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Is the "serpent" God?

gnostic

The Lost One
Sandy whitelinger said:
Please look at the reference. First, God is not in the garden talking to Himself saying those things. Second, there is no evidence that those specific punishments happened to God.
It is not necessary to be the snake, Sandy. All God needs to do is have the snake speak for him - by giving voice to the snake. Once he tricked Eve, he easily left the serpent, so when God punish the serpent, he was just punishing the snake (remove its legs), his scapegoat, without punishing himself.

Do you want example, Sandy?

Early chapter in Acts (don't recall which chapter), where he gives the tongues to the 12 (or 11) apostles.

Did they really spoke tongues? Or did the Holy Spirit spoke for them?

Two different possibilities.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
g, I think that that adds a lot to the story that is supposition. And I don't think it was the intent of the OP.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
willamena said:
g, I think that that adds a lot to the story that is supposition.
It's not?

It is still about God being the serpent in Eden.

I have put the Genesis narrative, but people keep adding what is written in the NT in...but when I add something from NT, it is not relevant? How do you figure that?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I meant the part about "have the snake speak for him - by giving voice to the snake." That isn't a part of the story.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I developed the theory about 6 nights ago. And I am still developing it. More may come in the next few days that may change my theory again.

It is still God being the serpent, whether God is the serpent, or projecting his voice on to the serpent, or God had possessed the serpent momentarily.

Whatever is the case, it is still about God and the serpent, willamena. Why restrain the topic to just covering the OP?

There you go, I thought of another one - a "possessed" serpent.

God body jump into :monkey: the serpent, deceive Eve, then body jump out of :monkey: the serpent, before cursing the serpent thereby depriving the unfortunate snake with no legs.

I know it is silly :areyoucra theory. But if demons can possess people in the NT, why can't God possessed a serpent, so that it make talk?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
EtuMalku said:
Then we have the 'Uraeus' or the Egyptian cobra headdress which symbolized the 'Lord of Life & Death' the ultimate symbol of earthly power.

Earthly power. Do you mean "kingship"?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Darkness said:
Blasphemy! The Snake is Lord Lucifer.
cool.gif
EtuMalku said:
I believe I clearly stated that already.
Lucifer, Satan, God, Yahweh, etc, are all mythological characters to me....until proven otherwise.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Has anyone given thought to earlier post, #65, in a scenario, where God had momentarily "possessed" the serpent, in order to deceive Eve into eating the forbidden fruit? After the deception, the spirit of God left the serpent, and then punish the serpent without punishing himself. This would seem to be as likely scenario as the serpent being Satan or being "possessed" by Satan.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
It's just one of the theories. I am throwing theories around. If there is only one god, then he is both good and evil. Since Abrahamic religions doesn't allow for more than one god, and Satan is not a god. Beside I don't believe in Satan (I also don't believe in the God). Satan wasn't never named in the Genesis as the serpent. It is possible that the serpent was either God in the guise of serpent, possibly through "possession". Or possibly God gave the serpent, a voice to speak to Eve.

Do you think the serpent was Satan? Why?

Why is it not possible that the God was impersonating the serpent?

If God can appeared as a man, then the possibility is there for him to appear as the serpent, or even as Satan.
 

3.14

Well-Known Member
the stranger thing about the story is that god actualy punished them for gaining knowlege,
why would a god be so intimidated by man and a brain, if he was god he could have just removed the knowlege. or maby he relized that without ignorant people they would soon discover that he wasn't all that powerful as he claimed to be.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
This is just a little theory I have.

In Genesis, there is a serpent that talk and dupe Eve into eating the fruit that God forbidden.

Christians have equated this serpent to Satan, even today.

There is no direct link between the serpent and Satan. Satan is never named, in this episode. In fact, he (Satan) is never named in the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus and Deuteronomy), not even in his later incarnation of Devil, Lucifer, etc.

My theory is that the serpent is not Satan, but God.

I don't think God wanted to Adam and Eve to stay in the garden, and he tested them. He deliberately put the tree there, knowing that they would fail, even though he had warned Adam against eating it.

I don't think the serpent was Satan, but God.

I think you are on to something.

