say it is the capitalist's fault here. If this where true capitalism, these big companies should have been allowed to fail.

It is when you blend capitalism with socialism that the trouble begins.

I say socialist bail out policies are to blame, not capitalism.

 

[lunakilo]

Sounds stupid to us too.
We did fire the government. A little over a hundred days ago. They were destroyed at the polls. We got a new government with a huge majority who in the run up to the election promised that everything would be different. Now that they're in government they've rolled back on all their promises, despite in many cases written gurantees to the contrary given before the election and are now pursuing exactly the same policies as the last shower of eejits.
It certainly puts the power of the ballot box in perspective

Hmmmm :sad:

 

[Reverend Rick]

Is it just me, or have we reached a moment in History where free elections just don't seem to be very effective at making governments representative of the will of their people anymore?

The problem as I see it is, the will of the people is divided. I realise not everyone thinks as I do. I respect that. I believe your position is that everyone should think exactly as you do.

 

[sandandfoam]

Is it just me, or have we reached a moment in History where free elections just don't seem to be very effective at making governments representative of the will of their people anymore?

No it's definitely not just you Luis

 

[LuisDantas]

The problem as I see it is, the will of the people is divided. I realise not everyone thinks as I do. I respect that. I believe your position is that everyone should think exactly as you do.

There are issues (such as slavery, responsibility for one's religious convictions and homophoby) where I make no concessions, granted.

But still, you are basically wrong. I have no problem with diversity of opinion. But I still find it a major worry that political stalemates seem to have become the norm.

 

[Panda]

Is it just me, or have we reached a moment in History where free elections just don't seem to be very effective at making governments representative of the will of their people anymore?

The problem is most people either not care or are not informed enough to make a valid decision. During elections politicians have to pander to these people to get votes, they make up policies that aren't possible. I also think a lot of people are not realistic. They want lower taxes and more money spent on public services. So many people here were protesting that they think there should have been no cuts to public sectors but would refuse to pay more taxes. Re-jigging funding can only get so far before the government needs to up taxes to pay for it all.

This is really the inherit flaw of democracy. We can't be experts in everything but we like to have opinions on everything.

 

[sandandfoam]

This is really the inherit flaw of democracy. We can't be experts in everything but we like to have opinions on everything.

I disagree.
The problem with what passes for democracy is that rule by elected elites is not rule by the people. The people do not hold power.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not sure that is a disagreement as much as a different perspective on the same thing, Stephen.

 

[Reverend Rick]

But still, you are basically wrong. I have no problem with diversity of opinion. But I still find it a major worry that political stalemates seem to have become the norm.

Luis, this is where compromise is called for. Look at it like a traffic light. We all cannot enter the intersection at the same time. Some of us have to stop while others go. We have to take turns if either of us are going to get anywhere, other wise we both crash into each other.

Politicians act like children who have not learned to share. They believe their constituents must walk lockstep with them on every issue.

Republicans need to spend less on the military.
Democrats need to spend less on entitlements.
Everyone needs to pay more taxes.

We are all in this together and it is going to take a shared sacrifice for things to get better for everyone.

When governments spend more money than they have, they are stealing from our children and grandchildren.

Every government should have to balance their budget and live within their means.

It is immoral to do otherwise.

In other words, no one is going to get their way when there is a difference of opinion.

You can take turns getting exactly what you want and exactly what you don't want or you can find middle ground that no one likes and learn to live with it.

Or...... we can divide our countries into two parts and people can vote with their feet. This reminds me of a Bible story where two women wanted the same child.