Is the Universe perfect or imperfect?

[Sha'irullah]

I was taking note of some videos by Hassanain Rajabali and he said one of the most truthful comments I have ever heard.

"There is no imperfection in God's creation and that which we see as imperfect is of our ignorance and not int he system itself"

Many atheists or skeptics will commonly say that theists are vain for thinking the entire universe was created for their comfort but in reality the atheist almost does the same in assuming that the theists believes the universe is perfect. The atheist will believe that the universe is only deemed perfect if our lives are comfortable and flawless.

The issue is that the universe is not perfect for them. By "them" I mean the human species collectively. The universe is perfect in creation and the fact it is literally governed by laws. It is not perfect in its inadequacy to sustain our existence without worries for us. I see it as perfect but by no means it meant for us, it is meant for everything within it. Humans are very insignificant in the universe and we offer nothing for it existence. So obviously the universe is by no means meant for us as we like to perceive.


Is the universe truly perfect or non-perfect?

 

[Awoon]

The universe is continually completing.

 

[Vouthon]

The Catholic Church teaches that creation is imperfect because it was created deliberately in a state of journeying towards a perfection not yet reached:

"...302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created "in a state of journeying" (in statu viae) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call "divine providence" the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection...


310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better.174 But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection...

314 We firmly believe that God is master of the world and of its history. But the ways of his providence are often unknown to us. Only at the end, when our partial knowledge ceases, when we see God "face to face", will we fully know the ways by which - even through the dramas of evil and sin - God has guided his creation to that definitive sabbath rest185 for which he created heaven and earth..."

- Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1992

We believe that creation find its fullness in Christ and will attain true perfection when "God is all in all" at the end of time.

So in short: no, according to my religion the universe we live in is not perfect; although it is continually in a state of progression guided by God.

 

[Willamena]

I was taking note of some videos by Hassanain Rajabali and he said one of the most truthful comments I have ever heard.

"There is no imperfection in God's creation and that which we see as imperfect is of our ignorance and not int he system itself"

That's contradictory. "That which we see" is no more or less than God's creation.

Many atheists or skeptics will commonly say that theists are vain for thinking the entire universe was created for their comfort but in reality the atheist almost does the same in assuming that the theists believes the universe is perfect. The atheist will believe that the universe is only deemed perfect if our lives are comfortable and flawless.

That's generalizing. It's more often the person who needs to seek salvation who has found themselves in an imperfect world from which they need to be saved.

The issue is that the universe is not perfect for them. By "them" I mean the human species collectively. The universe is perfect in creation and the fact it is literally governed by laws. It is not perfect in its inadequacy to sustain our existence without worries for us. I see it as perfect but by no means it meant for us, it is meant for everything within it. Humans are very insignificant in the universe and we offer nothing for it existence. So obviously the universe is by no means meant for us as we like to perceive.


Is the universe truly perfect or non-perfect?

Are we not included in "everything within it"?

I think not.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Depends on how you define perfect. I don't think there could ever be any objective criteria with which to judge such a claim, one way or the other.

I want to make a quick observation though. You stated that:

I see it as perfect but by no means it meant for us, it is meant for everything within it. Humans are very insignificant in the universe and we offer nothing for it existence. So obviously the universe is by no means meant for us as we like to perceive.

This goes against the claim of most theists who believe that humans are special in the universe, and it's highest created being. While the theory you propose could be true, this doesn't jive with what most theists believe. So they're still stuck with their dilemma.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

For anything to be "perfect" one must set up the parameters in which it needs to fill to obtain the title of "perfect". So without knowing in what context the universe could be perfect or imperfect.

 

[sonofdad]

If the universe is perfect, then I'm perfect.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

The Universe is. There is no imperfection or perfection, it goes about the way it likes to.

 

[Riverwolf]

If the universe was designed to be perfect, it's certainly a perfect shooting gallery.

