Is this *finally* the moment we wake up to the climate crisis?

[It Aint Necessarily So]

My point is that all we do is look at man and don't factor in the greater of the problem, the sun, and just relegate the whole thing to man.

The sun isn't causing the levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere to rise. That is the source of the warming.

So, you think that the sun is cooking the earth? You don't seem concerned. You seem to be satisfied that if it's not man's doing, there's nothing to see here. How would you feel about a mass extinction event from an asteroid coming to earth? Same? Man didn't do it, but nothing else?

And you don't seem to place much value on life. You seem willing to risk being wrong whatever the cost. You're willing to guess even if being wrong kills countless people and beasts.

But doesn't that define life in America today for much of the nation? There's a strain of American that doesn't mind being wrong about an alleged stolen election. Go ahead and scorch democracy anyway. They don't mind being wrong about masks and vaccines. Go ahead and fuel an explosion in cases and deaths while watching schools closing, children filling up hospitals, and the people telling you such things die on ventilators. They don't mind being wrong about medical advice on the treatment of COVID. So what if it harms people?

The other kind of people are growing weary of this kind. If only they were a menace to themselves alone.

 

[Subduction Zone]

1.5 degrees is a guaranteed outcome at this point. Hopefully the die off/growing up happens fast enough that we can take action to stop 3.

Which is why I prefer Fahrenheit. 1.5 degrees is not so bad.

 

[Kenny]

The sun isn't causing the levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere to rise. That is the source of the warming.

That is quite a statement... so what is wrong with this statement?

"The greenhouse effect occurs because the sun bombards Earth with enormous amounts of radiation that strike Earth's atmosphere in the form of visible light, plus ultraviolet (UV), infrared (IR) and other types of radiation that are invisible to the human eye. UV radiation has a shorter wavelength and a higher energy level than visible light, while IR radiation has a longer wavelength and a weaker energy level. About 30% of the radiation that strikes Earth is reflected back out to space by clouds, ice and other reflective surfaces. The remaining 70% is absorbed by the oceans, the land and the atmosphere, according to NASA's Earth Observatory."

So, you think that the sun is cooking the earth? You don't seem concerned. You seem to be satisfied that if it's not man's doing, there's nothing to see here. How would you feel about a mass extinction event from an asteroid coming to earth? Same? Man didn't do it, but nothing else?

And you don't seem to place much value on life. You seem willing to risk being wrong whatever the cost. You're willing to guess even if being wrong kills countless people and beasts.

A couple of points:

1. Of course I am concerned about life. And, as a side note, that is why I am against abortion.
2. No, the hyper "the sky is falling" is a fear tactic that causes emotions to run high and intelligence run low. I believe it is cyclical. In addition, I am not afraid of dying, though I am not ready to die just yet
3. I believe recycling is a good things as well as taking reasonable care of our world. Pouring runoff poison in our waters should be stopped. (Not sure how we would make China do that - the greatest polluter in the world)
4. If a mass asteroid hits, or a massive title wave hits my area due to an earthquake... I will go to Heaven and then return with Jesus. Not to mention the fact that everyone is going to die some day.

But doesn't that define life in America today for much of the nation? There's a strain of American that doesn't mind being wrong about an alleged stolen election. Go ahead and scorch democracy anyway. They don't mind being wrong about masks and vaccines. Go ahead and fuel an explosion in cases and deaths while watching schools closing, children filling up hospitals, and the people telling you such things die on ventilators. They don't mind being wrong about medical advice on the treatment of COVID. So what if it harms people?

The other kind of people are growing weary of this kind. If only they were a menace to themselves alone.

I think there are people at every end of the spectrum and everything in between. There is just as many people who don't mind ignoring the stolen election, they ignore the questions about masks and vaccines, they don't care how many people loose businesses and jobs, ignore all other treatments on Covid, kill babies in the womb while we put in jail those who kill some animals to protect their livestock.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

so what is wrong with this statement?

"The greenhouse effect occurs because the sun bombards Earth with enormous amounts of radiation that strike Earth's atmosphere in the form of visible light, plus ultraviolet (UV), infrared (IR) and other types of radiation that are invisible to the human eye. UV radiation has a shorter wavelength and a higher energy level than visible light, while IR radiation has a longer wavelength and a weaker energy level. About 30% of the radiation that strikes Earth is reflected back out to space by clouds, ice and other reflective surfaces. The remaining 70% is absorbed by the oceans, the land and the atmosphere, according to NASA's Earth Observatory."

The science isn't correct.

The greenhouse effect occurs because triatomic (and larger) molecules in the atmosphere allow the sun's visible light to pass them and impact the surface of the earth, where they are absorbed and reradiated in the infrared, which these same molecules can absorb on the rebound headed toward space, and reradiate again some of those photons back to earth.

