Is there any evidence for the Truth of Islam ?

[Gharib]

Message to eselam: How do you decide whether or not a person is honestly searching for the truth?

i don't decide, thats where this whole issue stems from, God know what is in the peoples hearts therefore he may not guide an insincere person. there are many verses that say similar to:
"if a servant turns to me in repentance, I will forgive him/her"
"if a servant asks you about Allah, tell them he is near and answers those who call upon him"
etc

In Islamic republics, homosexuals are imprisoned or put to death. Do you approve of that?

thats not for this thread. whether i say yes or not, the thread will get turned into a discussion about homosexuality.

 

[Tbone]

Is there any evidence for the Truth of Islam ?
Peace.

In a word, no.

 

[Gharib]

But that would not necessarily mean that God would tell anyone about the future.

why not, because you say so? God tells us many things about the future.

Not at all, I would love for you to accurately state what the stock market will close at one year from today.

What predictions about the year 2013 would you like to make about anything?

i don't know the future, if i did and if you seriously thought that i do, i'm sure you'd be more interested in knowing how long you have to live.

 

[Agnostic75]

I don't decide, that's where this whole issue stems from, God knows what is in the people's hearts therefore he may not guide an insincere person.

Are you suggesting that the only people who honestly search for the truth are people who end up accepting Islam?

 

[Gharib]

In a word, no.

thats 4 words. try again.

 

[Gharib]

Are you suggesting that the only people who honestly search for the truth are people who end up accepting Islam?

i didn't say that.

 

[Agnostic75]

I don't decide, that's where this whole issue stems from, God knows what is in the people's hearts therefore he may not guide an insincere person.

Are you suggesting that the only people who honestly search for the truth are people who end up accepting Islam?

 

[fulp]

muslims believe that God has knowledge of the future and the past without limits. in your opinion is it wrong for me to say a fact about the future?

No, but what you said is inconsistent with what the Quran says on that. You say it's the choice of the individual's choice, the Quran is pretty clear it's not. It just piles on some of that "it's your fault I did this to you" nonsense, but that doesn't remove or change those other, very explicit statements.

do you find the weather channel offensive and unjust for telling you what the weather is going to be based on statistics?

But that's the thing: YOU are telling me that. Other muslims do. However, the actual weather channel -- the bleepin' book -- says something rather different.

 

[Gharib]

No, but what you said is inconsistent with what the Quran says on that. You say it's the choice of the individual's choice, the Quran is pretty clear it's not. It just piles on some of that "it's your fault I did this to you" nonsense, but that doesn't remove or change those other, very explicit statements.

show me such statements and verses.

But that's the thing: YOU are telling me that. Other muslims do. However, the actual weather channel -- the bleepin' book -- says something rather different.

i don't understand what you refer to with the first statement.

 

[YmirGF]

why not, because you say so? God tells us many things about the future.

You cannot even prove, or offer meaningful evidence, that god exists, let alone that it tells us many things about the future, Eselam.

 

[fulp]

huh, I actually found it rather quickly..

Sahih International: And if we had willed, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me will come into effect [that] "I will surely fill Hell with jinn and people all together.

Pickthall: And if We had so willed, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me concerning evildoers took effect: that I will fill hell with the jinn and mankind together.

Yusuf Ali: If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance: but the Word from Me will come true, "I will fill Hell with Jinns and men all together."

Shakir: And if We had pleased We would certainly have given to every soul its guidance, but the word (which had gone forth) from Me was just: I will certainly fill hell with the jinn and men together.

Muhammad Sarwar: Had We wanted, We could have given guidance to every soul, but My decree, that hell will be filled-up with jinn and people, has already been executed.

Mohsin Khan: And if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance, but the Word from Me took effect (about evildoers), that I will fill Hell with jinn and mankind together.

Arberry: 'If We had so willed, We could have given every soul its guidance; but now My Word is realized -- " Assuredly I shall fill Gehenna with jinn and men all together."

and before you complain, I came across this while actually reading the Quran (well, a translation). I'm not exactly a scholar of the Quran, but I didn't pick the book up to find fault in it, either. I picked it up with great hopes, and laid it down with disgust.

if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance,

But since that wasn't willed, that's not the situation. It really takes Stockholm syndrome to not see that and go on and on and on and on... about anything other than what the Quran actually SAYS!

 

[Gharib]

You cannot even prove, or offer meaningful evidence, that god exists, let alone that it tells us many things about the future, Eselam.

if thats what you believe then no matter what i say will make a difference.

