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Is there any evidence for the Truth of Islam ?

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
I numbered these for easier reference.
1. Preservation of the Qur'an - proves #1 above
2, Scientific Facts in the Qur'an - proves #2 above
3. Historical Facts in the Qur'an - proves #2 above
4. Prophecies in the Qur'an/Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)'s Sayings - proves #2 above
5. Literary Miracle of the Qur'an in Arabic - proves #2 above

Wow...looks like a lot has happened since I started the thread. Sorry about the delay in my reply. Hopefully, I'll get to everyone's points slowly one by one.

First of all, Qur'an is not a book of science, neither it is a book of History or Prophecy. It is a book of guidance and instruction to mankind with Signs to ponder upon. However, everyone's heart and minds are into something different. Therefore, the Qur'an has something for everyone so they can reflect. As the Qur'an says : "We have sent down to thee Manifest Signs (ayat); and none reject them but those who are perverse." (Al Qur'an 2:99)

All # 1, 3, and 5 prove is that it's a piece of literary work with some historical accuracies that has been well preserved. This doesn't prove in the least that it's divine.

This misunderstanding might have come from me not stating one important point and that is any of the #2, #3, #4, #5 above in and of itself does not prove my point that it is not humanly possible and hence divine. In other words, just because a book contains scientific facts does not make it divine or from the Creator. However, any of those, combined with the fact that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was an unlettered man who could neither read nor write and the fact that some of those information could not have been available 1400 years ago due to lack of technological/scientific advancement makes it divine and from the Creator.

And it is historically accepted by muslims and non-muslims alike that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was unlettered. For example : "He had not studied philosophy in the school of Athens of Rome, Persia, India, or China. Yet, He could proclaim the highest truths of eternal value to mankind. Illiterate himself, he could yet speak with an eloquence and fervor which moved men to tears, to tears of ecstasy. Born an orphan blessed with no worldly goods, he was loved by all." [By Prof. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, Head of the Department of Philosophy, Government College for Women University of Mysore, Mandya-571401 (Karnatika). Re-printed from "Islam and Modern age", Hydrabad, March 1978.]
For more details on Prophet Muhammad[PBUH] visit :
The Simple Message of GOD: About Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) - By a non-muslim

# 2 would be interesting, if it were true. And # 4 might have some merit, if there were any actual prophecies in the Qur'an. There is nothing in the Qur'an that has any divine mark on it. It's a great literary work, and it has value in that vein, and even has some good spiritual guides, but there's no way to prove that it's from god.

No scientific facts proven to be true from the Qur'an? It is easy to brush off the Truth without giving any proof. Just read information on the stages of Human Embryonic Development. How could Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), an illiterate man, have possibly known all this 1400 years ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time?

See it with illustrations : A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran

And this is not a Joe Blow agreeing and changing his science book based on the Qur'an. "Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore is one of the world’s most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. " [Taken from ]Islam Guide

Only the Creator could have known this information 1400 years ago.

No prophecies fulfilled from the Qur'an ?
One example of the events foretold in the Quran is the victory of the Romans over the Persians within three to nine years after the Romans were defeated by the Persians. God has said in the Quran:

"The Romans have been defeated in the nearest land (to the Arabian Peninsula), and they, after their defeat, will be victorious within bedd’ (three to nine) years...." (Quran, 30:2-4)

Let us see what history tells us about these wars. A book entitled History of the Byzantine State says that the Roman army was badly defeated at Antioch in 613, and as a result, the Persians swiftly pushed forward on all fronts.1 At that time, it was hard to imagine that the Romans would defeat the Persians, but the Quran foretold that the Romans would be victorious within three to nine years. In 622, nine years after the Romans’ defeat, the two forces (Romans and Persians) met on Armenian soil, and the result was the decisive victory of the Romans over the Persians, for the first time after the Romans’ defeat in 613.2 The prophecy was fulfilled just as God has said in the Quran. [Taken from ]Islam Guide: Error 404 - The Page Was Not Found

Finally, for #5 - an illiterate man creating a literary miracle ? Again, only if it is from the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

And the Qur'an states the same : ""And thou(Muhammad) wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted. Nay, here are Signs self-evident in the hearts of those endowed with knowledge: and none but the unjust reject Our Signs." (Al Quran 29:48-49)

Peace.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
loverOfTruth said:
No scientific facts proven to be true from the Qur'an? It is easy to brush off the Truth without giving any proof. Just read information on the stages of Human Embryonic Development. How could Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), an illiterate man, have possibly known all this 1400 years ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time?

See it with illustrations : A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran

If you don't mind, please quote the part about the stages of Human Embryonic Development.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
If you don't mind, please quote the part about the stages of Human Embryonic Development.

It is a bit lengthy and with illustrations so it can be easily understood by the laymen. Therefore, I can't quote it here. It is best if you can go to the following url : A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran
and look for the link titled 'The Quran on Human Embryonic Development'.

