Is there any evidence for the Truth of Islam ?

[Rational_Mind]

Ahh, so it has changed.
Did the Prophet order the compilation of the Koran?
Why is the perfect book of God not perfectly organized?

Hopefully I have time to address this today. The Quran was compiled first in the Khilafat of Hazrat Abu Bakr. Muhammad (saw) ordered the verses but they were not revealed in the same order as they are prophetic and warned of future events. When put in order (as given by Muhammad (saw)) they form another layer upon layer of depth in meaning. This is one of the beauties of the Holy Quran. Human word does not have this complexity and quality such that it also protects itself from any unclarity and misinterpretation for those who are sincere and put forth a sincere effort like they would for anything else they really desire.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Debater Slayer;2842332]
Sura 6, verse 103:

"No vision can grasp him, but his grasp is over all vision: he is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."

Sura 7, verse 143:

"When Moses came to the place appointed by us, and his Lord addressed him, he said: O my Lord show (thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee. God said. by no means canst thou see me (direct); but look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see me. when his Lord manifested his glory on the mount, he made it as dust, and Moses fell down in a swoon. when he recovered his senses he said: Glory be to thee to thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."

Moses didn't see God, and therefore there's no contradiction between the two verses as the video claims.

if you see the bold wording of Sura 7, Verse 143 it says Allah manifest his glory as dust, to me that is a visual.

The Qur'an was written down as dictated orally from Muhammad at first, then went through many processes such as being collected in one book after Muhammad's death.

The current arrangement is not done according to chronological order, so the whole argument about the "first word" in the Qur'an is rather pointless when considering this.

Another thing to note would be that diacritics were added later on to ease reading and recitation. There are seven versions of the Qur'an, the only difference being the position of some diacritics. Otherwise, the content is the same.

Why is the perfect book of God not perfectly organized?

Rational_Mind
Safe-Guards used for the protection of the Holy Quran
(1) - As soon as a revelation came it was recorded in writing. There are 15 names of people mentioned in the traditions to have been employed by Muhammad (saw) for this purpose (Fath al-Bari, Vol.9, p.19). Zaid, Ubayy, Abdullah bin Sa'd, Zubair, Khalid, Aban, Hanzala, Mu'aiqib, Abdullah, Shurahbil, Abdullah bin Rawaha, Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali.

But as per this Sahih, it was mostly lost because of war.

Sahih Bukhari, Book 60, Number 201: Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari: who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra’ were killed). ‘ Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, ‘Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra’ (those who know the Qur’an by heart) at othe r battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur’an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur’an.” Abu Bakr added, “I said to ‘Umar, ‘How can I do something which Allah’s Apostle has not done?’ ‘Umar said (to me), ‘By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.’ So ‘Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as ‘Umar.” (Zaid bin Thabit added Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). “You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah’s Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur’an and collect it (in one manuscript). ” By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur’an. I said to both of them, “How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?” Abu Bakr said, “By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):– “Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)” (9.128) The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with ‘Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar’s daughter.

How sure can one be that the whole of Quran would have been collected when one had to collect it from bones and parchments and the memories of ordinary men?

(2) - The five daily congregational prayers are obligatory upon every Muslim and a portion of the Quran must be recited in each of them so that every Muslim knows some portion of the Quran by heart. Moreover, in the month of Ramadan the Quran is recited from beginning to end during congregational prayers.

And below sahih about even Muhammad forgetting verses of Koran.

“Sahih Bukhari Book 61, Number 558: Narrated Aisha: Allah’s Apostle heard a man reciting the Qur’an at night, and said, “May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget.”

and what about this comment? what is your opinion.

.....but it is important to note that many muslims claim(on account of hadit references) that the previous scriptures of God [the Torah, Injeel etc] have been corrupted.If we treat this claim as an evidence , it can be be rationally conculded that Allah is somehow vulnerable to corruption.If He failed before thrice in preserving his message, there is NO REASON to trust Him when he says that the fourth time he won’t fail ! He is thrice shy

 

[fishy]

Hopefully I have time to address this today. The Quran was compiled first in the Khilafat of Hazrat Abu Bakr. Muhammad (saw) ordered the verses but they were not revealed in the same order as they are prophetic and warned of future events. When put in order (as given by Muhammad (saw)) they form another layer upon layer of depth in meaning. This is one of the beauties of the Holy Quran. Human word does not have this complexity and quality such that it also protects itself from any unclarity and misinterpretation for those who are sincere and put forth a sincere effort like they would for anything else they really desire.

