CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
So in most translations the earth seems to be flat.
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Is there any evidence for the Truth of Islam ?
- Thread starter loverOfTruth
- Start date
So in most translations the earth seems to be flat.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
You don't put enough time into processing my post. Read my last post on what I said: "Let it be clear that Quran does reveal a lot of science but it is not the primary purpose of the Quran, that is not the focus." If you are only looking for contradictions you are intentionally forcing such that doesn't exist to appear to you.
Ahmadi Muslims do not go around like mainstream Muslims that think people convert on such signs (and the Quran does repeatedly point out that not to expect such from disbelievers) . I have never used scientific principles to justify conversion to Islam, neither do I believe anyone converts truly at heart just based on that alone. My intention of the post was to show you that Quran does not contradict or exclude science. Because you claimed that other scriptures contain more science for whatever odd reason either to undermine the Quran or maybe some other intent. I do not believe that your statement is true, moreover I assert that the Quran is much more in conformance with established facts of science then any other religion. If it is misconstrued by so called "scholars" then let it be clear that it is not the Quran but their understanding.
Example: Most mainstream Muslims believe that the laws of the world are broken to perform miracles. We believe that miracle is in conformance with laws and God would not break a law he created as it would be against understanding of many attributes of God, including perfection. Although something may appear breaking laws of nature it does not do so, but our knowledge is limited at that time.
My point is that you can be a Muslim and study science at the same time.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
I can't see how you can be a sincere person and say that what the verse I quoted was vague.
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Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
Read the important word (spread) used in the verse at the bottom left of this page.
The words translated as "spread" and the other "lay out" are further used in the following verses:
2:23, 20:51, and 78:7.
The verse numbers are all links. Just read the verses, context of verses around there would also help. If it still doesn't make sense then also read the commentary. Then it should become quite clear the meaning of the words used and what they mean. If you are sincerely looking to understand the verse it will be very clear what the verse is conveying and assuming that it translates to a flat earth would become clearly incorrect.
Satyamavejayanti
Well-Known Member
Ahh i did not know you were Ahmadiya, and i wasn't referring to you when i said people convert because of science in Koran, i was referring to the Shiat or Sunni claim, and others on this tread.
but your claim of Koran having more science then other religious scriptures undermines the other scriptures, to make this claim without knowing other scriptures is wrong thinking.
your statement above which i put in bold is vary hypocritical as you accused me of undermining the Koran.
Since it would seem you are unwilling to answer these questions.
Perhaps you could explain what these verses, that have been confirmed by modern science, meant for the 1200yrs prior to the advancement of science. Were these verses meaningless drivel until science explained them, if not, what did they mean for 1200 years?
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Well, I have over 40 English translations at my fingertips. Most of the translations refer to flatness, like a rolled out carpet, which IS what you would expect from at 7th century person. Likewise, it is doubtful that 7th century Arabs had a term for "expand" which is a 15th century term. Go figure.
To add to Mestemia's list:
26 Generally Accepted English Translations of the Meaning of (adh-Dhariyat 51:48)!
And the earth have We spread out wide - and how well have We ordered it! - Muhammad Asad
And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)! - M. M. Pickthall
And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out. - Shakir
And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out! - Yusuf Ali
And the earth, We spread it forth. How excellent are the ones who spread! - Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
We have spread out the earthhow well We have spread it out - Wahiduddin Khan
The earth have We spread out; how Blissful is the One Who has smoothed it off! - T.B.Irving
And the earth did We spread out* and invest and adorn as with blazonry, and how artistically was it prepared for life and blazoned! - [Al-Muntakhab]
And the Earth We furnished; glory be to the Makers. - [Progressive Muslims]
We spread out the earth- how well We smoothed it out! - Abdel Haleem
And the earth! We have stretched it forth beneath; an excellent Spreader are We! - Abdul Majid Daryabadi
And the earth/Planet Earth We spread it out so the levelers/preparers (are) blessed/praise. - Ahmed Ali
And the earth — We spread it like a carpet and how well We smoothed it out! - Aisha Bewley
And the earth, We have spread it out, and how excellent We are in spreading it out (like a cradle). - Ali Ünal
And the earth We have spread it out, so how excellent spreaders We have been! - Ali Quli Qara'i
And the earth, We have spread it out and how excellently We lay things out. - Amatul Rahman Omar
And the earth, We have spread it out; how gracious was the Spreader thereof. - Hamid S. Aziz
And the earth, We have laid it out (as) a bedding, so how excellent are the Smoothers! (i.e., Those who make the earth as a cradle) - Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
We have spread out the earth and how brilliantly it is spread! - Muhammad Sarwar
And the earth was spread out by Us as a floor; so how well have We spread it out! - Muhammad Taqi Usmani
And We have spread out the earth, and how excellent a Spreader We are! - Shabbir Ahmed
And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out! - Syed Vickar Ahamed
And the earth We have spread out, and excellent is the preparer. - Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
We have spread out the earth; how excellent a spreader We are! - Farook Malik
And We have spread out the earth. (Observe)! How aptly did We stretch it! - Dr. Munir Munshey
And We alone made (the surface of the) earth a (livable) floor. So how graciously We make up and spread out! - Tahir-ul-Qadri Mohammad
<source>
Even Tafsir Ibn Kathir does not lend much support to the idea of expand, thought it does mention extend, which is not quite the same thing.
