Is there any evidence for the Truth of Islam ?

[Daviso452]

You weren't understanding my point when I brought up aliens. My point is that it was all aliens, and that god had nothing to do with it. How do you know that is wrong?

Also, citing a passage in the Kuran about a topic does not make it any more true. That just means it's a topic mentioned in the Kuran.

Read the Qur'an and you'll find all the issues that the athiests/unbelievers raise today - nothing new. So they challenged the same way, asked the same questions 1400 years ago. So the notion that one man came and fooled the gullible fools - really doesn't play well. You can read and find out for yourself

My argument is the fact that there are thousands of different religions in the world. For any one to be right, the rest must not be. So why do these people believe all these different things?

It all comes down to the culture and the individuals themselves.

So they challenged the same way, asked the same questions 1400 years ago

If this is true, why did everyone still believe in christianity? In Hinduism? In the roman gods? Well, for one, most people were killed for believing something outside the culture's religion, such as what happened with Jesus, Socrates, and even millions of Europeans during the Catholic reformation. It was something that was, in a way, forced upon you.

However, you do get these people, such as Jesus, Muhammad and Luther who are able to create a new idea and gain followers very quickly.

But again; they can't all be right, so how come not everyone immediately converted to their ideas? Or how were their ideas able to spread in the first place? Because we as humans have what's called a confirmation bias; we hear what we want to hear, and we further believe it. If Muhammad, Jesus, or Luther preached to people who were already open to their ideas, they would have a much better chance of converting people.

It's also why people change religions all the time; many people people believe what they want to hear. Death is a good example; death of a loved one has caused many people to become deeply religious because they want to know their loved one is okay in heaven. Emotions can cause us to act irrationally. The people during the time of Muhammad were no different. Neither were they in the time of Jesus.

Please note that I never once said that Islam was false; what I am giving is an alternative that is just as plausible of an idea/belief as yours. My evidence is through historical consistencies and psychological flaws.

 

[Agnostic75]

Unfortunatly all revealed religions are revealed by human beings.

Yes, it is quite interesting that no supposed God has ever showed up tangibly, in person, to discuss his agenda, and never stayed around in order to confirm his agenda. Logically, if a God wanted people to believe that he exists, and to know what his agenda are, the best way by far for him to accomplish that would be to show up tangibly, in person. If a God exists, apparently some kind of deism is the best choice for a worldview.

When early humans lived, writing had not been invented. Nothing even close to much of what the Koran says was available to people by word of mouth.

 

[McBell]

It is in no way Simplifying Word of God. Rather it is to Simplify reading/reciting especially for non-arabs and people of different dialect. Just like it is translated into different languages - essentially making it easy for non-arabs so they can understand. Nothing peculiar about that.

The easiest way to simply the Word of God is to destroy every copy of all the versions you disagree with.

 

[loverOfTruth]

You weren't understanding my point when I brought up aliens. My point is that it was all aliens, and that god had nothing to do with it. How do you know that is wrong?

I thought you mentioned that you did not deny the existence of God, so I figured you are talking about aliens within the context of God. Now on the flip side, if I don't think that humans with all the intelligence and power are capable of coming up with something so powerful and miraculous as the Qur'an - why would I believe that the aliens (another species outside our view - so to speak) can do that? Just because the grass looks greener on the other side ? It doesn't make sense to replace one variable with just another similar one.

Also, citing a passage in the Kuran about a topic does not make it any more true. That just means it's a topic mentioned in the Kuran.

I do not quote the Qur'an to prove a point but just to show what exactly God said as I believe it. By the way, you are almost there : Koran -> Kuran -> Qur'an ;-) - no pun intended, just joking. Sometimes it is good to bring satire into these serious discussion.

My argument is the fact that there are thousands of different religions in the world. For any one to be right, the rest must not be. So why do these people believe all these different things?

I agree that 'For any one to be right, the rest must not be'.

It all comes down to the culture and the individuals themselves.

If this is true, why did everyone still believe in christianity? In Hinduism? In the roman gods? Well, for one, most people were killed for believing something outside the culture's religion, such as what happened with Jesus, Socrates, and even millions of Europeans during the Catholic reformation. It was something that was, in a way, forced upon you.

However, you do get these people, such as Jesus, Muhammad and Luther who are able to create a new idea and gain followers very quickly.