Years ago, in one of Alan Watts radio broadcasts, he relayed a more ancient story of Genesis than the orthodox version handed down to us. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the source of this older story, but I may have heard him say it was perhaps Persian, but definitely of Middle Eastern origin. For various reasons, I now believe this older version to be the original story before it was corrupted into the modern version we have all come to know.

In a nutshell, the story goes like this:

As in the orthodox version, God forbids Adam and Eve to eat of the 'Forbidden' Fruit. In the next scene, he 'goes away'. Here is where the story takes a different turn. God then reappears to Adam and Eve as a serpent, tempting them, to ensure that they eat of the Fruit! So why would God do such a thing? The 'Forbidden' Fruit is a symbol for Higher Consciousness. Remember that the serpent told Adam and Eve that God did not want them to eat of the Fruit because he was jealous and that they would then be able to 'see as God sees', which is just another way of describing Higher, or God Consciousness. It is the gift of divine union, which is the goal of all religious endeavor, of course. And of course, since this story is just an allegory, what it really boils down to is a way of describing the tricking and dissolution of the thinking mind and realization of one's own divine nature, which is Enlightenment itself.

So why do I think this is the original version? Let us look at both stories briefly:

In the orthodox version, man is separated from God, and driven from Paradise. The rest of the story is the long, drawn out and bloody history of mankind in his long journey back to God, but his reunion with God only occurs fully after Judgment Day, with his resurrection into the heavens. In terms of Higher Consciousness, God is hiding from himself as suffering mankind. Buddhists call this view 'the long way home'.

In the earlier version, because God intended man to partake of his gift, there was no disobedience, and hence, no original sin. On the contrary, what we have here is instant union with the divine essence. Story end. All's well that ends well. Goal of divine union achieved, with no sin, no banishment, no separation, no bloody Crucifixion required, and all the rest of it. Man has never left Paradise, because Paradise is to be found within, just as Jesus told us. "The kingdom of God is within you". That a separation occurred is but a total illusion, which sets man seeking. But man seeking is none other than the Godhead playing the cosmic game of hide and seek. Awakening and Enlightenment is the 'finding' that one has been divine all along. Think of man as a manifestation of the divine, which has forgotten his divine nature, due to the fact that the Absolute has become lost in its own creation, which is but an illusion, a maya, as the Hindus call it. In psychology, we call this immersion in the illusion, 'Identification', where one has lost track of who the person is that is playing the role he finds himself in. One has forgotten his true nature, his 'Original Mind', as the Buddhists say. 'Tas atvam asi' say the Hindus: 'Thou Art That". "There is no self or other".

In this other story, everything just 'fits' with every element falling right into place. The orthodox view seems contrived and awkward in comparison. My guess is that it was corrupted by the priests as a means of keeping their congregations terrorized to extract monies from them by promising to act as intermediaries for them, for a fee, of course.

In order to get a better picture of how this works, it is good to expose oneself to the Hindu view, that of God lost in, and pretending to be all the myriad forms of his own creation.

God is Adam and Eve and the serpent all at once, coming together in a drama
designed to awaken the Godhead to his true identity.

In the Hindu cosmogony, there is a long period (creation) in which the Godhead is asleep and dreaming all of this world of illusion (maya). Upon its destruction, he awakens, the dream disappears, and He walks in the fully awakened radiant state for a period of 4 kalpas (many, many millions of years). He then goes to sleep and the dream-cycle of creation/destruction begins anew.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
'Satan' is nothing more than man's ignorance of his true nature and his egoic projection of his own Shadow onto an imaginary personification of extreme malevolence via of his fear and superstition.

'Jesus' is the opposite egoic projection onto an imaginary idol-friend who represents Absolute Goodness, and an agent for his 'salvation' from his metaphysical anxiety over not knowing who or what he is, where he came from, or where he is going after death.

The demonization of the serpent is man's own ignorance and unfounded fears about nature.

