Is there Free Will in Heaven?

[budha3]

On earth man is king, but in heaven God is king. This reason why He is king in heaven is that His presence (Love) is so overpowerful that you have no choice but to succumb to it. Kings of heaven who come to earth are refered to as "Christ."
The kings of earth are clothed in top designer suits, and live like kings of old, that they may stand in awe of them. A king of heaven may wear a janitor's uniform, may be a tiller of the soil, may work at the local Wal-Mart store or be burned on a cross.

 

[PolyHedral]

Well let's say I happen to know you....

And you are so predictable....

Does my knowing.... stop you from .....changing your mind?

Of course not. But if you're truly knowing, you know I'll change my mind.

This reason why He is king in heaven is that His presence (Love) is so overpowerful that you have no choice but to succumb to it.

Forcing you to God's will doesn't sound very loving. :sarcastic

 

[Thief]

The second quote you rebutted doesn't belong to me.

But it does lean to authority of some kind.
Can heaven exist without authority?...probably not.

 

[True Faith]

if Adam had free will, how could he know that taking from the tree of knowledge would be bad? how could he know that listening to eve to eat some of the fruit would be a bad thing? is free will with no knowledge even considered free will?

how can you have free will if you have no understanding of good and evil? poor adam had no idea that what he was doing was wrong, he had no idea what wrong was.

and what proof do you have that god has a place for us in heaven? please find me a credible source and do some tests to prove this theory.

Adam(pbuh) & Eve had full knowledge about that particular tree in paradise, Allah clearly warned them that they can go anywhere in paradise but don't go near that particular tree or they will become a losers/sinners if they disobey Allah's order.
Adam and eve were humans so, Satan convinced them same as he convinces us do bad things in our regular lives. so, Satan succeed in his trick and Adam & Eve both had committed sin by disobeyed Allah's order.

 

[jonman122]

Adam(pbuh) & Eve had full knowledge about that particular tree in paradise, Allah clearly warned them that they can go anywhere in paradise but don't go near that particular tree or they will become a losers/sinners if they disobey Allah's order.
Adam and eve were humans so, Satan convinced them same as he convinces us do bad things in our regular lives. so, Satan succeed in his trick and Adam & Eve both had committed sin by disobeyed Allah's order.

sure they know the tree is there, sure they know god said they would die if they ate from it. That still doesn't mean they knew WHY it was wrong :\ they had no knowledge of it

 

[True Faith]

sure they know the tree is there, sure they know god said they would die if they ate from it. That still doesn't mean they knew WHY it was wrong :\ they had no knowledge of it

you are confused with God's order and Tree.
In Adam's story, Tree has nothing to do with Adam, Adam & Eve Disobeyed God's order is the main reason.
Adam and Even disobeyed god's order and committed first sin of human history. It was tree there, if there were no tree, there would be some thing else but god tested them by restriction of tree and they've failed in test.

 

[idea]

I've heard time and time again from Christians that the reason there's so much evil in the world is so that we may possess free will. Without evil, there would be no free will. My questions are:

1) Is there evil in heaven?

no

2) If not, then does that mean there's no free will in heaven either?

no - it means everyone in heaven "chooses" to be good.

3) If there is free will and no evil in heaven, then why didn't God just make things like that on Earth to begin with?

God did not make everything to begin with...
Hebrew Word Studies
"The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews."


God is "transforming" what eternally exists...
God is cleanin up a mess He did not make..

 

[idea]

sure they know the tree is there, sure they know god said they would die if they ate from it. That still doesn't mean they knew WHY it was wrong :\ they had no knowledge of it

That's why it was a transgression, not a sin.