But again; they can't all be right, so how come not everyone immediately converted to their ideas? Or how were their ideas able to spread in the first place? Because we as humans have what's called a confirmation bias; we hear what we want to hear, and we further believe it. If Muhammad, Jesus, or Luther preached to people who were already open to their ideas, they would have a much better chance of converting people.

I am not sure that I understand what you are trying to say here. But this is what I can say. The word 'Islam' literally means 'Submission to God'. In its simplest form Islam is neither a new religion nor is it exclusively for the Muslims. The essence of Islam is pure, pure, pure monotheism - that is "There is no god but GOD", meaning there is only ONE GOD with no partners. According to Islam, that same message has been conveyed to humanity throughout the history of mankind via God's messengers - all the prophets starting from Prophet Adam(PBUH) and then continuing with many other including Noah(PBUH), Abraham(PBUH), Moses(PBUH), Jesus(PBUH) and finally ending with Prophet Muhammad(PBUH).

However, as time went by everytime after the prophets left, mankind went astray from the teachings and worship of God to 'worshipping their desires'. Some of it could be due to people becoming rebellious and arrogrant or some of it could be because people started coming up with their own ideas as to how to worship God. And generations later there was no way to get back to the orginal and the same True message of God that all the messengers brought due to lack of preservation of the message. And then God sent the last and final messenger, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) with the same message confirming the previous messages. And His followers made very meticulous effort (with God's help obviously) to preserve the message for any generations to come. Just some related verses so you know what it says :
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things." (Al Qur'an 33:40)

"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). We did send messengers before thee amongst the religious sects of old: But never came a messenger to them but they mocked him." (Al Qur'an 15:9-11)

It's also why people change religions all the time; many people people believe what they want to hear. Death is a good example; death of a loved one has caused many people to become deeply religious because they want to know their loved one is okay in heaven. Emotions can cause us to act irrationally. The people during the time of Muhammad were no different. Neither were they in the time of Jesus.

Please note that I never once said that Islam was false; what I am giving is an alternative that is just as plausible of an idea/belief as yours. My evidence is through historical consistencies and psychological flaws.

[/QUOTE]

I understand that people change religion during emotional crisis and death. That is because when they see 'death' or visit the graves, they finally realize the reality. Because changing one's religion during a loved one's death in no way will benefit the loved one. If he/she had not believed and been righteous, nothing you do at that point will help them. At least from Islamic point of view. But how do you explain all the non-muslims who are living a perfectly good life and from all walks of life (race,lifestyle, belief/non-belief) and they choose to study and accept Islam completely out of their own will. And trust me, I can give you tons of examples of those. Seriously - The Deen Show ~ It's a way of life.

Also, as I have shown you in fact Islam is the most historically consistent and psychologically flawless and practical religion on the face of the earth because it is truly from the Creator who is All Powerful and All Knowing.

I recommend you read the following scholarly book on Islam which many non-muslims like. It is part of a series of books on different religions. The Vision of Islam by Sachiko Murata, William C. Chittick http://www.amazon.com/Vision-Visions-Reality-Sachiko-Murata/dp/1557785163

Thanks for a wonderful discussion. Peace.

 

[Agnostic75]

It is a bit lengthy and with illustrations so it can be easily understood by the laymen. Therefore, I can't quote it here. It is best if you can go to the following url : A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran
and look for the link titled 'The Quran on Human Embryonic Development'.

Either scroll down and look for the link titled 'The Quran on Human Embryonic Development' or it should be one of the top links on the left side of the page also.

You are not making any sense. If we left it up the the majority of biologists, and biochemists, they would claim that the evidence that you mentioned does not reasonably prove that no human could have written it without supernatural help from God.

That is your opinion - not fact based on evidence.

But you have no facts that the majority of biologists accept your evidence. You surely could not find one single non-Muslim biologist in the world who agrees with you. Are you a biologist? Have you studied biology in college?

 

[loverOfTruth]

When early humans lived, writing had not been invented. Nothing even close to much of what the Koran says was available to people by word of mouth.

I think you are thinking of Christianity not Islam. Because that theory does not apply to Islam since we believe all the messengers of God(starting from Prophet Adam[pbuh]) came with the same message and asked their people to worship just the Creator. So if one was a follower of Adam[pbuh] and practiced what he preached....he/she is going to Heaven ;-) unless they followed a man made version of what Adam[pbuh] preached which caused them to associate partners with One God.