 

[Meow Mix]

it's come a little out of hand, i will try to avoid making statements in such a way that cause misunderstanding between us. i must warn you it could become a very long post. lets see what happens.

I don't mean for it to get out of hand, am just curious! You know we're friends, so I don't want you to think I'm on the offensive or anything.

i will explain what is called insincere in this case. in Islam the majority agree that a rapist, if 100% guilty, must face capital punishment (death). a thief, if 100% guilty, must have his hand cut off from the wrist etc etc.

now if you are looking for the truth while maintaining that your views are totally correct (for example you do not agree to the 2 punishments above) then you will cross Islam off the list. if to you the truth is that which conforms to your desires, to your liking and thinking then thats not truth, thats just your desires, liking and thinking. so Islam could be true, i believe it is, however, if your desire something that is outside of it's boundaries (ie a lesser punishment for the rapist) then you are actually not after what is true (ie Islam and death penalty to the rapist) you are after other things outside of islam. and if a muslim desires things outside of islam then that could result in disbelief.
(note: i said 'could' it depends on the situation and example)

so after explaining that, if one is sincerely searching for the truth, however, denies as being true that which contradicts their thinking and desires, is not after the truth they are just after what conforms with them. which in turn equates to insincerity.

There is a difference between having distaste for a concept and asserting that distaste affects the truth value of a concept. It's called the fallacy of an argument from adverse consequences to say something isn't true just because a person doesn't like it.

In other words, I'm saying there are a lot better reasons to doubt that Islam is true other than not subjectively liking some of its rules. You haven't really addressed that sort of sincerity: where a person is seeking truth, yet they find evidence for Islam lacking in a legitimate (not fallacious) way.

Does Allah punish them (or not), or is it believed to be "impossible" to legitimately doubt Islam while sincerely seeking truth?

yeah it was a separate sentence with an OR in the middle. sorry for that. Islam does not teach that all non-muslims are insincere or that they all wish to cause muslims harm. there are muslims who are insincere as well as non-muslims, there are sincere muslims as well as non-muslims. there are muslims who cause harm to muslims as well as non-muslims and there are non-muslims who cause harm to muslims as well as non-muslims. etc etc.

Ok, makes more sense then

first, take into account what i have said in my first example about sincerity and insincerity.
second, people who know what is right and do what is wrong, will be held accountable because they knew what was right yet did what was wrong.
third, people will be held accountable for what wrong they did. and if they did wrong because they didn't know then,
fourth, people who do not know what is right and what is wrong will be held accountable and questioned about what prevented them from knowing what is right and what is wrong.

i know a story about a scholar who was told by someone that scholars will be held accountable for doing what is wrong while knowing what is right. and he replied saying that at least scholars will get punished once, you on the other hand will get punished twice, for doing what was wrong and for not knowing what was right. he was trying to make the people present laugh by saying it in a funny way.

i hope i have clarified my stance better. let me know if i have messed up somewhere again.

I can understand why someone might be punished for failing to know what is right through willful ignorance, but what about those who legitimately never find a rational reason to believe some moral thing?

For instance, I eat pork occasionally. I can't fathom why that would have any moral implications whatsoever. Should I be punished twice -- for doing something wrong, and for not knowing why it's wrong?

 

[Gharib]

huh, I actually found it rather quickly..

and before you complain, I came across this while actually reading the Quran (well, a translation). I'm not exactly a scholar of the Quran, but I didn't pick the book up to find fault in it, either. I picked it up with great hopes, and laid it down with disgust.

if We had willed, surely! We would have given every person his guidance,

But since that wasn't willed, that's not the situation. It really takes Stockholm syndrome to not see that and go on and on and on and on... about anything other than what the Quran actually SAYS!

i am sorry to hear you feel that way about the Qur'an after having high hopes about it.

these are the verses from the beginning of the chapter to the verse you quoted and a few more after that.