..........it also protects itself from any unclarity and misinterpretation.........

This then renders the Hadiths redundant. Since there can be no need for clarification or interpretation.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Why is the perfect book of God not perfectly organized?

How sure can one be that the whole of Quran would have been collected when one had to collect it from bones and parchments and the memories of ordinary men?

And below sahih about even Muhammad forgetting verses of Koran.

“Sahih Bukhari Book 61, Number 558: Narrated Aisha: Allah’s Apostle heard a man reciting the Qur’an at night, and said, “May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget.”

and what about this comment? what is your opinion.

Unfortunately some people rely on a hadith that was recorded some 270 or so years based on oral tradition. And there are other that clearly narrate similarly saying that Allah causes others to forget. If this hadith was accurate then Hazrat Aisha being so close to Muhammad (saw) and learning under him would have questioned that how this came to be as the Quran says that his memory would be perfect when it came to revelation. It is well known by so many other hadith and the fact that he lead prayers and recited these surahs that his memory was perfect when it came to the Quran. I hope you will not stand on oral narration collected after some 270 or so years.

This directly contradicts with Quran verse:

We shall teach thee the Qur’an, and thou shalt forget it not,
Except as Allah wills. Surely, He knows what is open and what is hidden.
(87:7-8)

This means to say that Allah will not let his memory falter when it comes to the Qu'ran, as this is his will. But as to other cases where the importance is not as relevant his memory will be able to falter as Allah wills.

Please read into the entire incident where many people who had memorized the Quran were killed and what happened. I don't think you are well aware of numbers. And you have forgotten all the other safe-guards I mentioned. Additionally, Muhammad (saw) would review the Quran as revealed to Angel Gabriel. It would not be something of importance for those who do not believe in Angels, none the less it is to show that there was special importance taken for a book to be preserved for all time. The other texts were never given such safe-guards by God as he never willed them to exist for ever. They were steps in progress into the final law for mankind that came through the Quran. There is no region to whom a messenger with law was not sent, according to the Quran. We believe such law was the best for that time, until it was abrogated in stages, and when Islam came it was the final law to bring mankind onto one till the day of judgement.

 

[Rational_Mind]

This then renders the Hadiths redundant. Since there can be no need for clarification or interpretation.

The Quran alone can defend itself. Hadith is only supportive, moreover it is a collection of history. If hadith did not exist there would be people going around making ignorant allegations on preservation of the Quran. I am surprised that such allegations are still raised, but mostly come from people who fear believing and do not put forth a sincere effort in research. It is very rare that I come across a educated non-muslim who thoroughly researched such allegations and still claims that Quran was not preserved.

 

[Daviso452]

I thought you mentioned that you did not deny the existence of God, so I figured you are talking about aliens within the context of God. Now on the flip side, if I don't think that humans with all the intelligence and power are capable of coming up with something so powerful and miraculous as the Qur'an - why would I believe that the aliens (another species outside our view - so to speak) can do that? Just because the grass looks greener on the other side ? It doesn't make sense to replace one variable with just another similar one.

I said that wrong. I meant to say that you don't seam to be considering the possibility of aliens writing the kuran.

However, there are two major points I wish to make. One, you are being incredibly close-minded. It is, quite literally, impossible to say a single thing about something you know NOTHING ABOUT. Just because you DON'T KNOW HOW does not mean it is not possible. You are employing the argument from ignorance, which is a major logical fallacy.

Second, you still have not proven it is not possible for Humans to do so. You have stated that people haven't, but that does not mean that we can't. Where is your evidence that it is not possible?