Read my response to Daviso452 to get little more detail on this.

 

[loverOfTruth]

But you have no facts that the majority of biologists accept your evidence. You surely could not find one single non-Muslim biologist in the world who agrees with you. Are you a biologist? Have you studied biology in college?

I have already posted 2 links - one youtube video link and one site that gives a list of non-muslim scientists (including biologist) who agrees with that. It was in response to a different commenter (may be a few page back in this thread). No I am not a biolgist but I studied biology in school. I don't know why that should matter though.

 

[Agnostic75]

I think you are thinking of Christianity not Islam. Because that theory does not apply to Islam since we believe all the messengers of God (starting from Prophet Adam[pbuh]) came with the same message and asked their people to worship just the Creator. So if one was a follower of Adam[pbuh] and practiced what he preached....he/she is going to Heaven ;-) unless they followed a man made version of what Adam[pbuh] preached which caused them to associate partners with One God.

But you do not have reasonable historical evidence that supports your claims. You are just guessing. No one can know beyond a reasonable doubt what information humans had about God 10,000 years ago.

 

[loverOfTruth]

The easiest way to simply the Word of God is to destroy every copy of all the versions you disagree with.

Except that there is only 1 problem with that idea ;-)

There is only 1 version of the Arabic Qur'an worldwide and there are about 8-9 million people worldwide who memorized the Arabic Qur'an cover to cover.

 

[Agnostic75]

I have already posted 2 links - one youtube video link and one site that gives a list of non-muslim scientists (including biologist) who agrees with that.

What I meant was that you cannot produce one single non-Muslim biologist who believes that your biological evidence indicates that God gave Muhammad evidence about biology that no other human had.

There is a book by a Christian that uses an approach that is similar to your approach. The title of the book is 'The Signature of God.' The author makes all kinds of outlandish, unsupported claims that God gave ancient Hebrews all sorts of advanced scientific knowledge. How utterly absurd. If God gave any group of people advanced scientific knowledge, it was the ancient Greeks, who far surpassed all other groups of ancient people in science, and maybe philosophy, and art. Without the Greeks, there would not have been a Roman Empire.

Please read the Wikipedia article about Archimedes. Few if any Muslims living in 700 A.D. knew as much about science as he did even though he lived around 1,000 years earlier, in the 3rd century B.C. Your scientific evidence is nowhere near what the ancient Greeks knew about science. Any such comparison is absurd.

 

[ForeverFaithful]

Yes, it is quite interesting that no supposed God has ever showed up tangibly, in person, to discuss his agenda, and never stayed around in order to confirm his agenda. Logically, if a God wanted people to believe that he exists, and to know what his agenda are, the best way by far for him to accomplish that would be to show up tangibly, in person. If a God exists, apparently some kind of deism is the best choice for a worldview.

When early humans lived, writing had not been invented. Nothing even close to much of what the Koran says was available to people by word of mouth.

The above forgets that is exactly what Christianity teaches,

 

[loverOfTruth]

What I meant was that you cannot produce one single non-Muslim biologist who believes that your biological evidence indicates that God gave Muhammad evidence about biology that no other human had.

There is a book by a Christian that uses an approach that is similar to your approach. The title of the book is 'The Signature of God.' The author makes all kinds of outlandish, unsupported claims that God gave ancient Hebrews all sorts of advanced scientific knowledge. How utterly absurd. If God gave any group of people advanced scientific knowledge, it was the ancient Greeks, who far surpassed all other groups of ancient people in science, and maybe philosophy, and art. Without the Greeks, there would not have been a Roman Empire.

Please read the Wikipedia article about Archimedes. Few if any Muslims living in 700 A.D. knew as much about science as he did even though he lived around 1,000 years earlier, in the 3rd century B.C. Your scientific evidence is nowhere near what the ancient Greeks knew about science. Any such comparison is absurd.

Scientists On The Qur'an

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." [1]

Keith L. Moore
Professor Emeritus, Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Toronto. Distinguished embryologist and the author of several medical textbooks, including Clinically Oriented Anatomy (3rd Edition) and The Developing Human (5th Edition, with T.V.N. Persaud).

And I'll add one more from the same site:
"... these Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad) could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the 'writer'... It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion (Islam) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... There exist statements in the Qur'an shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'an having been derived from God."
Joe Leigh Simpson
Professor and Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.

