Satyamavejayanti
Well-Known Member
Thanks for he reply, but one question is still unanswered,
Why is the perfect book of God not perfectly organized?
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Is there any evidence for the Truth of Islam ?
- Thread starter loverOfTruth
- Start date
Thanks for he reply, but one question is still unanswered,
Why is the perfect book of God not perfectly organized?
McBell
Admiral Obvious
Which Hadith?
Or do you mean all of them?
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
Define what you mean when you say perfectly organized. This will help avoid confusion after. Sorry I have not answered the previous questions completely, I think there are many other thinks left to be addressed. I will find some more time.
Satyamavejayanti
Well-Known Member
Well to expect Allahs word to be prefect, the Book should be organised at least in a perfect unison numerically and alphabetically or alphanumeric, you know if Allah is perfect the he should be perfected in every way.
Agnostic75
Well-Known Member
Satyamavejayanti said:
Does Allah oppose homosexuality?
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
I think you are looking for for a dictionary. Think deeper, what would be the most perfect book to give to mankind. The more you think about it then it will get you closer to a sincere quest for truth.
By the way, how many instances are there of people converting to Islam just because it spoke on topics of science such as embryonic development. My understanding of the Quran is that it taught that these signs are for the sincere finders of truth. Those who open a book to find mistakes only find mistakes that they want there. It does not help either when some Muslims take understanding of the Quran as such that is doesn't make sense and cause contradictions.
Satyamavejayanti
Well-Known Member
im asking a separate question, and as far as i know, yes.
Satyamavejayanti
Well-Known Member
Im not asking that, all im asking is if the koran is the perfect word of allah, why is it not perfectly organised.
I don't know anyone whose converted to Islam just by reading about embryonic development, and to convert because of only one scientific similarity in the entire book is stupidity. And remember the Koran is not a book of science but signs.
There is more science in the Hindu scriptures then the Koran, there is more science in the Bible then the Koran, The Tao, Zend, Buddhist, Jewish and nearly all old scripture have some hints of science, so why is the koran any better then these?
Even if you leave religions scriptures behind, there is more science in any book by Carl Sagan, Albert Einstein and Steven Hawking and many others then the Koran could ever imagine, those who convert because of 1 similarity of science in Koran must have been living under a rock in a desert on a island in the middle of nowhere.
I stay in my religion because of spirituality and not science.
gnostic
The Lost One
Any Muslim who want other people, particularly non-Muslims, to take their threads seriously should avoid webpages or videos of Zakir Naik at all cost, because he is utter idiots. Even some of more intelligent and wiser Muslims don't take Naik seriously or strongly disagree with his "lectures".
To me, Naik is a Muslim version of Christian tele-evangelist: all tall but no substance. We all know about him.
Avoid Naik, loverofTruth.
To me, Naik is a Muslim version of Christian tele-evangelist: all tall but no substance. We all know about him.
Avoid Naik, loverofTruth.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
Did someone fool you to think Quran is a science textbook. Quran claims to be a book for spiritual guidance. As for conformance with science, I can say it is way above any other scripture, it is unfortunate that most people direct you to Zakir Naik and friends that do a terrible job conveying it. Let it be clear that Quran does reveal a lot of science but it is not the primary purpose of the Quran, that is not the focus.
Please spend some time thinking through what would be a perfect book this way you can begin a genuine quest to find truth.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
Let me mention one very clear scientific truth given in the Quran.
Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge & Truth
-Mirza Tahir Ahmad
At the time the Holy Quran was revealed, the human understanding of the nature of the cosmos and the movement or the stillness of the heavenly bodies was extremely primitive and obscure. This is no longer the case, as our knowledge of the universe has considerably advanced and expanded by the present age.
Some of the theories relating to the creation of the universe have been verified as facts, whereas some others are still being explored. The concept of the expanding universe belongs to the former category, and has been universally accepted by the scientific community as 'fact'. This discovery was first made by Edwin Hubble in the 1920s. Yet some thirteen centuries before this, it was clearly mentioned in the Quran:
And the heaven We built with Our own powers (aydin) and indeed We go on expanding it (musi'un).1
It should be remembered that the concept of the continuous expansion of the universe is exclusive to the Quran. No other Divine scriptures even remotely hint at it.
Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge & Truth
-Mirza Tahir Ahmad
Satyamavejayanti
Well-Known Member
yes, people who claim the Koran has science, and then claim people have converted because of it.
How, any proof of that.
And stop contradicting your self, as whoever thinks that the koran is a Science text book is a fool as stated above by you.
then why use some scientific similarities to justify conversion to Islam?
To me a perfect book (of GOD) will firstly be organised in perfect manner, dealing with each subject in life of all humans, that will include spiritual and scientific knowledge, it will include knowledge that no other book before it has. this book will be in no language of the world, this book will not divide people based on any differences. If it were the inspiration of God then who ever human writes it physically will not include their names in it. This book will have no contradictions, no hatred or violence. This book will not be for one sect or group of people, no historical places or people, the knowledge in this book will have to stand the test of time and be eternal.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
It should be noted that most other religions don't feel a need to prove themselves as much as Islam does. My guess is that other religionista's can't be bothered trying to shoehorn vague passages from their Holy Books into modern science, inherently understanding that such an undertaking would not be accepted by anyone outside of the camp of delirious like-minded zealots.
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McBell
Admiral Obvious
So which version of the Koran is your presented verse from?
Ahmed Ali
We spread the earth a carpet; what comfort We provide!
Daryabadi
And the earth! We have stretched it forth beneath; an excellent Spreader are We!
Hamid S. Aziz
And the earth, We have spread it out; how gracious was the Spreader thereof.