 

[jonman122]

you are confused with God's order and Tree.
In Adam's story, Tree has nothing to do with Adam, Adam & Eve Disobeyed God's order is the main reason.
Adam and Even disobeyed god's order and committed first sin of human history. It was tree there, if there were no tree, there would be some thing else but god tested them by restriction of tree and they've failed in test.

do you get smart by being told what to do? If someone told you jumping off a cliff was good for your health, would you 'have faith' and listen to them? I'm pretty sure having faith in god wouldn't stop you from slamming in to the ground and exploding, but having a parachute which has been proven to slow decent might help.

what i'm pointing out is just because someone says "don't do this" or "do this" doesn't mean you should or should not, it's like when a parent tells their child not to do something and the child asks "why?" and the parent says "because i said so." Does that sound like a viable reason to not do something? Why would god tell them to not do something, but give them no explanation of why they shouldn't eat from the tree? Why would he put the snake in Eden with the humans if he knew the snake would tempt Eve in to eating from the tree? Did he not forsee this particular niche in his plan?

 

[True Faith]

do you get smart by being told what to do? If someone told you jumping off a cliff was good for your health, would you 'have faith' and listen to them? I'm pretty sure having faith in god wouldn't stop you from slamming in to the ground and exploding, but having a parachute which has been proven to slow decent might help.

what i'm pointing out is just because someone says "don't do this" or "do this" doesn't mean you should or should not, it's like when a parent tells their child not to do something and the child asks "why?" and the parent says "because i said so." Does that sound like a viable reason to not do something? Why would god tell them to not do something, but give them no explanation of why they shouldn't eat from the tree? Why would he put the snake in Eden with the humans if he knew the snake would tempt Eve in to eating from the tree? Did he not forsee this particular niche in his plan?

Like Adam, God is taking our tests too.
Let's say, god made us enough smart and provide us driving license, Car, Alcohol and free time etc. now, by law we know that drunken driving is illegal but if Satan convince us get drunk and drive and kill pedestrians and we go to jail.
We can't blame god, we very well know about drinking and driving laws and punishments.
Adam and Eve also, learned all Laws of paradise same as we learn our country laws. so, arguing about breaking law intentionally and blame god or country law system that why they sold cars, alcohol etc and why pedestrians are allowed etc doesn't make sense to prove the point.
It was the law of Paradise Adam and Eve should not go near that tree, they broke the law of paradise intentionally and got punished. That was test from god just like we humans giving tests on daily bases and get pass or fail in our actions, the difference is we don't get punished and get reward in this world.

 

[jonman122]

Like Adam, God is taking our tests too.
Let's say, god made us enough smart and provide us driving license, Car, Alcohol and free time etc. now, by law we know that drunken driving is illegal but if Satan convince us get drunk and drive and kill pedestrians and we go to jail.
We can't blame god, we very well know about drinking and driving laws and punishments.
Adam and Eve also, learned all Laws of paradise same as we learn our country laws. so, arguing about breaking law intentionally and blame god or country law system that why they sold cars, alcohol etc and why pedestrians are allowed etc doesn't make sense to prove the point.
It was the law of Paradise Adam and Eve should not go near that tree, they broke the law of paradise intentionally and got punished. That was test from god just like we humans giving tests on daily bases and get pass or fail in our actions, the difference is we don't get punished and get reward in this world.

it makes perfect sense, in our world we know why those laws are in place. because when you drive drunk, you do really stupid things like run people over. In Eden, there was absolutely no reason that they shouldn't have eaten from the tree other than "god said so." And why is it sinning to have knowledge anyways?

it seems you didnt get the point of my other post.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Well let's say I happen to know you....

And you are so predictable....

Does my knowing.... stop you from .....changing your mind?

It does if...you are...infallible.

 

[Beaudreaux]

The main point is that we don't know what God knows

No, no, no, no! Not only is that not the main point, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument. If God knows with 100% certainty what you will do tomorrow EVEN IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HE KNOWS, then you are constrained. You CANNOT do other than what he knows or he will be wrong. Once again, WHETHER OR NOT YOU KNOW WHAT HE KNOWS IS IRRELEVANT.

 

[jonman122]

No, no, no, no! Not only is that not the main point, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the argument. If God knows with 100% certainty what you will do tomorrow EVEN IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HE KNOWS, then you are constrained. You CANNOT do other than what he knows or he will be wrong. Once again, WHETHER OR NOT YOU KNOW WHAT HE KNOWS IS IRRELEVANT.

i tried to tell him, but since the qur'an says god knows all and we have free will and they don't conflict, it must be correct. -.-

 

[Thief]

It does if...you are...infallible.

