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Is the Euro going to collapse?

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
.....that political stalemates seem to have become the norm.
The news media certainly give the impression that stalemates are the norm, but I'd argue that it's a false impression caused by giving such drama far
more coverage than consensus. I'd be happier if they cooperated less....& never entered any of the several overseas wars, never bailed out failed
businesses, never squandered hundreds of billions on stimulus, etc, etc.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Luis, this is where compromise is called for. Look at it like a traffic light. We all cannot enter the intersection at the same time. Some of us have to stop while others go. We have to take turns if either of us are going to get anywhere, other wise we both crash into each other.

Compromise is necessary or at least healthy sometimes, sure. But not always. There is such a thing as being too lenient with what turns out to be abusive demands.

You value personal economic responsibility. I am often puzzled by how little you demand of personal responsibility of faith and of political belief. It sometimes boggles my mind, it really does.

Then again, I realize I am very much the odd bird when it comes to these matters. It just turns out that I have consistently failed to see why I should act or believe any differently, or even why so many others do.



Politicians act like children who have not learned to share. They believe their constituents must walk lockstep with them on every issue.

Do they? It seems to me that politicians often (as a matter of course, even) keep watch on what the popular stances are and attempt to adjust their public image accordingly, even if it sometimes brings direct contradiction to previous stances. Sometimes that adjustment takes the form of a palatinhood of sorts against the "enemy forces", but that is still very much a result of awareness of what the common people want.

I only wish politicians - and voters even more than politicians - were not so accomodated and mindless about the true challenges ahead of us all. Politics these days are too reactive, too fear-driven, too deluded. Worst of all, they are too inconsequential and too nationalist, valuing myth over reality.


Republicans need to spend less on the military.
Democrats need to spend less on entitlements.
Everyone needs to pay more taxes.

We are all in this together and it is going to take a shared sacrifice for things to get better for everyone.

When governments spend more money than they have, they are stealing from our children and grandchildren.

Every government should have to balance their budget and live within their means.

It is immoral to do otherwise.

No argument here, except that I'm not too sure about the entitlements.



In other words, no one is going to get their way when there is a difference of opinion.

Trouble is, that simply doesn't always work in practice. There are those with opinions that are simply absurd or at least unworkable. Some are all-out immoral. There are times when one must take a stand and accept no compromises (and the consequences, of course).



You can take turns getting exactly what you want and exactly what you don't want or you can find middle ground that no one likes and learn to live with it.

Or...... we can divide our countries into two parts and people can vote with their feet. This reminds me of a Bible story where two women wanted the same child.

That is indeed sometimes a necessity, perhaps often so. People really need to feel a stronger connection to the fate of their own communities, and far as I can tell that is very much a worldwide reality. While I do favor wide and even worldwide governments, I also favor greater local authonomy and responsibility. It pains me crazy to see people routinely waiting for years and even decades for solutions to what ought to be fairly usual, solvable situations. Difference of opinion justifies only so much impasse, because impasse is in itself harmful.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The news media certainly give the impression that stalemates are the norm, but I'd argue that it's a false impression caused by giving such drama far
more coverage than consensus. I'd be happier if they cooperated less....& never entered any of the several overseas wars, never bailed out failed
businesses, never squandered hundreds of billions on stimulus, etc, etc.

You mean the politicians, I assume? Sure.

But the street-level people don't seem to quite believe that they may make a difference in their own lifes these days, and that is a shame. Particularly because that is not quite a misperception, and by rights it should be. For all the intense disapproval I have for the Tea Party, they only exist because there is a true need of rescue for that feeling of empowerment.
 

Panda

42?
Premium Member
I disagree.
The problem with what passes for democracy is that rule by elected elites is not rule by the people. The people do not hold power.

I can only really talk about my own area of expertise, power engineering, but what I find is that the general public has no clue about where electricity comes from, how it works and ways that we can continue to provide a secure supply that meets our growing demands whilst vastly reducing our carbon output. People vote for politicians who say we will do x. When there is an almost unanimous support from the experts saying no you can't do x because x will not work. The politicians know this but they continue to spout it when getting elected because the general public like it.

I really feel that most people really don't care enough except to have their moan every morning when the read the papers or watch the news. I think what we really need is a population who actually genuinely care about these issues and are willing to learn about them enough to even understand what is being said by the experts. Until we do the politicians are going to keep spouting the crap people want to hear to get elected and then ignore them because they knew all along what they were saying was ridiculous.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Difference of opinion justifies only so much impasse, because impasse is in itself harmful.
Which is why people who settle their differences in an amicable fashion avoid the serious consequences.

Being stubborn never got anyone anywhere.

A good example would be entitlements. Would it be wise to continue at a certain level until the system collapses or throttle back and have a system that is sustainable for generations?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You mean the politicians, I assume? Sure.
But the street-level people don't seem to quite believe that they may make a difference in their own lifes these days, and that is a shame. Particularly because that is not quite a misperception, and by rights it should be. For all the intense disapproval I have for the Tea Party, they only exist because there is a true need of rescue for that feeling of empowerment.
Are you saying that people don't make a difference in their own lives, or that politicians don't?
I wouldn't dismiss the Tea Party as merely being about a "feeling of empowerment".
When the country is headed in disastrous directions, there should be voices calling for a course change. Tis a legitimate political orientation.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Are you saying that people don't make a difference in their own lives, or that politicians don't?