I am not sure what else are you looking for. As I said Qur'an is not a book of Science but a book of Signs so people when the appropriate knowledge/technology is available to them can reflect.

 

[loverOfTruth]

But you do not have reasonable historical evidence that supports your claims. You are just guessing. No one can know beyond a reasonable doubt what information humans had about God 10,000 years ago.

Again, you are missing the point here. That's why I am not trying to give evidence for things from 10,000 years ago. I am only giving evidence from 1400 years ago and there's historical evidence to support that Qur'an is preserved since then. So, once I establish the fact that the Qur'an is the word of God (humanly impossible) and that it has been preserved accurately since its revelation ... I have no problem believing what God tells me in the Qur'an about what happened 100,000,000 years ago.

Also, I forgot to thank you. You are also one of the people who brought up interesting points of discussion. Thanks.

 

[Agnostic75]

Message to loverOfTruth: Consider the following:

Archimedes of Syracuse (Greek: Ἀρχιμήδης; c. 287 BC – c. 212 BC) was a Greek mathematician, physicist, engineer, inventor, and astronomer. Although few details of his life are known, he is regarded as one of the leading scientists in classical antiquity. Among his advances in physics are the foundations of hydrostatics, statics and an explanation of the principle of the lever. He is credited with designing innovative machines, including siege engines and the screw pump that bears his name. Modern experiments have tested claims that Archimedes designed machines capable of lifting attacking ships out of the water and setting ships on fire using an array of mirrors.

Archimedes is generally considered to be the greatest mathematician of antiquity and one of the greatest of all time. He used the method of exhaustion to calculate the area under the arc of a parabola with the summation of an infinite series, and gave a remarkably accurate approximation of pi. He also defined the spiral bearing his name, formulae for the volumes of surfaces of revolution and an ingenious system for expressing very large numbers.

Archimedes had proven that the sphere has two thirds of the volume and surface area of the cylinder (including the bases of the latter), and regarded this as the greatest of his mathematical achievements.

Unlike his inventions, the mathematical writings of Archimedes were little known in antiquity. Mathematicians from Alexandria read and quoted him, but the first comprehensive compilation was not made until c. 530 AD by Isidore of Miletus, while commentaries on the works of Archimedes written by Eutocius in the sixth century AD opened them to wider readership for the first time. The relatively few copies of Archimedes' written work that survived through the Middle Ages were an influential source of ideas for scientists during the Renaissance, while the discovery in 1906 of previously unknown works by Archimedes in the Archimedes Palimpsest has provided new insights into how he obtained mathematical results.

Archimedes was able to use infinitesimals in a way that is similar to modern integral calculus. Through proof by contradiction (reductio ad absurdum), he could give answers to problems to an arbitrary degree of accuracy, while specifying the limits within which the answer lay.

That is just part of Archimedes' amazing contritutions to science.

Please note that "Archimedes is generally considered to be the greatest mathematician of antiquity and one of the greatest of all time." Surely God, or an alien must have given Archimedes his knowledge about science. Or, he was a very unusual genetic oddity.

Nothing that Muhammad wrote about science comes anywhere near to what Archimedes wrote about science.

What about Kim-Ung Yong? Consider the following:

Kim Ung-Yong (born March 8, 1962) is a Korean former child prodigy. Kim was listed in the Guinness Book of World Records under "Highest IQ"; the book estimated the boy's score at about 210.

Shortly after birth, Kim began to display extraordinary Korean, Japanese, German, and English by his second birthday. Furthermore, it took him about a month to learn a foreign language. After 8 months he learned concepts of Algebra and could understand concept of differential calculus. At the age of four, on November 2, 1967, he solved complicated differential and integral calculus problems on Japanese television. Even in early childhood, he began to write poetry and was an amazing painter.

Kim was a guest student of physics at Hanyang University auditing courses from the age of 4 until he was 7. In 1970, at the age of 8, he was invited to the United States by NASA, where he finished his university studies. In 1974, during his university studies, he began his research work at NASA and continued this work until his return to Korea in 1978.

Back in Korea, he decided to switch from physics to civil engineering and received a doctorate in that field. He eventually published about 90 papers on hydraulics in scientific journals. As of 2007 he also serves as adjunct faculty at Chungbuk National University.

Surely God, or an alien must have given Kim-Ung Yong his incredible abilities. Or, he is a very unusual genetic oddity.