Allah reminds us of the creating of the higher and lower worlds,
وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا ...
meaning, `We made it as a high roof, protected from falling,'
... بِأَيْدٍ ...
meaning, with strength, according to Abdullah bin Abbas, Mujahid, Qatadah, Ath-Thawri and several others,
... وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ ﴿٤٧﴾
means, `We made it vast and We brought its roof higher without pillars to support it, and thus it is hanging independently.'
وَالْأَرْضَ فَرَشْنَاهَا ...
meaning, `We have made it a resting place for the created,'
... فَنِعْمَ الْمَاهِدُونَ ﴿٤٨﴾
meaning, `We spread it for its inhabitants,' {Like a carpet or table cloth)!
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Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
Go back and read my last few posts. Quick jumpers are usually just there to smash.Well, I have over 40 English translations at my fingertips. Most of the translations refer to flatness, like a rolled out carpet, which IS what you would expect from at 7th century person. Likewise, it is doubtful that 7th century Arabs had a term for "expand" which is a 15th century term. Go figure.
To add to Mestemia's list:
26 Generally Accepted English Translations of the Meaning of (adh-Dhariyat 51:48)!
And the earth have We spread out wide - and how well have We ordered it! - Muhammad Asad
And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)! - M. M. Pickthall
And the earth, We have made it a wide extent; how well have We then spread (it) out. - Shakir
And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out! - Yusuf Ali
And the earth, We spread it forth. How excellent are the ones who spread! - Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
We have spread out the earthhow well We have spread it out - Wahiduddin Khan
The earth have We spread out; how Blissful is the One Who has smoothed it off! - T.B.Irving
And the earth did We spread out* and invest and adorn as with blazonry, and how artistically was it prepared for life and blazoned! - [Al-Muntakhab]
And the Earth We furnished; glory be to the Makers. - [Progressive Muslims]
We spread out the earth- how well We smoothed it out! - Abdel Haleem
And the earth! We have stretched it forth beneath; an excellent Spreader are We! - Abdul Majid Daryabadi
And the earth/Planet Earth We spread it out so the levelers/preparers (are) blessed/praise. - Ahmed Ali
And the earth We spread it like a carpet and how well We smoothed it out! - Aisha Bewley
And the earth, We have spread it out, and how excellent We are in spreading it out (like a cradle). - Ali Ünal
And the earth We have spread it out, so how excellent spreaders We have been! - Ali Quli Qara'i
And the earth, We have spread it out and how excellently We lay things out. - Amatul Rahman Omar
And the earth, We have spread it out; how gracious was the Spreader thereof. - Hamid S. Aziz
And the earth, We have laid it out (as) a bedding, so how excellent are the Smoothers! (i.e., Those who make the earth as a cradle) - Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
We have spread out the earth and how brilliantly it is spread! - Muhammad Sarwar
And the earth was spread out by Us as a floor; so how well have We spread it out! - Muhammad Taqi Usmani
And We have spread out the earth, and how excellent a Spreader We are! - Shabbir Ahmed
And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out! - Syed Vickar Ahamed
And the earth We have spread out, and excellent is the preparer. - Umm Muhammad (Sahih International)
We have spread out the earth; how excellent a spreader We are! - Farook Malik
And We have spread out the earth. (Observe)! How aptly did We stretch it! - Dr. Munir Munshey
And We alone made (the surface of the) earth a (livable) floor. So how graciously We make up and spread out! - Tahir-ul-Qadri Mohammad
<source>
Even Tafsir Ibn Kathir does not lend much support to the idea of expand, thought it does mention extend, which is not quite the same thing.