People technically have power over their own lives, but usually don't make much use of it when it comes to politics.

Politicians, much as they usually like to maintain the status quo, do have effective power. They just aren't usually very willing to use it, or very responsible while so doing. Alas, that helps them in keeping being elected, which I find very worrisome.


I wouldn't dismiss the Tea Party as merely being about a "feeling of empowerment".

Dismiss? That is their main virtue. Not sure what you mean here.


When the country is headed in disastrous directions, there should be voices calling for a course change. Tis a legitimate political orientation.

Of course.
 

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
I can only really talk about my own area of expertise, power engineering, but what I find is that the general public has no clue about where electricity comes from, how it works and ways that we can continue to provide a secure supply that meets our growing demands whilst vastly reducing our carbon output. People vote for politicians who say we will do x. When there is an almost unanimous support from the experts saying no you can't do x because x will not work. The politicians know this but they continue to spout it when getting elected because the general public like it.

I really feel that most people really don't care enough except to have their moan every morning when the read the papers or watch the news. I think what we really need is a population who actually genuinely care about these issues and are willing to learn about them enough to even understand what is being said by the experts. Until we do the politicians are going to keep spouting the crap people want to hear to get elected and then ignore them because they knew all along what they were saying was ridiculous.

Or people in the UK could simply vote for the Labour party and make things simpler. Honestly, whatever the faults of Labour (and there are many), Labour has still been the main driving force of progressive change in Britain for the last century. Regardless of their nouveau progressive rhetoric, the Conservative party is still regressive. The Institute for Fiscal Studies calculated that Osborne's budget hits the poorest British the hardest. And the Liberal Democrats are simply sell-outs who only want power. Nick Clegg has shown that he could care less about ideology, so long as he maintains his posh position as Deputy Prime Minister.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
People technically have power over their own lives, but usually don't make much use of it when it comes to politics.
Politicians, much as they usually like to maintain the status quo, do have effective power. They just aren't usually very willing to use it, or very responsible while so doing. Alas, that helps them in keeping being elected, which I find very worrisome.
I find that politicians are rather too willing to use power.

Dismiss? That is their main virtue. Not sure what you mean here.
Your comment about Tea Partiers struck me as dismissive, ie, about how it made them feel, instead of what their agenda is.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I find that politicians are rather too willing to use power.

But to what purposes? Changes happen way too slowly, largely because politicians often choose to promote themselves over the needed changes.


Your comment about Tea Partiers struck me as dismissive, ie, about how it made them feel, instead of what their agenda is.

Still not sure what you mean. If you are saying that I don't take them seriously... well, sure, I certainly don't.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
What do you think?

Is European capitalism about to go the same way as the USSR?

I don't know, all I know is that, had there been a referendum, England would never have joined the European common market. We haven't gone into the Euro - thank goodness! The idea (in theory) was probably a good one - in execution, like many ideas, it was doomed to fail.

I feel sorry for the Germans, who have a strong economy, but who are being forced to go to everyone else's help.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
But to what purposes? Changes happen way too slowly, largely because politicians often choose to promote themselves over the needed changes.
They're too willing to use power for things I oppose, eg, more spending, more government, more wars, more give-aways.

Still not sure what you mean. If you are saying that I don't take them seriously... well, sure, I certainly don't.
Close enuf.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
OK, now we are getting somewhere. You say it is the capitalist's fault here. If this where true capitalism, these big companies should have been allowed to fail.

It is when you blend capitalism with socialism that the trouble begins.

I say socialist bail out policies are to blame, not capitalism.
I would love to hear a reply to this.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Which is why people who settle their differences in an amicable fashion avoid the serious consequences.

Being stubborn never got anyone anywhere.

A good example would be entitlements. Would it be wise to continue at a certain level until the system collapses or throttle back and have a system that is sustainable for generations?
Or this one
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
OK, now we are getting somewhere. You say it is the capitalist's fault here. If this where true capitalism, these big companies should have been allowed to fail.

It is when you blend capitalism with socialism that the trouble begins.

I say socialist bail out policies are to blame, not capitalism.

Capitalism is according to the dictionary I just looked up:-
cap·i·tal·ism

   /ˈkæp
thinsp.png
ɪ
thinsp.png
tlˌɪz
thinsp.png
əm
/ Show Spelled[kap-i-tl-iz-uh
thinsp.png
m] Show IPA
noun an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

The capitalists are exploiters who will do everything to retain their wealth. That includes ruining the odd coutry here and there. It has always been so.
Capitalism is about the maintenance of private wealth. The rich are screwing the not rich yet again.


The only thing good in what has happened is that it has illustrated that vast transfers of wealth across social classes are possible.
It's just that in this case it is tragic because the transfer is in the wrong direction.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Or this one
Ireland offers evidence against this argument.

Our limp government are trying to be the 'good boys' and are punishing us severely, in return we are being punished severely by our European overlords.

The Greeks on the other hand are putting the boot in. And they're getting better treatment as a result.
 
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