If it was designed to be perfect for life, it definitely failed at that, since of the 8 planets in our system alone, only four of them are terrestrial, and of them, only three of them have atmospheres, and of them, only two have extensive atmospheres, and of them, only Earth has other conditions that are suitable for complex life. When you add all the moons and dwarf planets in our system, it looks even more empty, as the only other body that might have extensive life is Europa, and even then, it's not exactly likely to be complex (though it might be.)

 

[Willamena]

For anything to be "perfect" one must set up the parameters in which it needs to fill to obtain the title of "perfect". So without knowing in what context the universe could be perfect or imperfect.

That's easy enough. Perfect is that which matches the ontological picture. For some, it does so at the expense of the epistemological picture; for others, not so much.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

That's easy enough. Perfect is that which matches the ontological picture. For some, it does so at the expense of the epistemological picture; for others, not so much.

Even in both of these cases it can be made perfect or imperfect depending on what the desired result is. Is it perfect in the fact that it exists? yes. The title of perfection requires a very specific set of requirments.

 

[Sha'irullah]

That's contradictory. "That which we see" is no more or less than God's creation.

It's not contradictory. We can say something is not perfect because it does not suit our whims but perfection is a highly subjective word. So it still falls back to personal opinion or idealization for what "perfect" should be.

That's generalizing. It's more often the person who needs to seek salvation who has found themselves in an imperfect world from which they need to be saved.

You are actually generalizing here. Rather ironic.

Are we not included in "everything within it"?

I think not.

We are included in everything within the universe but we are not the center of it.
You are doing as I said earlier and believing the universe is designed for us and is not perfect on the accounts of its hostility towards our existence. Circular arguments are not different ones

 

[Sha'irullah]

Depends on how you define perfect. I don't think there could ever be any objective criteria with which to judge such a claim, one way or the other.

I want to make a quick observation though. You stated that:



This goes against the claim of most theists who believe that humans are special in the universe, and it's highest created being. While the theory you propose could be true, this doesn't jive with what most theists believe. So they're still stuck with their dilemma.

I am a Deist and as such most Deists do not believe humans are the center of the universe because there are more species of animals outside of our own that are more plentiful. More stars exist in the vastness of space then human beings. So obviously we are not the center of it.

 

[Sha'irullah]

If the universe is perfect, then I'm perfect.

Perfect in existence, not perfect in actions........unless you think your a prophet. Are you by the way?

 

[Sha'irullah]

If the universe was designed to be perfect, it's certainly a perfect shooting gallery.

If it was designed to be perfect for life, it definitely failed at that, since of the 8 planets in our system alone, only four of them are terrestrial, and of them, only three of them have atmospheres, and of them, only two have extensive atmospheres, and of them, only Earth has other conditions that are suitable for complex life. When you add all the moons and dwarf planets in our system, it looks even more empty, as the only other body that might have extensive life is Europa, and even then, it's not exactly likely to be complex (though it might be.)

This has been the center of my logic for years. We are outnumbered by total lifelessness that to say our feeble existence is important truly pushes the limits of what "important" means.
Last that I recall we could be wiped out by any plague or stray asteroid

 

[ignition]

Perfect is a strong word. The Universe is well-designed with the correct conditions for our existence. But perfection is something God has withheld for Himself.

 

[Willamena]

Even in both of these cases it can be made perfect or imperfect depending on what the desired result is. Is it perfect in the fact that it exists? yes. The title of perfection requires a very specific set of requirments.

But if there is a perfection to desire, then the picture of perfection supersedes any case of perfect or imperfect desired pictures.

 

[Willamena]

It's not contradictory. We can say something is not perfect because it does not suit our whims but perfection is a highly subjective word. So it still falls back to personal opinion or idealization for what "perfect" should be.

So let's agree on a term. I consider perfection to be whole and unblemished. How about you?

You are actually generalizing here. Rather ironic.

But generalizing definition rather than people, and only because it's significant.

We are included in everything within the universe but we are not the center of it.
You are doing as I said earlier and believing the universe is designed for us and is not perfect on the accounts of its hostility towards our existence. Circular arguments are not different ones

Your statement earlier excludes us from the universe.

 

[Me Myself]

Depends on who is judging it.

 

[PolyHedral]

When is purple? Why does Thursday?