Allah reminds us of the creating of the higher and lower worlds,
We constructed the heaven.وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا ...
meaning, `We made it as a high roof, protected from falling,'
with Hands,... بِأَيْدٍ ...
meaning, with strength, according to Abdullah bin Abbas, Mujahid, Qatadah, Ath-Thawri and several others,
Verily, We are able to extend the vastness of space thereof.... وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ ﴿٤٧﴾
means, `We made it vast and We brought its roof higher without pillars to support it, and thus it is hanging independently.'
And We have made the earth a Firash,وَالْأَرْضَ فَرَشْنَاهَا ...
meaning, `We have made it a resting place for the created,'
how excellent a spreader (thereof) are We!,... فَنِعْمَ الْمَاهِدُونَ ﴿٤٨﴾
meaning, `We spread it for its inhabitants,' {Like a carpet or table cloth)!
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
The reason I make this statement is that I have heard and read a lot of atheists state such saying that if they were to believe in any religion it would be Islam because it is most in conformance with science...My last post would have a hypocritical statement from if I took one book and put it under all other scriptures including not even scriptures but non-religious books as well.
From personal experience, either other religious scholars of Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, etc do a bad job showing this quality of their scriptures or I would have to accept what I hear from lest likely to be non-bias sources and even in some cases there are people of other religions accepting this fact.
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
By the way, Ahmadi Muslims believe all major world religions before Islam were truly revealed religions. Among those we include that which was revealed to Prophet Krishna (AS). So we have respect for those religions but do not believe they were ever intended for all time or promised to be preserved.
fishy said:Since it would seem you are unwilling to answer these questions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishy
I wonder what other verses you are waiting to interpret accurately (based on advances in science) and how they are currently interpreted.
Perhaps you could explain what these verses, that have been confirmed by modern science, meant for the 1200yrs prior to the advancement of science. Were these verses meaningless drivel until science explained them, if not, what did they mean for 1200 years?
Are these questions really so hard?http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=2847563
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
Are these questions really so hard?http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=2847563
The Quran says that it contains verses that only hold one meaning. Others are susceptible to different interpretations. Also many verses hold the quality of an independent idea along with the idea it separately shares with the verses surrounding. There are many other qualities that are also related, such that an Arabic word may have more than one meaning and all may apply. Hence one of the reasons Quran was revealed in Arabic. I will expand on this such that you are not confused on how to tell the meaning. It should be such that it doesn't contradict other verses of the Quran.
Sorry it is hard to give a more complete response on a cell phone. I missed your post in a scurry to work.
The verses that refer to embryonic development, meant something else until embryonic development was discovered, what was it? What did those verses mean for 1200 years?
McBell
Admiral Obvious
To be completely honest with you, It looks all the world as thought he verse changed to better fit the currently accepted scientific explanation in order for some people to rant and rave that the Koran has to be from god because no one, especially an illiterate nobody, could have possibly known about it back then.
Problem is when you apply the 20/20 technique to 51:48 you see that the author believed the earth was flat and that the verse was not talking about the big bang at all.
Agnostic75
Well-Known Member
Message to loverOfTruth: What are you claiming, that advanced medical knowledge in the Koran indicates that God inspired the Koran? Other than some biologists who are followers of Abrahamic religions, no biologist in the world would make such a claim.
What prestigious, peer-reviewed medical journals have articles about advanced medical knowledge in the Koran?
What has the National Academy of Sciences ever said about advanced medical knowledge in the Koran?
Which group of people knows the most about biology? Quite obviously, biologists. The vast majority of biologists in the world are not impressed with the supposedly advanced medical knowledge in the Koran. Since the vast majority of experts are not impressed, why should laymen who know far less about biology?
Which group of people knows the most about geology. Quite obviously, geologists. If laymen want to know whether or not a global flood probably occurred, which gorup of people should they trust? Quite obviously, the vast majority of geologists, and the vast majority of geologists do not believe that a global flood occurred.
One of your scientific sources is Dr. Simpson. As I showed in one of my previous posts, he has admitted that what he said about embryos and the Koran does not necessarily indicate divine inspiration. I also showed that another one of your sources, Dr. Moore, refused to be interviewed about some of his claims.