I looked up the word infallible...just in case it is associated with...prophecy.

It is not.

 

[jonman122]

I looked up the word infallible...just in case it is associated with...prophecy.

It is not.

you had to... look up the word... infallible.... because it is something......

that you are not.

but that... you claim...................... god to be.

period.

 

[Thief]

you had to... look up the word... infallible.... because it is something......

that you are not.

but that... you claim...................... god to be.

period.

A.....shallow....retort....you ...got...there....

 

[Cordoba]

If God knows with 100% certainty what you will do tomorrow EVEN IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HE KNOWS, then you are constrained. You CANNOT do other than what he knows or he will be wrong. Once again, WHETHER OR NOT YOU KNOW WHAT HE KNOWS IS IRRELEVANT.

I see it exactly the opposite Beaudreaux

As I don't know what God knows, I am free to choose the option I find most convincing

Let me give you an example:

A student is taking a course at university and has the final exam he must pass in order to graduate. If the student knows that the professor will make him fail the course whatever he does, this knowledge will influence his attitude and make him take the following position:

"if I'm going to fail the exam anyway - as the professor said - why bother study"?

Same here

If we know that God will send us to Hell whatever we do, why bother obey His commands?

Not knowing what He knows motivates a believer to do his/her best till the last day in this world

As to God, He is Eternal, and there is to Him no equivalent, so we can't understand based on our human experiences and references how He thinks

Enough to know that He is a Just God, (as He stated) and therefore He would not hold us accountable if we do not have free will

 

[jonman122]

I see it exactly the opposite Beaudreaux

As I don't know what God knows, I am free to choose the option I find most convincing

Let me give you an example:

A student is taking a course at university and has the final exam he must pass in order to graduate. If the student knows that the professor will make him fail the course whatever he does, this knowledge will influence his attitude and make him take the following position:

"if I'm going to fail the exam anyway - as the professor said - why bother study"?

Same here

If we know that God will send us to Hell whatever we do, why bother obey His commands?

Not knowing what He knows motivates a believer to do his/her best till the last day in this world

As to God, He is Eternal, and there is to Him no equivalent, so we can't understand based on our human experiences and references how He thinks

Enough to know that He is a Just God, (as He stated) and therefore He would not hold us accountable if we do not have free will

the only problem is you used an example that helped prove our point, if the student didn't know that the teacher was going to fail him but the teacher knew that he was going to fail the student, then the teacher knows about the students future while the student has no idea what the outcome will be. So no matter what he does, he will still fail even if he tries his hardest and gives it his all. THAT is why there is no free will with god.

 

[True Faith]

it makes perfect sense, in our world we know why those laws are in place. because when you drive drunk, you do really stupid things like run people over. In Eden, there was absolutely no reason that they shouldn't have eaten from the tree other than "god said so." And why is it sinning to have knowledge anyways?

it seems you didnt get the point of my other post.

It is God command, for a wisdom that only God know, to both Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit and God informed them that Satan is an enemy to them.

However, God know that Satan will persuade and cheat both Adam and Eve to eat the fruit and God knows, of course, that both Adam and Eve will eat the fruit. Accordingly, when this happened, both of them were blamed by God (and not only Eve), both of them got naked afterward, both of them began to sew together, and later God accepted the repentance (towbah) of both of them.
Quran says (English meaning translation):"O Adam! dwell you and your wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as you wish: but don't approach this tree, or you run into harm and transgression." Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, for not becoming angels or being alive for ever." And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser. So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy to you?" They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If you (Allah) don't forgive us and don't bestow upon us your Mercy, we shall certainly be lost." (Allah) said: "Get both down with enmity between yourselves (mankind). On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time." He said: "Therein shall you live, and therein shall you die; but from it shall you be taken out (at last)." [Quran, chapter7 (Surat Al-A'raf), verse 19 to 25]