Is there anything outside the material universe?

[Mock Turtle]

How do you know they're mind-independent?

How do I know anything - by observation and verification. I can't hear the nail complaining when it is hit by the hammer but I sure know it hurts when the hammer drives the nail through the palm of my hand - as some would testify - mostly from the Philippines, I believe - and around this time too.

 

[12jtartar]

Is there anything outside the material universe?

Seems to me there are things not contained within the material physical universe and, therefore, not explained by science. Some examples:

1. The subjective experience of consciousness.
2. The initial conditions of the universe that allows it to support complex chemical biological life.
3. Sense of moral attributes such as goodness, beauty, love.
4. The presence of a divine creator God.

I propose that everything not contained within the physical realm resides within the spiritual realm. Such things as: beauty, concepts, consciousness, dreams, emotions, God, goodness, hallucinations, holiness, hope, ideas and concepts, life, memories, mind, morality, reason, souls, spirits, symbols, visions, will, and etc.

I also propose that nothing can be proved about the structure or function of the spiritual realm. There is no "spiritual" method corresponding to the scientific method. Therefore, all revealed religion and all beliefs about the spiritual realm are mere opinions. And there is no reason at all to expect anyone to adopt our opinions.

Jesus3:16,
The things written in the Holy Scriptures are not opinions, they are the written message from The Almighty God to all mankind, and many things, especially concerning the Spirit Realm are, what is called Extrascientific, meaning that many things cannot be explained by our limited knowledge of true science, but that does not mean that they are not true.
There are many things that are beyond the material things. The Almighty is the Absolute GOOD, and there are over a hundred million angels, that we know of,Daniel 7:10. There is also Satan, the absolute BAD, and he has many angels that fell from God’s Grace, and made themselves demons. God made all things perfect, the fallen angels are Self Born demons!!! Deuteronomy 32:4,5.
God does not expect anyone to believe the Bible, without proof. The things written in the Holy Scriptures prove beyond any doubt that is was written by a much Superior mind, because many, many things written were written before any human knew about. In fact the human writers wrote nothing but silly myths, but look at the things Moses wrote, many of which were not known for many centuries. Of all things that should prove what God says is always accurate, probably the most proof of all is the many Prophecies. As you know, no man can accurately fortell the future, but written in God’s words are Prophecies that sometimes spanned thousands of years, sometimes few, but always fulfilled exactly as prophesied. Only God, whose Personal, Proper Name, Jehovah, actually means, He Causes to Become, could cause everyone of His Prophecies to come true. There are too many to record here, but every serious Bible reader knows many.

 

[1137]

How do I know anything - by observation and verification. I can't hear the nail complaining when it is hit by the hammer but I sure know it hurts when the hammer drives the nail through the palm of my hand - as some would testify - mostly from the Philippines, I believe - and around this time too.

Observation and verification... That is mind-independent? I'm not sure I understand.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Observation and verification... That is mind-independent? I'm not sure I understand.

How else am I supposed to know? Observe - feel pain - verified. Basically, I'm more interested in the world of our senses than the world we might and can create with our minds - the latter often being rather prone to errors.

 

[blü 2]

The materiality is a specific mode in which the monistic substrate that underlies all that is manifests under certain conditions. At other times its manifestation is through immaterial modes like qualia, subjective luminosity etc. , at yet other times it manifests as the abstract world of logic and math. So on.

Assuming for the moment the validity of the term, what's immaterial about qualia?

They only occur in brains functioning according to the rules of physics, no?

How could they, or anything else, truly be immaterial yet said to have objective existence?

How can 'immaterial' mean anything else than 'imaginary'?

 

[sayak83]

Assuming for the moment the validity of the term, what's immaterial about qualia?

They only occur in brains functioning according to the rules of physics, no?

How could they, or anything else, truly be immaterial yet said to have objective existence?

How can 'immaterial' mean anything else than 'imaginary'?

Brain activities are the way these qualia events manifest themselves in the material dimension. Its like a projection of a complex number in the real plane.

 

[blü 2]

Brain activities are the way these qualia events manifest themselves in the material dimension. Its like a projection of a complex number in the real plane.

How can that be an accurate statement about reality? In other words, how can that correct anywhere but in imagination?

 

[Jumi]

I'm sure there is, but it's quite alien to us material creatures.

 

[sayak83]

How can that be an accurate statement about reality? In other words, how can that correct anywhere but in imagination?

What's wrong with it?

 

[blü 2]

What's wrong with it?

How can it be a correct statement about reality? Reality is the sum of things with objective existence. What you speak of has no objective existence or you could show it to me (as distinct from asking me to imagine it).

 

[sayak83]

How can it be a correct statement about reality? Reality is the sum of things with objective existence. What you speak of has no objective existence or you could show it to me (as distinct from asking me to imagine it).

That's your definition of reality, not mine. I follow pragmatic conception of truth and reality. We had a discussion about it, remember?

 

[ArtieE]

How can it be a correct statement about reality? Reality is the sum of things with objective existence. What you speak of has no objective existence or you could show it to me (as distinct from asking me to imagine it).

And the image you have of it in your head is a part of objective reality.

 

[WalterTrull]

The materiality is a specific mode in which the monistic substrate that underlies all that is manifests under certain conditions. At other times its manifestation is through immaterial modes like qualia, subjective luminosity etc. , at yet other times it manifests as the abstract world of logic and math. So on.

Ohhh.

 

[sayak83]

Ohhh.

I am certain you have a better explanation as to why the world of abstract logic and math, subjective qualia, informational bits and material realm are all integrated together indivisibly?

 

[WalterTrull]

it hurts when the hammer drives the nail through the palm of my hand

Please don't do that.

 

[WalterTrull]

I am certain you have a better explanation as to why the world of abstract logic and math, subjective qualia, informational bits and material realm are all integrated together indivisibly?

Yeah. It's the big dude.

 

[blü 2]

And the image you have of it in your head is a part of objective reality.

No, we've been through that. The image I have in my head exists in physical form (has objective reality) as a concept or memory but the contents of the concept or memory, like a drawing on a sheet of paper, do not.

How do you think your concept of a unicorn or an alternative universe exist in your head? As immaterial whats, exactly?

 

[tayla]

The scientific method is,in principle, generally applicable and is not constrained to what is usually called material world.

I have never seen application of the scientific method to spiritual matters. They seem to defy repeatable experiments with falsification. I would love to be proved wrong.

 

[sayak83]

I have never seen application of the scientific method to spiritual matters. They seem to defy repeatable experiments with falsification. I would love to be proved wrong.

As brain imaging studies improve, one can actually see what the mind of another is thinking or seeing. This may, over time, provide objective means to compare and validate 1st person mystical experiences , for example the various jhana levels of Buddhist meditation.

 

[tayla]

Not necessarily. For example, see the quote above by Professor Henry. Many of the studies we have on quantum mechanics very clearly suggest that observation of some sort is required to actualize quantum potentials.

I don't think it is observation by a conscious observer that triggers wavefunction collapse but, rather, interaction with other matter. If there is an observer, they are poking at it with material tools which interact with it.