Is there Free Will in Heaven?

[jonman122]

i don't see many cats at all that obey people, they just run around and lie on stuff and eat food. They're pretty cute though. Just because something is less intelligent or smaller than you doesn't necessarily mean you should be just, or for that matter even take NOTICE of it. You don't go out and count every bug that lives on your lawn, do you? if you were all knowing and all conceiving, would you even actually care at all about them? not likely. If you created the entire universe, why create something so vast for a race of humans that is so small.. and then for people to assume that the entire universe is here just for us yet say "if you don't believe in god then you don't believe in a higher power than humanity, and that is just absurd."

as for the top of what you said (i didn't want to quote it all because its so long) there is absolutely nill proof that god exists or that any gods exist at all, so why would we need proof that there is a war going on for universes? its possible that in fact there are and its just so far beyond the scope of anything we can comprehend that we shall never know about it.

 

[Cordoba]

i don't see many cats at all that obey people, they just run around and lie on stuff and eat food. They're pretty cute though. Just because something is less intelligent or smaller than you doesn't necessarily mean you should be just, or for that matter even take NOTICE of it. You don't go out and count every bug that lives on your lawn, do you? if you were all knowing and all conceiving, would you even actually care at all about them? not likely. If you created the entire universe, why create something so vast for a race of humans that is so small.. and then for people to assume that the entire universe is here just for us yet say "if you don't believe in god then you don't believe in a higher power than humanity, and that is just absurd."

The starting point about free will and Heaven is to debate a believer's position in the existence of a Creator

And the example given was about home cats, no wild cats

In normal circumstances, if you have a cat at home which you are responsible for feeding, and that cat does not cause trouble, and it thanks you for the food you give it (with a purr), why would you be unfair to it?

Would a mother in normal circumstances be unfair to her dependent baby?

The clear answer is no

So why assume that God would be unfair to His creation by judging them for their free will when they don't really have free will?

 

[jonman122]

The starting point about free will and Heaven is to debate a believer's position in the existence of a Creator

And the example given was about home cats, no wild cats

In normal circumstances, if you have a cat at home which you are responsible for feeding, and that cat does not cause trouble, and it thanks you for the food you give it (with a purr), why would you be unfair to it?

Would a mother in normal circumstances be unfair to her dependent baby?

The clear answer is no

So why assume that God would be unfair to His creation by judging them for their free will when they don't really have free will?

that's the point, it isn't fair for him to judge anyone because there really is no free will and to be frank he already knows the outcome of who will be judged to get in to heaven, because he is all knowing, so no matter how you feel about it you're still not actually getting free will, just the illusion of free will.

If god is all knowing, we are all judged already. from birth, it is clear to him who will get in to heaven and who will not. This means we only have an illusion of free will, no real free will at all.

unless god is not all knowing, and then he could judge us fairly when we go to heaven. but then he really doesn't fit the description of god, does he?

this is where logic prevails, but blind faith will shield you from the truth of your own words.

 

[Cordoba]

The rules of algebra break down when the x tends towards zero in the curve y = 1/x

Same here

When you are dealing with an "Eternal" Creator the rules of logic break down when dealing with the concept of "time" because He is The Creator of time

What keeps the balance in the issue at hand is the trust of a believer that God is Just and Fair

He would not hold us accountable for our decisions if we did not have free will

That's for sure, no doubt about it

All the best

 

[Thief]

The rules of algebra break down when the x tends towards zero in the curve y = 1/x

Same here

When you are dealing with an "Eternal" Creator the rules of logic break down when dealing with the concept of "time" because He is The Creator of time

What keeps the balance in the issue at hand is the trust of a believer that God is Just and Fair

He would not hold us accountable for our decisions if we did not have free will

That's for sure, no doubt about it

All the best

How about the equation...
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I might do a good thing unto some one else....and then...
each one I meet in heaven will do likewise unto me.

I might do harm unto someone...and then....I will be received...
by each one in heaven...in the same way.

 

[Nerthus]

How about the equation...
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I might do a good thing unto some one else....and then...
each one I meet in heaven will do likewise unto me.

I might do harm unto someone...and then....I will be received...
by each one in heaven...in the same way.

I do quite like like this idea. I haven't really thought if it that way before.

I just think that Heaven would be such a happy and peaceful place, that one wouldn't want to do anything sinful. Everyone would have free will, but they would use it for good and for the right thing.