If the Koran actually contained a lot of advanced scientific information, since Muslims worldwide collectively have lots of money, it should be easy for them to have some international televised debates, and prove their claims. Why aren't there any such debates? A debate challenge would readily be accepted by some skeptic scientists.
If a God inspired the Koran, and wanted to use it to convince as many people as possible to accept Islam, he could easily have done that in many ways. For example, God could have used the Koran to predict when and where some natural disasters would occur, month, day, and year. Skeptics would have a difficult time refuting evidence like that, and far more people would be Muslims today.
Very few skeptics would not want a kind, loving God to exist. That is because most skeptics know that if such a God exists, it would be in their own self-interest to accept him. Human oversight is a good thing. Without it, there would be anarchy in society. Obviously, divine oversight from a kind, loving God would be much better. So, simiple logic indicates that most skeptics would not have any motives for rejecting the Koran other than 1) they do not believe that any God exists, or 2) believe that it is plausible that a God exists, but not the God of any religious book, or 3) follow other religions.
Religious based presuppositionalism often results in confirmation bias. Please read a Wikipedia article about confirmation bias at Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
What prestigious, peer-reviewed medical journals have articles about advanced medical knowledge in the Koran?
What has the National Academy of Sciences ever said about advanced medical knowledge in the Koran?
Which group of people knows the most about biology? Quite obviously, biologists. The vast majority of biologists in the world are not impressed with the supposedly advanced medical knowledge in the Koran. Since the vast majority of experts are not impressed, why should laymen who know far less about biology?
Which group of people knows the most about geology. Quite obviously, geologists. If laymen want to know whether or not a global flood probably occurred, which gorup of people should they trust? Quite obviously, the vast majority of geologists, and the vast majority of geologists do not believe that a global flood occurred.
One of your scientific sources is Dr. Simpson. As I showed in one of my previous posts, he has admitted that what he said about embryos and the Koran does not necessarily indicate divine inspiration. I also showed that another one of your sources, Dr. Moore, refused to be interviewed about some of his claims.
If the Koran actually contained a lot of advanced scientific information, since Muslims worldwide collectively have lots of money, it should be easy for them to have some international televised debates, and prove their claims. Why aren't there any such debates? A debate challenge would readily be accepted by some skeptic scientists.
If a God inspired the Koran, and wanted to use it to convince as many people as possible to accept Islam, he could easily have done that in many ways. For example, God could have used the Koran to predict when and where some natural disasters would occur, month, day, and year. Skeptics would have a difficult time refuting evidence like that, and far more people would be Muslims today.
Very few skeptics would not want a kind, loving God to exist. That is because most skeptics know that if such a God exists, it would be in their own self-interest to accept him. Human oversight is a good thing. Without it, there would be anarchy in society. Obviously, divine oversight from a kind, loving God would be much better. So, simiple logic indicates that most skeptics would not have any motives for rejecting the Koran other than 1) they do not believe that any God exists, or 2) believe that it is plausible that a God exists, but not the God of any religious book, or 3) follow other religions.
Religious based presuppositionalism often results in confirmation bias. Please read a Wikipedia article about confirmation bias at Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
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YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I did, but couldn't be bothered changing my post. Again, for the slow, "expand" is a 15th century term that would not have had any meaning in the 7th century, therefore the idea that the word means "expand" cannot be correct. It does not matter if that is what the word has come to mean, as at the time, no such meaning was evident.
Cordoba
Well-Known Member
This interpretation of the Qur'an (tafsir) is by Ibn Kathir, and it's an old tafsir
You can check at this URL the interpretation of Chapter 23, verses 12 to 14:
Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - The Success is for the believers whose qualities are described here
(verse 12 starts at the end of the above page)
Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
You have to be kidding me. Prime example of an insincere quest to discover the truth.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
You keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means.
Specifically, you tried to claim that the Quran said something that it can't possibly say. That sounds far more insincere to me than anything YmirGF's said.
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Rational_Mind
Ahmadi Muslim
So you are also saying that there was no way to say something expands before the 15 th century? Second thing to remember it's that what I have posted is a translation. Also study some off the qualities of Arabic, how words are formed. Like I started earlier, there is good reason for why the book for all time was revealed in Arabic over other languages.