I am not sure that I understand what you are trying to say here. But this is what I can say. The word 'Islam' literally means 'Submission to God'. In its simplest form Islam is neither a new religion nor is it exclusively for the Muslims. The essence of Islam is pure, pure, pure monotheism - that is "There is no god but GOD", meaning there is only ONE GOD with no partners. According to Islam, that same message has been conveyed to humanity throughout the history of mankind via God's messengers - all the prophets starting from Prophet Adam(PBUH) and then continuing with many other including Noah(PBUH), Abraham(PBUH), Moses(PBUH), Jesus(PBUH) and finally ending with Prophet Muhammad(PBUH).

However, as time went by everytime after the prophets left, mankind went astray from the teachings and worship of God to 'worshipping their desires'. Some of it could be due to people becoming rebellious and arrogrant or some of it could be because people started coming up with their own ideas as to how to worship God. And generations later there was no way to get back to the orginal and the same True message of God that all the messengers brought due to lack of preservation of the message. And then God sent the last and final messenger, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) with the same message confirming the previous messages. And His followers made very meticulous effort (with God's help obviously) to preserve the message for any generations to come. Just some related verses so you know what it says :
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things." (Al Qur'an 33:40)

But how do you explain all the non-muslims who are living a perfectly good life and from all walks of life (race,lifestyle, belief/non-belief) and they choose to study and accept Islam completely out of their own will.

That wasn't my point. You said that people were perfectly rational and wouldn't just blindly accept things. The point I was trying to make is that by nature our psyche is flawed, and a reasonable man can easily believe something preposterous under the right conditions. That is not to say, however, that it is the case for everyone, or even a majority, or that it is the case for Islam.

Also, as I have shown you in fact Islam is the most historically consistent and psychologically flawless and practical religion on the face of the earth because it is truly from the Creator who is All Powerful and All Knowing.

That is a very hollow argument. I watched the first episode of the series you posted, and before giving any argument I can already predict one major flaw; you have a definition for what God is. OF COURSE you can make the Kuran match YOUR DEFINITION. However, not everyone will agree with your definition. To do that, you must first prove what the attributes of God are. And to do that, you must first prove there is a god.

I recommend you read the following scholarly book on Islam which many non-muslims like. It is part of a series of books on different religions. The Vision of Islam by Sachiko Murata, William C. Chittick Amazon.com: Vision of Islam (Visions of Reality) (9781557785169): Sachiko Murata, William Chittick: Books

Perhaps...

 

[fishy]

The Quran alone can defend itself. Hadith is only supportive, moreover it is a collection of history. If hadith did not exist there would be people going around making ignorant allegations on preservation of the Quran. I am surprised that such allegations are still raised, but mostly come from people who fear believing and do not put forth a sincere effort in research. It is very rare that I come across a educated non-muslim who thoroughly researched such allegations and still claims that Quran was not preserved.

Now I made no mention of the preservation of the Qu'ran. What I posited was that if as you maintain, the Qu'ran protects itself from unclarity and misinterpretation, then the Hadiths are redundant, since the Hadiths are used primarily for clarification of the Qu'ran. Isn't this the case, supplying "context" for the suras?

 

[Rational_Mind]

Now I made no mention of the preservation of the Qu'ran. What I posited was that if as you maintain, the Qu'ran protects itself from unclarity and misinterpretation, then the Hadiths are redundant, since the Hadiths are used primarily for clarification of the Qu'ran. Isn't this the case, supplying "context" for the suras?

I just gave an example about preservation of Quran. I think you might benefit from reading exactly what Hadith encompass.

 

[fishy]

I just gave an example about preservation of Quran. I think you might benefit from reading exactly what Hadith encompass.

But I have, it's you who is denying it's import. It is you who is denying what the Qu'ran says about it's clarity. Why are you doing such? Are you afraid that the Qu'ran is not absolute in it's clarity? If you believe in the Qu'ran's clarity and inability for misinterpretation then you can't possibly place any credence in the Hadiths.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,
The conversation here reminded me of a zen story a very beautiful story which had read.
It went something like this: A monk travelling through various towns and villages [practising non-attachment with people and places] lands up at night at a open buddhist temple in a village to spend the night. The night being very cold and fidning nothing to keep hi warm he burns the wooden statue of buddha to keep the body warm. Next morning the villagers coming for morning prayers find the staue of buddha burnt and the monk sleeping peacfully. Their anger is rouseda nd they throw him out. In is calm response he states : The buddha within needed to be alive!