 

[Beaudreaux]

The rules of algebra break down when the x tends towards zero in the curve y = 1/x

Same here

When you are dealing with an "Eternal" Creator the rules of logic break down when dealing with the concept of "time" because He is The Creator of time

What keeps the balance in the issue at hand is the trust of a believer that God is Just and Fair

He would not hold us accountable for our decisions if we did not have free will

That's for sure, no doubt about it

All the best

Does it bother you that the only way to believe in your God is to embrace the irrational?

 

[Deicidal Maniac]

But to go to the main issue of whether The Creator is Just or unjust as regards human free will:

By all measures, our size, our power and our human knowledge is insignificant compared to that of The Creator, so why would He be unfair to us?​

Let me give you an example: Assume you have a cat at home who keeps you good company, would you be unfair to your cat whom you feed each day and who thanks you for it and obeys you?​

Same here. We are insignificant in size compared to our Creator, who brought us into existence for a purpose (to know Him and love Him, as He loves us - according to faith) so why would He be unfair to us? Logically-speaking it makes no sense.​

To confirm this point, God says in The Qur'an,​

" What would Allah do with your punishment if you are grateful and believe? And ever is Allah Appreciative and Knowing" (4:147)​

If He gave us free will, and the freedom to choose between belief and disbelief, do you really think that such a Creator would be unjust to us and would hold us accountable by not giving us true free will?

I think that a better analogy would be between a kid and an ant colony. The kid may accidentally drop some food scraps that the ants can salvage, but he also might fry us with a magnifying glass just for the sadistic joy of it. From the kid's perspective, is he being unjust? No, he's just doing whatever he wants to do to an infinitely lesser species. If ants were intelligent enough to contemplate ethical philosophy, wouldn't they think that the kid was cruel and unjust? Yes, the ants would realize that the kid was completely amoral towards them following the dictum that "might makes right". The kid gives the ants the free will to move to another colony far away from him or be completely destroyed by him at an unspecified time in the future. Is it fair for him to destroy their ant colony since he allowed them enough time to move away? Or is he cruel for forcing them to decide between abandoning their home or being destroyed with their home?You see, ants are insignificant in size to us but do we treat them fairly? No. In the same manner, the Creator does not treat us fairly.

If the purpose of our creation was to love and be loved by our creator then why would he send anyone to hell? Would you send your loved ones to hell for not loving you enough? Is that really justice or just self-serving glory, like I had said?

 

[Cordoba]

Does it bother you that the only way to believe in your God is to embrace the irrational?

Quite the opposite

Belief in a Creator (imo) is rational

Are you able to explain what made this universe come into existence?

 

[jonman122]

Quite the opposite

Belief in a Creator (imo) is rational

Are you able to explain what made this universe come into existence?

yes. the flying spaghetti monster touched this area in space with his noodly appendage and the universe sprang forth. and i have just as much proof to back this up as you have to back up your claim.

woopidy doo

 

[Cordoba]

I think that a better analogy would be between a kid and an ant colony. The kid may accidentally drop some food scraps that the ants can salvage, but he also might fry us with a magnifying glass just for the sadistic joy of it. From the kid's perspective, is he being unjust? No, he's just doing whatever he wants to do to an infinitely lesser species. If ants were intelligent enough to contemplate ethical philosophy, wouldn't they think that the kid was cruel and unjust? Yes, the ants would realize that the kid was completely amoral towards them following the dictum that "might makes right". The kid gives the ants the free will to move to another colony far away from him or be completely destroyed by him at an unspecified time in the future. Is it fair for him to destroy their ant colony since he allowed them enough time to move away? Or is he cruel for forcing them to decide between abandoning their home or being destroyed with their home?You see, ants are insignificant in size to us but do we treat them fairly? No. In the same manner, the Creator does not treat us fairly.

There is a problem with this analogy: the kid is immature

Do you logically believe that a Creator who has all the might and knowledge needed to create this immense universe, would be immature?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Quite the opposite

Belief in a Creator (imo) is rational

Are you able to explain what made this universe come into existence?

I hope you are not going to try and present a logical argument for the existence of God when you clearly stated in an earlier post that we cannot understand God by using logic. You can't have it both ways. Either God can be understood via logical reasoning or He cannot. You have already claimed that He cannot.

 

[Cordoba]

The essence of God can't be understood through logical reason Beaudreaux, nor what the concept of Eternity really means.