Either scroll down and look for the link titled 'The Quran on Human Embryonic Development' or it should be one of the top links on the left side of the page also. Sorry there is no direct link to the URL. If you still can't access it, PM me and we'll figure out a way. Thanks.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
Why is it so often that fellow Muslims start a thread on a topic they have not well thought out. Then there are others who unfortunately do a terrible job explaining something although their intention is well. It would really help if we all keep in mind the other persons perspective when we discuss something. I feel a lot of fellow Muslims put a "just do it" argument or explain something as if the other person is a Muslim as well. I will try to find some time to put together some more rational answers that clear up confusions. Maybe a little bit here and then start a project in the summer to do a thread by thread on important topics, maybe I will get some help as well, given I am just a student so I have to be most careful.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
loverOfTruth said:
It is a bit lengthy and with illustrations so it can be easily understood by the laymen. Therefore, I can't quote it here. It is best if you can go to the following url : A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran
and look for the link titled 'The Quran on Human Embryonic Development'.

Either scroll down and look for the link titled 'The Quran on Human Embryonic Development' or it should be one of the top links on the left side of the page also. Sorry there is no direct link to the URL. If you still can't access it, PM me and we'll figure out a way. Thanks.

I just took a brief look at the article. Only people who have extensive knowledge about biology, or biochemistry can intelligently discuss that article. I assume that you do not have extensive knowledge about biology, or biochemistry. If I wanted to, I could find a Ph.D. in biology, pay him to write a complex scientific rebuttal to the article, and you would not be able, on your own, to refute it.

Do you believe that a global flood occurred?
 
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loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
I just took a brief look at the article. Only people who have extensive knowledge about biology, or biochemistry can intelligently discuss that article. I assume that you do not have extensive knowledge about biology, or biochemistry. If I wanted to, I could find a Ph.D. in biology, pay him to write a complex scientific rebuttal to the article, and you would not be able, on your own, to refute it.

Do you believe that a global flood occurred?

Ok, let me answer you with a question. Do you believe that the earth rotates around the sun? I hope so -; Can any laymen prove it? No. Can the experts/scientists prove it? Sure. Can you find a skeptic Phd to come up with some wierd counter argument? Sure. My point being it was accepted by the expert in the field. And we the laymen put our faith that these experts/scientists establish facts based on their studies/research/experiments/observation.

Now read the other s cientific facts mentioned in the Quran about the water cycle, the mountains, big bang, and many more. So you'll need a Phd from so many fields of science. Come on, what are the chances that an illiterate man 1400 yrs ago thought of coming up with ideas(even if not proven right, though that is not the case) from so many fields of science.

Quran leaves the story of Noah's flood open to interpretation. Some think it is local and some think it is global. It is more scientific to think it was local.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
loverOfTruth said:
Ok, let me answer you with a question. Do you believe that the earth rotates around the sun? I hope so -; Can any laymen prove it? No. Can the experts/scientists prove it? Sure. Can you find a skeptic Phd to come up with some wierd counter argument? Sure. My point being it was accepted by the expert in the field. And we the laymen put our faith that these experts/scientists establish facts based on their studies/research/experiments/observation.

You are not making any sense. If we left it up the the majority of biologists, and biochemists, they would claim that the evidence that you mentioned does not reasonably prove that no human could have written it without supernatural help from God.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
loverOfTruth said:
Now read the other scientific facts mentioned in the Quran about the water cycle, the mountains, big bang, and many more. So you'll need a Phd from so many fields of science. Come on, what are the chances that an illiterate man 1400 yrs ago thought of coming up with ideas(even if not proven right, though that is not the case) from so many fields of science.

If you wish to leave it up to science experts, I am not a science expert, and I assume that you are not either. It would help if you have a scientific topic that laymen can understand.
 

Daviso452

Boy Genius
any of those, combined with the fact that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was an unlettered man who could neither read nor write and the fact that some of those information could not have been available 1400 years ago due to lack of technological/scientific advancement makes it divine and from the Creator
Still no. There are still numerous other possibilities. Perhaps someone had written it before-hand and gave it to Muhammad? Perhaps the stories were falsely written? Perhaps aliens were the things Muhammad experienced in the cave? Aliens are far more believable than God, FYI, because they do not require the assumption of a universe outside outside our own.
 

crocusj

Active Member
In other words, just because a book contains scientific facts does not make it divine or from the Creator. However, any of those, combined with the fact that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was an unlettered man who could neither read nor write and the fact that some of those information could not have been available 1400 years ago due to lack of technological/scientific advancement makes it divine and from the Creator.
How so? How does something that seems fantastical automatically make it divine? And how does your fantastical outweigh all the other fantastical out there? Does that mean that all that you personally do not understand (or believe to be true) must therefore be from a god? That is probably the single most condemning idea of humanity into ignorance that I have come across.

No scientific facts proven to be true from the Qur'an? It is easy to brush off the Truth without giving any proof. Just read information on the stages of Human Embryonic Development. How could Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), an illiterate man, have possibly known all this 1400 years ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time?