Man is punishing himself because he misunderstood that God did not actually mean what he said; that he actually meant the exact opposite of his command. This is the view of orthodox Christianity. The mystic understands intuitively that there was no sin of disobedience; that divine union and liberation are actually the case.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
God and Satan

by Alan Watts
excerpted from: 'Myth and Ritual in Christianity'


The division of the human mind into "I" and
"me" presents the problem of self/control in such a way as to
lead to endless confusion since the human being tries to
dominate and regulate his emotions and actions, which are
concrete, with the force of an ego and will, which is purely
abstract. As a result, man is thrown into a state of conflict with
himself which can never be resolved in the terms in which it
is proposed, Good/intentioned "I" wrestles with wayward
"me" like a rider on an unbroken horse. "I keep under my
body, and bring it into subjection; lest that by any means,
when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

But this conflict between "I" and "me" is not so much
a self-consciousness as an unconsciousness; a failure to see that
the righteousness of 'I' has the same motivation as the sinful-
ness of "me", both alike being attempts to save, to continue,
myself, the illusory abstraction from memory.

This conflict is reflected in the irreconcilable war between
God and Satan, where the absolutely righteous God is, after all,
the final mask of the Devil just as the "good" motives of "I"
are a disguising of the "selfish" motives of "me". The myth
itself contains a number of strong hints as to the ultimate
identity of God and Satan, but this is the one thing to which
the theological interpretation is most resolutely opposed
because it coincides with the special blind spot of the Western
mind. For the Christian consciousness has always taken a
peculiar delight in judging and condemning, in having a
"scapegoat" upon which to vent the full fury of its indignation.
Yet this familiar psychological mechanism is easily recognized
as the "protest complex", whereby the insincerity of one's
motives is conveniently hidden by violent condemnation of
the same insincerity in others. Nothing advertizes the inner
identity of God and Satan so much as the uncompromising
enthusiasm wherewith the partisans of God do battle with
their Satanic enemies.

But the myth itself belies the theology. Reconsider the
Preface of the Cross from the Roman Missal:

"Who didst set the salvation of mankind upon the
Tree of the Cross, so that whence came death, thence also
life might rise again, so that he who by the Tree was
vanquisher might also by the Tree be vanquished,
through Christ our Lord."

The poison of evil and death comes into the world, into the
heart of the First Adam, through the Serpent on the Tree.
Healing comes through the Second Adam, Christ crucified
on the Tree of the Cross of which Christian imagery
discovers a "type" in nebushtan, the brazen serpent which
Moses erected in the wilderness so that all who looked upon it
were delivered from a plague of serpents. The process is homoeo-
pathic: similia simililws curantur; likes are healed by likes.

Let us remember, also, the myth which identifies the Wood
of the Cross with the staff or beam taken from the Tree of Eden,
so that the Cross which is medicina mundi is of the same Tree
which bore the fruit of knowledge, the poison of death.

Now the serpent and tree is a common mythological theme,
for one calls to mind not only the World Ash, Yggdrasil, of
Norse mythology, with the worm Nidhug at its roots, but
more particularly the Kundalini symbolism of Hindu Yoga.
One thinks, too, of the Aesculapian symbol of the Caduceus,
of the two serpents entwined about the rod one of poison and
the other of healing a symbol which passed into Christianity
when it was adopted for the bishop's pastoral staff in the
Eastern Churches. 2

In the symbolism of Kundalini^Yoga the "tree" is the
human spine considered as a flowering plant. At the top,
within the head, is the thousand-petalled lotus sahasrara,
emblem of the sun beneath the dome of the firmament, arche-
type of the skull, since here as in almost all mythologies man is
seen as the universe in miniature. At the root of the spinaktree,
at the sexual organs, there sleeps the serpent Kundalini
entwined about the phallus. So long as the serpent remains at
the root of the tree, asleep, man is "fallen"; that is to say, his
divine consciousness is asleep, involved in the darkness of
maya (illusion), since at this stage the divine has identified itself with the
finite world. But when the divine consciousness awakens,
Kundalini ascends the tree and passes up to the thousand'
petalled lotus in the head.

