Is the Euro going to collapse?

[Revoltingest]

Capitalism is according to the dictionary I just looked up:-
The capitalists are exploiters who will do everything to retain their wealth. That includes ruining the odd coutry here and there. It has always been so.
Capitalism is about the maintenance of private wealth. The rich are screwing the not rich yet again.
The only thing good in what has happened is that it has illustrated that vast transfers of wealth across social classes are possible.
It's just that in this case it is tragic because the transfer is in the wrong direction.

This reminds me of an apocryphal quote from some recently liberated communist satellite country. When a worker was asked
by an interviewer how he felt about being exploited by capitalism, he responded that it beat being exploited by socialism.
Whatever capitalism's faults, I see no reasonable alternative.

 

[sandandfoam]

Whatever capitalism's faults, I see no reasonable alternative.

I do. It's time to dust off your copy of Marx. History has not ended.

 

[Revoltingest]

I do. It's time to dust off your copy of Marx. History has not ended.

Hmmmm....I've never seen it's successful implementation.
I suppose it depends on what one considers "successful".

 

[Reverend Rick]

Stephen, socialism is a wonderful concept if you are a small country where the average education is above average.

More people become doctors or seriously talented tradesmen. I don't mind sharing when everyone is productive and working for the common good.

It is when you have a large percentage of uneducated lazy folks who do not lift a finger to make the collective group better that the system breaks down.

Some people are satisfied with the basics and do not aspire to greatness. These folks should have a warm bed and food no matter how little they produce, but that is where I draw the line.

Let's look at your situation for a moment. You are upset with giving your resources to folks who where unsuccessful, (companies who lost money). That, my friend is the down side of socialism.

If this where a pure capitalist system, you would have not spent one dime bailing them out.

It is not capitalism when you get the reward for success but side step the consequences for failure. A system like that encourages taking foolish risks which would not have happened if there was a possibility of losing everything.

 

[sandandfoam]

Hmmmm....I've never seen it's successful implementation.
I suppose it depends on what one considers "successful".

I've never seen the successful implementation of capitalism. Socialism has the distinct advantage of not being designed to work against me.

 

[Reverend Rick]

What did they produce... bubbles?

Jobs

 

[sandandfoam]

Stephen, socialism is a wonderful concept if you are a small country where the average education is above average.

I knew you'd agree it is the best solution for Ireland!

 

[Reverend Rick]

I've never seen the successful implementation of capitalism. Socialism has the distinct advantage of not being designed to work against me.

I grew up poor. My father worked in a factory and provided for his family, but we never had the good things in life.

I am the poster boy for capitalism, and I am not screwing anyone. I have happy employees that I share the wealth with.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I knew you'd agree it is the best solution for Ireland!

It may well be. The thing is, if people from all around the world came to your country and consumed your resources without helping your country in anyway, you would be toast.

Socialism would not work in my country. Greece is an example of what America aspires to be. We all see where they are now and we are not far behind them.

 

[sandandfoam]

I grew up poor. My father worked in a factory and provided for his family, but we never had the good things in life.

I am the poster boy for capitalism, and I am not screwing anyone. I have happy employees that I share the wealth with.

Good for you. I'm not being smart - I mean it. I also believe you're not screwing anyone. There's exceptions to every rule.
HOWEVER I believe that capitalism is bad for the huge majority of people. Booms and busts, unequal and unhappy societies, economic misery like we have in Europe now - they are the price of capitalism.
I believe in equality and I believe in fairness. Capitalsim is about markets and consumers. I am interested in society and citizens.

 

[LuisDantas]

There is no substitute for actual responsibility. Capitalism does not even hope to be socially responsible, and so-called socialism (the Marxist variety) is simply unworkable if not all-out contradictory.

Until and unless we begin to plan in a more ambitious way, forgetting artificial national separations and actually acknowledging that wealth is not an inherent right, we will certainly keep creating trouble for ourselves.

 

[Reverend Rick]

There is no substitute for actual responsibility. Capitalism does not even hope to be socially responsible, and so-called socialism (the Marxist variety) is simply unworkable if not all-out contradictory.

Until and unless we begin to plan in a more ambitious way, forgetting artificial national separations and actually acknowledging that wealth is not an inherent right, we will certainly keep creating trouble for ourselves.

There is some wisdom in what you say.

The point you are missing is, having wealth should also come with responsibilities.

To much is given, much should be expected.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I am interested in society and citizens.

As am I. The thing is, if there where pure capitalism and not this hybid capitalism we have now, things would work better.

Too many people are happy not to work and receive the basics.

Too many people do not become educated or learn a trade.

 

[sandandfoam]

so-called socialism (the Marxist variety) is simply unworkable if not all-out contradictory.

I completely disagree with this part of your post. Capitalism is imploding around our ears - if you want an unworkable contradictory system look to it.

Marxist socialism is to my mind the best way out of the mess we're in.

 

[sandandfoam]

As am I. The thing is, if there where pure capitalism and not this hybid capitalism we have now, things would work better.

Too many people are happy not to work and receive the basics.

Too many people do not become educated or learn a trade.

Free markets and light touch regulation as fostered by Reagan and theat old bag Thatcher was rooted in the type of thinking you advance above.
It has led to the ruination of communities and countries.
In the 1840's Laissez-faire capitalism of a 'pure' variety was behind the Irish famine which reduced the population of the country by several million.
Gordon Geko was wrong. Greed isn't good.

 

[Revoltingest]

Until and unless we begin to plan in a more ambitious way, forgetting artificial national separations and actually acknowledging that wealth is not an inherent right, we will certainly keep creating trouble for ourselves.

Certainly, wealth is not a right in the sense that freedom of speech is, ie, you needn't do anything to have it.
But if accumulation of wealth is pretty much treated as a right.
Otherwise, you'd be giving government the power to take so much as to ruin productivity & infringe upon liberty which many of us enjoy.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Greed isn't good.

Is not the person exploiting the welfare system greedy as well?

Wanting something and giving nothing in return is greedy as well right?

 

[Reverend Rick]

I would hate to live in a world where people who work 80 hours a week and have a PHD have the exact same house, car, food as an uneducated person sitting on their butt.

 

[sandandfoam]

Is not the person exploiting the welfare system greedy as well?

Wanting something and giving nothing in return is greedy as well right?

You might be surprised how much I agree with you on this point Rick.
I was a trade union activist for most of the time I was working in factories. I used to go ape with people who took 'sickies'
We fought long and hard in the trade union movement for people to have good working conditions. Those who take advantage of such gains for selfish ends undermine workers and their representatives and I would have no truck with it.
Such behaviour warrants sanction.

I think the same answer, at least the spirit of it, also answers your second point. If not let me know and I'll go again.

 

[sandandfoam]

I would hate to live in a world where people who work 80 hours a week and have a PHD have the exact same house, car, food as an uneducated person sitting on their butt.

What about when that uneducated person is sitting on their butt in a house 20 times the value of the person working 80 hours a week because their grandad found some gold 100 years ago and conned the owner of the field it was in to sell it to him for cheap?

Most wealth is inherited not made.

This mythological hard working go get it fella is a great hide for all the lazy *** rich kids who look down their noses at the world as they scratch their butts and flick through yacht brochures.