And this is not a Joe Blow agreeing and changing his science book based on the Qur'an. "Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore is one of the world’s most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. " [Taken from ]Islam Guide

Only the Creator could have known this information 1400 years ago.
Well, him and the Greeks and Romans...and why use ambiguous language? Why not just tell it like it is? If this was exact and divine science then the terminology would not be in dispute today as it so obviously is. Gum? What has gum got to do with it?

Finally, for #5 - an illiterate man creating a literary miracle ? Again, only if it is from the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

Exactly how does the creation of a book equate to the creation of a universe and all that is within it -indeed that there actually is a creator as you say? Once again I have to ask - does everything that you cannot explain personally require it to be divine? The leap you are making there is even bigger than the one in your link about leeches.
If your god is so determined to make himself visible then why not just be so? I understand that you can see your god but if he were so apparent then we would all see him too, whether we wanted to or not.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
Does that mean the Bible is right because I feel the KJV is one of the greatest works of English litterateur?

As I said 'Qur'an being a literary masterpiece in and of itself does not make it divine. However, if you add the fact that this literary masterpiece was produced by an illiterate man and no one else have been able to even produce a chapter similar to it until now(and there had been many attempts), makes it a miracle. And Arabic poetry was actually in its peak at the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Unlike Qur'an which is the Verbatim word of God as revealed to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) in Arabic, modern day Bible is not the Verbatim word of God as revealed to Jesus in its original language. It was not revealed in English and it includes many text written by many literate people. So no comparison there.
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
You are not making any sense. If we left it up the the majority of biologists, and biochemists, they would claim that the evidence that you mentioned does not reasonably prove that no human could have written it without supernatural help from God.

That is your opinion - not fact based on evidence. I am sure there are so many scientists who believe in God/super natural power and many of them have accepted Islam after they read the Qur'an because they knew that such precise scientific facts could not have come from anyone but the Creator 1400 years ago when no such information was available.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
That is your opinion - not fact based on evidence. I am sure there are so many scientists who believe in God/super natural power and many of them have accepted Islam after they read the Qur'an because they knew that such precise scientific facts could not have come from anyone but the Creator 1400 years ago when no such information was available.
*pulls out rubber raft*
 

loverOfTruth

Well-Known Member
If you wish to leave it up to science experts, I am not a science expert, and I assume that you are not either. It would help if you have a scientific topic that laymen can understand.

First of all, I mentioned that it is not a book of science rather it is a book of Signs with something for everyone in it. And I was just giving one example. Of course, if someone doesn't have any knowledge of mathematics, no matter how much I try, I won't be able to explain a mathematical miracle (so to speak). However, my point is that we are willing to trust the scientist on any issues (for example, on the fact that the earth rotates around the sun) even if we personally cannot prove it, but as soon as it comes to the book of God, we come up with all sorts of excuses. I guess the same excuse could be applied to the Evolution theory.

Let me still try to make it easy on you.

Big Bang Theory (not even 100 years old)
I admit that I am not knowledgable enough to explain the intricacies of Big Bang Theory. However, just from some basic study of this theory you can deduce the following basic summary without any detail knowledge of exactly what it is or how it works : 'the universe first started from one single entity and it is still expanding' - just first few lines on this topic in Wikipedia would reveal that. Now read the Qur'anic verses related to that : "Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... "(Al Quran, 21:30) and “And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are (its) expander.” (Quran 51:47)

Fingerprint (not even 200 years old)
Regarding resurrection after death, God states : "Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers." (Al Qur'an 75:3-4) - meaning not only can God re-assemble our bones, He can recreate the most unique part of our body.

I don't think it takes a scientist to connect the dots here. Now even after all this if you think that an illiterate Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) could somehow come up with all these scientific theories(along with all the other miracles I have mentioned) without the necessary technology ? He must have been a genius scientist - so I would rather follow his theory than any one else's ;-).
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friends,

Personal understanding:
Though Mohammud was enlightened the idea to state that he is the ONLY enlightened individual who connected with the source is where the MIND play originated and the rest followed.

Love & rgds
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Big Bang Theory (not even 100 years old)
I admit that I am not knowledgable enough to explain the intricacies of Big Bang Theory. However, just from some basic study of this theory you can deduce the following basic summary without any detail knowledge of exactly what it is or how it works : 'the universe first started from one single entity and it is still expanding' - just first few lines on this topic in Wikipedia would reveal that. Now read the Qur'anic verses related to that : "Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... "(Al Quran, 21:30) and “And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are (its) expander.” (Quran 51:47)

Fingerprint (not even 200 years old)
Regarding resurrection after death, God states : "Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers." (Al Qur'an 75:3-4) - meaning not only can God re-assemble our bones, He can recreate the most unique part of our body.

I don't think it takes a scientist to connect the dots here. Now even after all this if you think that an illiterate Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) could somehow come up with all these scientific theories(along with all the other miracles I have mentioned) without the necessary technology ? He must have been a genius scientist - so I would rather follow his theory than any one else's ;-).
Those verses are hardly scientific and the only way you can read anything scientific into them is if you already believe they are scientific. For example:
"Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers."
May just be a way to say that he can put together everything in the human body back in perfect order. It is unlikely to be about actual fingerprints.
 
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