Some attributes on the other hand of The Creator (like Might & Knowledge, ...) can be reached through logical reasoning

There is a leading Muslim scholar at George Washington University, Dr. Seyyed Hossein Nasr, who goes into the logical and philosophical sides in his books and articles in a specialized way. This talk for example is an interview titled (Is Theism Coherent?)

[youtube]jcWnfCXJW4E[/youtube]

YouTube - Is Theism Coherent?

In this interview he explains some of the 99 names and attributes of God (starting at minute 7)

 

[Beaudreaux]

The essence of God can't be understood through logical reason Beaudreaux, nor what the concept of Eternity really means.

Some attributes on the other hand of The Creator (like Might & Knowledge, ...) can be reached through logical reasoning

But Cordoba, his "Might & Knowledge" are the crux of the free will argument and it is in this argument that you insist logic does not apply. The argument goes:

• God's knowledge is unbounded
• God knew every action you would ever take before he created the universe
• You WILL take those actions because God cannot be wrong about what he knows you will do. Your life's path is already mapped out.
• If every one of your actions is already known, then you cannot be free to do something other than what God knows you will do.

When I present this to you, you tell me God cannot be understood with logic.

 

[Cordoba]

The problem here is that you are comparing two "time frames" which are beyond comparison, between an Eternal God (who created time) and between human beings who live only 70 or 100 years

Belief in "measured destiny" is one of the six articles of faith in Islam, and my understanding and belief is in God's Justice.

God's Knowledge is Eternal and independent of the choices we make in life

He would not hold us responsible for our actions if we did not have free will

 

[sukhi]

God has created the universe out of self - interest or just out of boredom. That is the only logic that can be explained for the God's initiation of the world.

God gives free will to everyone to do what they want to do ( if God loves freedom then he would provide freedom to others too). god can be understood by logic and realised by mediation / karma / Devotion ( Islam follows this method as do Vasihnivaism/Christianity).

Begging to God to absolve sins doesnt work. It is karma that catches up irrespective of how much one prays to God. that is logical. If you kill a man and repent , then one cant be absolved of the sin unless the killed man forgives you. this is a justified and logical system.

Also if God cant be understood by logic , then it means that God is not God. REalisation of God is a different matter.

Also the concept of God itself is utterly wrong in the cult abramahic religions. That would require a lot of discussion but God is logical and God can be understood by logic. Rest are all just demi gods who want people to be their slaves out of materialistic desires.

Prasoon Dixit , Vedic Dharmi,
Reestablising Vedic Dharma

 

[Beaudreaux]

The problem here is that you are comparing two "time frames" which are beyond comparison, between an Eternal God (who created time) and between human beings who live only 70 or 100 years

Belief in "measured destiny" is one of the six articles of faith in Islam, and my understanding and belief is in God's Justice.

God's Knowledge is Eternal and independent of the choices we make in life

He would not hold us responsible for our actions if we did not have free will

And yet, logically, we cannot have free will if he knows our actions in the future. The fact that God experiences time differently than we do does not matter. It is OUR experience of time that limits us if God knows what we will do. Sure, maybe to God time does not exist, but it DOES for us. Our "choices" are time bound. That means that, if God knows what we're going to do before we do it then our will cannot be free.

BTW, you have already said that God's knowledge is open to logical analysis.

 

[Thief]

Well let's say I happen to know you....

And you are so predictable....

Does my knowing.... stop you from .....changing your mind?

Now then..

Scripture has report of God...changing His mind.
A different course of events was available to Him.

Are you so much less? that you cannot see....you can change your mind.

 

[gnostic]

What of Genesis 6:1-6, which say that the sons of God, who were supposedly angels, chose to come down to earth and mate with mortal women they saw? They sired children, known as Nephilim, who were supposedly giants, and "heroes of old".

Isn't the actions of these angels that choosing to "sin" be considered free will?

 

[Cordoba]

And yet, logically, we cannot have free will if he knows our actions in the future. The fact that God experiences time differently than we do does not matter. It is OUR experience of time that limits us if God knows what we will do. Sure, maybe to God time does not exist, but it DOES for us. Our "choices" are time bound. That means that, if God knows what we're going to do before we do it then our will cannot be free.

The main point is that we don't know what God knows, and therefore that point is irrelevant to us as it is simply unknown

On the Day of Judgment we will understand, and a believer is sure that God is Just

Meanwhile, we need to do our best to make the right decisions