 

[McBell]

Except that there is only 1 problem with that idea ;-)

There is only 1 version of the Arabic Qur'an worldwide and there are about 8-9 million people worldwide who memorized the Arabic Qur'an cover to cover.

Now there is only one.
Wasn't always the case.

 

[McBell]

There is a book by a Christian that uses an approach that is similar to your approach. The title of the book is 'The Signature of God.' The author makes all kinds of outlandish, unsupported claims that God gave ancient Hebrews all sorts of advanced scientific knowledge.

Which goes to show that it is not only Muslims who so favour the Forer Effect.

 

[Agnostic75]

Scientists On The Qur'an

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." [1]

Keith L. Moore
Professor Emeritus, Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Toronto. Distinguished embryologist and the author of several medical textbooks, including Clinically Oriented Anatomy (3rd Edition) and The Developing Human (5th Edition, with T.V.N. Persaud).

And I'll add one more from the same site:
"... these Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad) could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the 'writer'... It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion (Islam) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... There exist statements in the Qur'an shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'an having been derived from God."
Joe Leigh Simpson
Professor and Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.

I am not sure what else are you looking for. As I said Qur'an is not a book of Science but a book of Signs so people when the appropriate knowledge/technology is available to them can reflect.

But do you have any sources that do not accept an Abrahamic religion? As you know, Christians, Muslims, and Jews, accept a lot of the same evidence.

 

[Agnostic75]

Is He not better than your so-called gods.......?

Not if he approves of imprisoning homosexuals, or putting them to death, as is done in Islamic republics.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Ahh, so it has changed.
Did the Prophet order the compilation of the Koran?
Why is the perfect book of God not perfectly organized?

Can any Muslim shed some light on my questions?

 

[Rational_Mind]

The Quran began to be revealed since the first revelation to Muhammad (saw) in cave of Hira. This revelation continued onto his death. The revelation began to come to the Prophet in shorter bits and over intervals, as time passed this revelation continued to increase in volume and in frequency until the last years of his life where it was almost a continuous stream. The reason for this was to first firm the basic tennet of faith and as the believers were on stable understanding the knowledge they wanted came faster. Moreover, there were very few Muslims in the beginning and by having intervals of revelation of a group of verses sometimes set apart by several months it allowed the few Muslims to commit the whole revelation to memory. As the number of Muslims began to increase and the preservation of the text became easier the revelation began to arrive faster. There were more than 100,000 Muslims near the end of the Prophet's (saw) life and this made memorization of the Quran easier, moreover people were more practiced now in retaining it to memory. Under this divine plan the Quran was placed beyond doubt.

Safe-Guards used for the protection of the Holy Quran
(1) - As soon as a revelation came it was recorded in writing. There are 15 names of people mentioned in the traditions to have been employed by Muhammad (saw) for this purpose (Fath al-Bari, Vol.9, p.19). Zaid, Ubayy, Abdullah bin Sa'd, Zubair, Khalid, Aban, Hanzala, Mu'aiqib, Abdullah, Shurahbil, Abdullah bin Rawaha, Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali.
(2) - The five daily congregational prayers are obligatory upon every Muslim and a portion of the Quran must be recited in each of them so that every Muslim knows some portion of the Quran by heart. Moreover, in the month of Ramadan the Quran is recited from beginning to end during congregational prayers.
(3) - The building up and fostering of a nation requires multiple duties of importance: judges, jurists, expounder of doctrine, etc.. The whole of the Law, doctrine, philosophy, moral precepts and other teachings of Islam are contained in the Quran. As such all people with such duties of importance were under the necessity of committing the entire Quran to memory. This was the essential qualification and such important duties could not be trusted to just anyone.
(4) -The Holy Prophet used to always stress the importance of committing the Holy Quran to memory. He has reported to have said that if a person commits the Quran to memory he would be saved from the torment of Hell. After this announcement very large number of followers began to commit the Holy Quran to memory, there are many instances to show the common man had started to commit the Quran to memory.
(5) - The Holy Prophet appointed four principal teachers of the Quran who memorized it under his supervision and then taught others to commit it to memory. These four people were: Abdullah bin Mas'ud, Salim Maula Abi Hudhaifa, Mu'adh bin Jabal, Ubayy ibn Ka'b. These are particularly selected people, there are among many others who also learned many portions of the Quran under his supervision.
I can still go on and on with examples, hopefully this should suffice for now.