Thus the serpent has two roles, which, in Hindu mythology,
correspond to the two "movements" in the eternal play (lila) of
God: the one where God (Vishnu) sleeps, and dreams that he
is the multiplicity of individual beings, and the other where
God awakens and realizes his proper divinity. Downward
in the roots, the serpent is the divine One asleep, enchanted by
his own spell; upward in the sun-lotus, the serpent is the same
divine One disenchanted, free from the illusion that he is
divided into many "things". Therefore the dual role of the
serpent in Christian mythology might suggest the same idea
that Lucifer and Christ are two distinct operations of the
Divine, respectively the "wrath" and the love of God, the
shadow and light of the world drama. Interpreted in this
fashion, the Fall would stand for man's forgetting of his
divine nature, for involvement in the illusion of individuality.
Salvation would be the recollection (anamnesis) of his divinity,
the awakening or birth of Godhead in man.

(continued below)
 

godnotgod

Thou art That


(continued from above)

But, as one can only expect, theology will admit nothing of
this kind, since it is the product of a mentality still very much
under the spell of illusion. Yet, as a result, whole areas of
Christian dogma do not make sense, or, at least, sense only of a
very tortuous kind. If it is maintained, for example, that the
Fall of Adam involves the whole human race, this is only
because Adam Man is inclusive of each particular man.
Contrariwise, there can only be Redemption for the human
race if Christ, the Second Adam, is likewise inclusive of each
particular man if the Incarnation of God in the man Jesus is
representative of God in every man, as Adam represents
Lucifer in every man. Yet, with rare exceptions, the theologians
insist that the Godhead is incarnate in one man only the
historical Jesus. This confinement of the Incarnation to a
unique event in the historical past thus renders the myth "dead"
and ineffective for the present. For when myth is confused with
history, it ceases to apply to man's inner life. Myth is only
"revelation" so long as it is a message from heaven that is,
from the timeless and non^historical world expressing not what
was true once, but what is true always. Thus the Incarnation is
without effect or significance for human beings living today if it
is mere history; it is a "salvific truth** only if it is perennial, a
revelation of a timeless event going on within man always. 3

Still more repugnant to the theologians is the perception of
the divine in Lucifer, the realization that the two serpents are
one: Lucifer in descent and Christ in ascent. The nearest
which the Church approaches to anything of this kind is the
embarrassing passage which is sung on Holy Saturday at the
blessing of the Paschal Candle:

"O truly necessary (certe necessariutn) sin of Adam,
which the death of Christ has blotted out. O happy
fault (Ofelix culpa), which merited such and so great
a Redeemer."

With this, one might compare the words of Isaiah 45: 7,

"I am the Lord and there is none else. I form the light and create the
darkness; I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these
things."

The tragedy of Christian history is that it is a consistent
failure to draw the life from the Christian myth and unlock
its wisdom. This whole failure is epitomized in the problem
of Lucifer, who should have remained the symbol, not of
"deliberate malice", but of the necessary "dark side" of life, of
shadow revealing light by contrast, of darkness as the Light
(luci'*) Bearer (fer). He would correspond to what the Chinese
call yin as distinct from yang, the dark, negative, and feminine
aspect of life, in complementary opposition to the light,
positive, and masculine the two represented together as the
interlocked commas or fish, one black and one white, one
ascending and one descending. In the West, this same symbol
is found as the zodiacal sign of Pisces, and the two opposed
fishes are a common motif of early Christian gems Christ
himself being the ascending fish. 4

A truly problematic evil arises in human life when the
necessary dark side of existence is not accepted and "loved"
along with the light that is, when the human mind sets itself
such goals as the total retention of pleasure and the total
elimination of pain. Paradoxically, devilish behaviour is the
necessary consequence of not coming to terms with Lucifer,
of refusing to admit that life is willy-nilly a coincidence of
opposites. Thus, in the complex picture of Christian mytho-
logy, Lucifer has a double role. He is the necessary negative or
dark aspect of life, personifying the "wrath" of God the dark
angel Samma-el. He is also the Liar, the illusion of self-
consciousness and self-love, personifying the mistake, the
missing of the mark, which the human mind has made in
confusing its identity with a "self" abstracted from memory.
In both roles he is a "disguise" of God. In manifesting a
universe of relativity, the metaphysical "absolute", the unde-
fined, appears as the defined, and positive is defined in relation
to negative, life in relation to death, light in relation to darkness
God appearing as two-faced like Janus. In becoming
"enchanted" or identified with the abstract and illusory self,
that which suffers the enchantment is the ever-unknown
"ground" of the human mind the ruascb or pneuma which is
always divine in principle, and which never "really" becomes
the individual save in seeming, in dream. Thus Lucifer is God
seeming to be self-conscious, to be an ego, an individualized thing.