32:1 Alif, Lam, Meem.
32:2 [This is] the revelation of the Book about which there is no doubt from the Lord of the worlds.
32:3 Or do they say, "He invented it"? Rather, it is the truth from your Lord, [O Muhammad], that you may warn a people to whom no warner has come before you [so] perhaps they will be guided.
32:4 It is Allah who created the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them in six days; then He established Himself above the Throne. You have not besides Him any protector or any intercessor; so will you not be reminded?
32:5 He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count.
32:6 That is the Knower of the unseen and the witnessed, the Exalted in Might, the Merciful,
32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.
32:8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.
32:9 Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.
32:10 And they say, "When we are lost within the earth, will we indeed be [recreated] in a new creation?" Rather, they are, in [the matter of] the meeting with their Lord, disbelievers.
32:11 Say, "The angel of death will take you who has been entrusted with you. Then to your Lord you will be returned."
32:12 If you could but see when the criminals are hanging their heads before their Lord, [saying], "Our Lord, we have seen and heard, so return us [to the world]; we will work righteousness. Indeed, we are [now] certain."
32:13 And if we had willed, We could have given every soul its guidance, but the word from Me will come into effect [that] "I will surely fill Hell with jinn and people all together.
32:14 So taste [punishment] because you forgot the meeting of this, your Day; indeed, We have [accordingly] forgotten you. And taste the punishment of eternity for what you used to do."
32:15 Only those believe in Our verses who, when they are reminded by them, fall down in prostration and exalt [ Allah ] with praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
32:16 They arise from [their] beds; they supplicate their Lord in fear and aspiration, and from what We have provided them, they spend.
32:17 And no soul knows what has been hidden for them of comfort for eyes as reward for what they used to do.
32:18 Then is one who was a believer like one who was defiantly disobedient? They are not equal.
32:19 As for those who believed and did righteous deeds, for them will be the Gardens of Refuge as accommodation for what they used to do.
32:20 But as for those who defiantly disobeyed, their refuge is the Fire. Every time they wish to emerge from it, they will be returned to it while it is said to them, "Taste the punishment of the Fire which you used to deny."

verse 13, Allah has the power to make us all believe and be of one religion by force if he wanted to, he says in verse 99 of chapter 10: And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. [10:99]

the reason he doesn't do it is because that would violate his purpose of creating us, which is to willfully worship him. in other words to choose to obey him.

those verses in general speak about those who deny hell and the day of judgement (being held accountable). Allah can forcefully guide such people but because they chose to not obey him, they will then taste that which they denied.

i hope that makes sense.

 

[Meow Mix]

those verses in general speak about those who deny hell and the day of judgement (being held accountable). Allah can forcefully guide such people but because they chose to not obey him, they will then taste that which they denied.

i hope that makes sense.

It doesn't make much sense to me. I imagine that if I were a parent and I offered a child the choice to live with me and love me or to live away from me and be free of me, I certainly wouldn't say "Okay, your choice is to live with me or in this well full of napalm." That isn't a choice. I might as well force them to live with me.

And I certainly wouldn't ever -- no matter how much I threatened and requested them to stay with me -- actually throw them into a well full of napalm. Imagine listening to their squeals of pain and torment -- FOREVER. Remember, these are supposedly your children that you love.

No offense, but Allah (and other versions of the Abrahamic God) sound to me like a depraved monster. As described, I can't think of anything more infinitely evil and wicked.

 

[Agnostic75]

God tells us many things about the future.

Please state some examples of where God has foretold the future, and the claims came true.

 

[Agnostic75]

Message to eselam: In your opinion, who will God reward, and punish after they die? I am referring to such groups of people as Muslims, Christians, atheists, agnostics, and deists.

Or, do you believe that God judges people based upon what they do, not upon what they believe?

 

[McBell]

thats 4 words. try again.

Um...

last i checked "No" is only one word.

 

[McBell]

i didn't say that.

not in those exact words....

 

[garrydons]

I numbered these for easier reference. All # 1, 3, and 5 prove is that it's a piece of literary work with some historical accuracies that has been well preserved. This doesn't prove in the least that it's divine. # 2 would be interesting, if it were true. And # 4 might have some merit, if there were any actual prophecies in the Qur'an. There is nothing in the Qur'an that has any divine mark on it. It's a great literary work, and it has value in that vein, and even has some good spiritual guides, but there's no way to prove that it's from god.

If you may, I would prefer to support your findings above. Just one thing I would like to add, Yeshua (Jesus) says: "By there fruits, you will know them". Yeshua is talking here of His true followers. We may justify every religious books to be true in whatever sense but are we applying it to our daily lives? Are there contents not against to accepted norms of the society? Does this book do not promote hatred, violence and other unacceptable acts? Does this Book really teaches what is right and what is wrong? Does this Book which we believe to be true teaches to love our neighbors as ourselves as the Golden rule says?