Love & brgds

 

[Agnostic75]

Scientists On The Qur'an

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." [1]

Keith L. Moore

Professor Emeritus, Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Toronto. Distinguished embryologist and the author of several medical textbooks, including Clinically Oriented Anatomy (3rd Edition) and The Developing Human (5th Edition, with T.V.N. Persaud).

And I'll add one more from the same site:

"... these Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad) could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the 'writer'... It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion (Islam) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... There exist statements in the Qur'an shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'an having been derived from God."

Joe Leigh Simpson

Professor and Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.

I am not sure what else are you looking for. As I said Qur'an is not a book of Science but a book of Signs so people when the appropriate knowledge/technology is available to them can reflect.

Consider the following:

In his article, A Scientist’s Interpretation of References to Embryology in the Qur’an, Moore asserts that "statements referring to human reproduction and development are scattered throughout the Qur'an", and that "the interpretation of the verses in the Qur'an referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A.D., or even a hundred years ago."

Moore's work on the Qur'an has aroused controversy among embryologists such as PZ Myers. In 2002, Moore chose not to be interviewed by the Wall Street Journal on the subject of his work on Islam, stating that “it's been ten or eleven years since I was involved in the Qur'an.”

So Moore’s claims were disputed, and Moore refused to defend his claims.

 

[Agnostic75]

Scientists On The Qur'an

And I'll add one more from the same site:

"... these Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad) could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the 'writer'... It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion (Islam) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... There exist statements in the Qur'an shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'an having been derived from God."

Joe Leigh Simpson

Professor and Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.

I am not sure what else are you looking for. As I said Qur'an is not a book of Science but a book of Signs so people when the appropriate knowledge/technology is available to them can reflect.

http://answering-islam.org/Responses/It-is-truth/chap02.htm

At the urging of conference organizers, Prof. Simpson attested that this passage was consistent with the way recessive genes pass on traits not obvious in parents. But he says that the parallels -- while striking -- aren't necessarily evidence of divine inspiration.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Consider the following:



So Moore’s claims were disputed, and Moore refused to defend his claims.

Do a wikipedia search on PZ Myers and you'll wonder why he might have opposed Moore ?

 

[Agnostic75]

I am not sure what else are you looking for. As I said Qur'an is not a book of Science but a book of Signs so people when the appropriate knowledge/technology is available to them can reflect.

If the Qur'as is not a book of science, why have you been quoting some science experts who have a religious bias that favors the Qur'an? As I showed in one of my previous posts, one of your experts, Dr. Simpson, has said that what the Qur'an says about embryology is not necessarily from divine inspiration. In another one of my posts, I showed that Dr. Moore's claims have been disputed by some experts.

Where did Archimedes get his amazing scientific knowledge from? He was the greatest mathematician of antiquity, and one the greatest scientists of all time. No one in the entire world at the time knew as much about science as he did.

And what about Kim Ung-Yong, of South Korea?

Shortly after birth, Kim began to display extraordinary Korean, Japanese, German, and English by his second birthday. Furthermore, it took him about a month to learn a foreign language. After 8 months he learned concepts of Algebra and could understand concept of differential calculus. At the age of four, on November 2, 1967, he solved complicated differential and integral calculus problems on Japanese television. Even in early childhood, he began to write poetry and was an amazing painter.

Kim was a guest student of physics at Hanyang University auditing courses from the age of 4 until he was 7. In 1970, at the age of 8, he was invited to the United States by NASA, where he finished his university studies. In 1974, during his university studies, he began his research work at NASA and continued this work until his return to Korea in 1978.

Back in Korea, he decided to switch from physics to civil engineering and received a doctorate in that field. He eventually published about 90 papers on hydraulics in scientific journals. As of 2007 he also serves as adjunct faculty at Chungbuk National University.