Faridul Haque
And We made the earth a base, so how well do We lay out!
Shakir
And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out.
Yusuf Ali
And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out!
Pickthall
And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)!
Ali Unal
And the earth, We have spread it out, and how excellent We are in spreading it out (like a cradle).
Amatul Rahman Omar
And the earth, We have spread it out and how excellently We lay things out.
English Literal
And the earth/Planet Earth We spread it out so the levelers/preparers (are) blessed/praise.
(Source)
So it seems your presented version is a fairly new rewriting...We spread the earth a carpet; what comfort We provide!
Daryabadi
And the earth! We have stretched it forth beneath; an excellent Spreader are We!
Hamid S. Aziz
And the earth, We have spread it out; how gracious was the Spreader thereof.
Faridul Haque
And We made the earth a base, so how well do We lay out!
Shakir
And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out.
Yusuf Ali
And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out!
Pickthall
And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)!
Ali Unal
And the earth, We have spread it out, and how excellent We are in spreading it out (like a cradle).
Amatul Rahman Omar
And the earth, We have spread it out and how excellently We lay things out.
English Literal
And the earth/Planet Earth We spread it out so the levelers/preparers (are) blessed/praise.
(Source)
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loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
I already mentioned about the Aliens. Why would I believe the Aliens could write the Qur'an where I don't believe that Humans could do it ? I think of Humans to be more powerful and intelligent than the Aliens. Essentially there's no difference between the Human writing it versus the Alien writing it. Just because they are considered extra-terrestrial or outside our normal view, doesn't mean that they have better information available to them.
Actually, I think you are being extremely unfair in the standards you apply to the arguments I am providing given that it is exactly how proving theory works in the Scientific world. Ok, what is evidence ? "Evidence may involve understanding all steps of a process, or one or a few observations, or observation and statistical analysis of many samples without necessarily understanding the mechanism." And that's how Scientific facts are concluded based on finite observations. Most scientific theory is never proven against all circumstances. Let's take Gravity, for instance. I am pretty sure that you don't believe that Scientists have dropped every other Object in the Universe
against every other Object to prove Gravity. And even if they did, according to your argument, no one just didn't find any object that proves Gravity wrong, does not mean that no one can't. Get it ?
If we are ready to willingly accept the evidences that Science provides until someone else comes with an evidence otherwise, why can't we do the same in the case of religion/god. So I really think the point you are making is irrational and unscientific.
Having said all that - your point only applies to #5 of my argument that no one can produce a chapter like the Qur'an (and notice that the smallest chapter in the Qur'an is only 3 - 4 verses). It doesn't apply to #2, #3, and #4 because those have already happened - there's nothing impossible
left to prove about them. For example, Scientific Facts(not elaborate science theories)/Historic Events/Future Events mentioned as a Sign in the Qur'an which was not available at the time and certainly could not be produce by an illiterate man. So I did provide enough evidences(just like scientists does) on a multitude of items showing that they could not be Humanly possible. And when you add those all up and try to see the possibility, it is amazing. I'll detail on the possibility/probability in a later post to someone who commented on that.
We can discuss all that can or cannot happen. But that's not the point here. We are discussing whether that happened with Islam or not. And if you read some Islamic history, it won't be long before you find out that people of Makkah were rebelling against the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) from the
moment He started preaching the message of Islam. If you can imagine the Arabian society (especially then) was a very tribal society. And it would have been very hard for someone to go out of the norm/belief of their tribe and accept a completely new message(which didn't exist before) compared
to the independent society we see in the west today. I think they would have gone through at least as much hardship/challenge to accept a new way of life if not more. So they certainly asked the same rigorous questions and were absolutely certain about the evidences before they made the switch.
Again, this is not a discussion about proving existence of God. That is an entirely different topic. But you are misunderstanding the point here. we get our definition/attributes of God from the Qur'an and not the other way around. And especially in the case of that person who was talking in that video, it could not be more false. The name of the person is Abdur Raheem Green. You can search about his conversion story on YouTube. So He certainly didn't have a preconceived notion of the Islamic God. He studied, researched and finally made a rational decision to accept Islam.
I will end with the following. According to the Islamic tradition, God gave miracles to many prophets. For example, Jesus(pbuh) spoke from the cradle, healed the blind and the leper; Moses(pbuh) parted the sea for the people of Israel etc. However, these were physical miracles which has the most impact on those who can witness the miracle. The effect is certainly not as much as
generations later. However, when Prophet Muhammmad(pbuh) was asked about his miracle, he stated that Qur'an was his greatest miracle (even though he also had physical miracle such as splitting the moon etc.) Qur'an certainly is a timeless miracle with something for everyone(as I have shown) until the end of times. Each verse of the Qur'an is called an 'Ayat' meaning 'Sign' (for those who reflect).
Hope this answers most if not all of your questions. I would suggest you pickup a copy of the Translation of the Qur'an
Amazon.com: The Qur'an (Oxford World's Classics) eBook: M. A. S. Abdel Haleem: Kindle Store and see it for yourself now.
Peace
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
Sorry for the confusion. Ahmadi Muslims take great care to count bismillah as the first verse of the surah. Muhammad (saw) had instructed clearly that bismillah is a verse. So please look one verse behind in the translations you are looking at.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Aliens capable of contacting humans will be unfathomably advanced. Their knowledge and ability will make them indistinguishable from Gods.
Because it turns out that space travel is hard.
loverOfTruth
Well-Known Member
Aliens capable of contacting humans will be unfathomably advanced. Their knowledge and ability will make them indistinguishable from Gods.
Because it turns out that space travel is hard.
And your evidence for that is? I am sure they didn't come and tell you that.