Both these senses of the myth have been missed by Christian
theology, so that what is now personified or symbolized by the
theological Satan is not one of the aspects of God but the very
illusion of "self", in which orthodox Christianity most
fervently believes. After all, it is not so surprising that that
which it professes to hate most enthusiastically turns out to be
identical with the ideal which it tries to love, the monstrously
righteous God. Such predicaments are the inevitable penalty
for the pursuit of a mirage, or for running after a shadow. For
the zeal with which you follow measures the speed with which
it eludes your grasp.

In sum, then, the tragedy of Christianity is the confusion
of its myth with history and fact. For this is the realm of the
abstract and the dead af the seeming self. Degraded to this
realm, Christ and Lucifer alike became images of the ego, of
the past and dead man who does not liberate but only binds.
For this predicament the myth goes on to offer its own un-"
heeded solution.
*****

footnotes:



1 The identification of Christ with the nehushfan'Serpent is based on
John 3: 14, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the
Son of Man be lifted up." Thus Christian art often employs the motif of the
serpent on the cross as an emblem of Christ. See the engraved stone from Gori's
Thes. Diptych., vol. iii, p. 160, reproduced also in Lowrie's An in the Early
Church, pi. ssa (New York, T947). Cf. Tertullian, De tiolatria, iii; also St.
Ambrose, De Spiritu Sancto, iii. 9, "Imago enim crucis aereus serpens est: qui
proprius erat typus corporis Christi: ut quicunque in cum aspiceret, non periret."


2 See British Museum, Guide to the Early Christian and Byzantine Antiquities
(London, 1903), p. 87. Possibly the crook'shapcd pastoraUtaff of the Western
Church has a similar origin, for it closely resembles the serpentine titous, or
divining-rod, shown in an Etruscan sculpture reproduced in Murray's
Dictionary of Christian Antiquities, vol. ii, p. 1566 an object which, again,
resembles the official "sceptre" or nyoi carried by Buddhist abbots in the Far
East. One must recollect the story that, as a sign of the power of God, Moses*
staff was changed into a serpent to confound the Egyptian magicians*


3 This problem will be discussed more fully when we come to the proper
part of the story. The orthodox theological explanation of how the race is saved
by the Incarnation of God in Christ is peculiarly confused, because the myth
was rationalized according to the inadequate categories of Greek philosophy.
Thus when God became man, he was held to have united himself with human
nature, but not with any human person, since Christ was human in nature, but
divine as to his person. Consequently, God has united himself with the nature
of each man, but not with the person of each man. This would make sense if
theology would go on to state that the person (ntfesb, psyche, soul) is not the real
man, but only the abstract and illusory man. But it takes the very opposite
standpoint, and insists that it is the psyche precisely which has to be saved, and
since this is that part of man's being which Christ did not assume, the salvation
of the soul remains an impossibility. Yet the Gospels do not actually propose
the salvation of the psyche. Cf.Jobn 8: 21, " Whither I go, ye cannot come'*, and
thus to ascend to heaven man must "deny hinvself" (Mark 8: 34) because "no
nun hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even
the Son of Man which is in heaven". (John 3:13.) Similarly, in Matthew 16: 25,
"Whosoever would save his psyche shall lose if; and in Luke 14: 26, "If any man
come to me, and hate not ... his own psyche also, he cannot be my disciple."

4 Serpent and fish are often mythological equivalents, being alike legless.
The Greek ixevc, by a play on the letters, suggested Christ, since each letter
would be the initial letters of the phrase IHCOYC (Jesus) XPICTOC (Christ)
YIOC (Son) eEOY (of God) CCOTHP (Saviour). But, as Austin Farrer remarks
in his Rebirth of Images, "The name ixeYC for Christ was also a play on letters,
but it would not have been made unless the result had appeared to mean
something." p. 64 n.
 
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