I assume that if Kim Ung-Yong was a Muslim, you would be boasting that God gave him his amazing abilities. I have read a good deal about prodigies, but I have never come across another prodigy like Kim Ung-Yong.

 

[Agnostic75]

Do a wikipedia search on PZ Myers and you'll wonder why he might have opposed Moore ?

No biologist in the world who does not follow an Abrahamic religion will claim that Islam is the best choice for a worldview based partly upon what the Koran says about science. Dr. Simpson admitted that what the Koran says about embryology does not necessarily indicate divine inspiration.

Where did Archimedes get his amazing sceintific knowledge from? No one in the world at the time knew even close to what he knew about science.

Perhaps an alien told Muhammad some things about biology.

 

[Agnostic75]

Scientists On The Qur'an

"... these Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad) could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the 'writer'... It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion (Islam) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... There exist statements in the Qur'an shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'an having been derived from God."

Joe Leigh Simpson

Professor and Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.

Rebuttals to "It is Truth"

 

[Agnostic75]

Is He not better than your so-called gods.......?

Not if he approves of imprisoning homosexuals, or putting them to death, as is done in Islamic republics.

If Muslim writings approve of the unfair, and barbaric mistreatment of homosexuals in Islamic republics, they cannot have been inspired by a loving God.

 

[Rational_Mind]

But I have, it's you who is denying it's import. It is you who is denying what the Qu'ran says about it's clarity. Why are you doing such? Are you afraid that the Qu'ran is not absolute in it's clarity? If you believe in the Qu'ran's clarity and inability for misinterpretation then you can't possibly place any credence in the Hadiths.

I will repeat once again. Learn what Hadith is. It is you who is ignorant. You take it as only commentary of the Quran.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Rebuttals to "It is Truth"

If you are not willing to accept statements from Scientists who belong to the Abrahamic Faith (even though you don't know for sure whether those scientists listed are really paganist, or atheist or agnostic or christians or jews), you shouldn't be giving arguments/rebuttals from confirmed Anti-muslim Christian (certainly of Abrahamic Faith) sources. You can't have it both ways.

I think what is happening here is the following : now that I have answered all your questions that you couldn't counter, you are moving the target. Now, if I give you a source who is Hindu, you'll say bring me a Buddhist and so on.

Clarification on my comment above : I don't mean that all Christians or non-muslims are Anti-muslim. I am specifically talking about this specific site : answering-islam

 

[Agnostic75]

If you are not willing to accept statements from Scientists who belong to the Abrahamic Faith (even though you don't know for sure whether those scientists listed are really paganist, or atheist or agnostic or christians or jews), you shouldn't be giving arguments/rebuttals from confirmed Anti-muslim Christian (certainly of Abrahamic Faith) sources. You can't have it both ways.

I think what is happening here is the following : now that I have answered all your questions that you couldn't counter, you are moving the target. Now, if I give you a source who is Hindu, you'll say bring me a Buddhist and so on.

Clarification on my comment above : I don't mean that all Christians or non-muslims are Anti-muslim. I am specifically talking about this specific site : answering-islam

What are you claiming, that medical knowledge in the Koran indicates that God inspired the Koran? Other than some biologists who are followers of Abrahamic religions, no biologist in the world would make such a claim.

As I showed in one of my previous posts, Dr. Simpson admitted that what he said about embryos and the Koran does not necessarily imply divine inspiration.

Now, if I give you a source who is Hindu, you'll say bring me a Buddhist and so on.

No Hindu biologist would claim that that medical knowledge in the Koran indicates that God inspired the Koran.

Where did Archimedes get his amazing scientific information from?

There are numerous Interent articles that refute claims that the Koran has advanced scientific information.

We can assume that medical evidence in the Koran has not been submitted for peer review in any leading science journal. We can also assume that the National Academy of Sciences would not be impressed with any scientific information in the Koran.

If the Koran actually contained a lot of advanced scientific information, since Muslims worldwide collectively have lots of money, it should be easy for them to have some international televised debates, and prove their claims. Why aren't there any such debates? A debate challenge would readily be accepted by some skeptic scientists.