That's how atmospheric gases mimic a greenhouse and your car, which do the same thing with glass. Glass transmits the sun's visible light into the greenhouse or the car's upholstery, and then reflects the upward radiated infrared back down toward the plant or car seat, warming them up.

Nothing in the above is relevant to the greenhouse effect, which is unrelated to reflected light. It is related to absorbed and then reradiated light. Reflected visible light is also visible, and can pass by the greenhouse gases going back into space as easily as they did coming in. But not the IR.

Diatomic atmospheric molecules like O2 and N2 comprise most of the atmosphere. The are transparent to both visible and IR light, so don't trap surface radiation, which goes into space.

If you're interested in why molecules of three or more atoms can absorb the infrared coming up from the earth, absorb it, and reradiate it back down, when diatomic molecules cannot, you'd need to consider the degrees of motion possible in a 3-atom molecule not available to diatomic molecules. The latter can translate, rotate, and expand/compress like an oscillating spring, but only 3- and 4-atom molecules (CO2, H2O, O3, CH4) can also flap like bird wings, and that seems to be the relevant difference.

Don't you just love understanding science? How cool was that?

No, the hyper "the sky is falling" is a fear tactic that causes emotions to run high and intelligence run low.

You too? Another RFer is complaining about that as well these days. He also blames the warnings of the informed for the ignoratti running around like headless chickens swallowing antiparasitic horse paste.

I don't think that admonishing people for being irresponsible is either a fear tactic, nor the explanation for why intelligence runs low in them.

 

[Kenny]

The science isn't correct.

I never thought i would read this from you. Remind me that tell NASA they are wrong and that probably they really didn't go to the moon.

You too? Another RFer is complaining about that as well these days. He also blames the warnings of the informed for the ignoratti running around like headless chickens swallowing antiparasitic horse paste.

I don't think that admonishing people for being irresponsible is either a fear tactic, nor the explanation for why intelligence runs low in them.

Who's complaining? I'm just stating facts. You said that the sun was "cooking the earth" while I just said that we are in a cycle.

I also stated that we should be reasonably responsible in taking care of this earth while you are talking about headless chickens.

Yes... I think I am answering intellectually cool and in self control

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Yes, agreed.

It is a little pessimistic that all deniers will always stay that way, in my opinion. But then, I would have never predicted that so may after this time would believe the election was stolen.

Yes, it is pessimistic, but climate change has been mainstream accepted theory for almost 40 years, extreme climate events have been occurring with increasing frequency for 20 years (at least), we're getting "once in a generation" storms every year, and most of us have lived through at least 1 or 2 "once in a century" events. If the deniers where going to be convinced, they'd be convinced by now. We're discussing people pathologically married to the "sunk cost" fallacy. They've spent so much time an energy denying the increasingly obvious facts all around them, not to mention making it a symbol of tribal-political allegiance, that it's no longer a matter of accepting new information, to do so now, to admit to having been wrong all this time, would feel like abandoning a component of their identity.

Yes, yes, there will always be outliers, and occasional examples of people coming across late, but if we're talking about generalities and what MOST people will do, anyone over the age of, say, 35, has chosen their side and is most likely to stay more or less where they are on this issue.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That is quite a statement... so what is wrong with this statement?

"The greenhouse effect occurs because the sun bombards Earth with enormous amounts of radiation that strike Earth's atmosphere in the form of visible light, plus ultraviolet (UV), infrared (IR) and other types of radiation that are invisible to the human eye. UV radiation has a shorter wavelength and a higher energy level than visible light, while IR radiation has a longer wavelength and a weaker energy level. About 30% of the radiation that strikes Earth is reflected back out to space by clouds, ice and other reflective surfaces. The remaining 70% is absorbed by the oceans, the land and the atmosphere, according to NASA's Earth Observatory."

Your quote does not appear to come from your link. At best it is worthless because it is incomplete. It does not explain the Greenhouse Effect at all. I could explain the Greenhouse Effect to you so that you would understand it. There is no controversy about the Greenhouse Effect at all. It is easily demonstrable though experiment.

A couple of points:

1. Of course I am concerned about life. And, as a side note, that is why I am against abortion.
2. No, the hyper "the sky is falling" is a fear tactic that causes emotions to run high and intelligence run low. I believe it is cyclical. In addition, I am not afraid of dying, though I am not ready to die just yet
3. I believe recycling is a good things as well as taking reasonable care of our world. Pouring runoff poison in our waters should be stopped. (Not sure how we would make China do that - the greatest polluter in the world)
4. If a mass asteroid hits, or a massive title wave hits my area due to an earthquake... I will go to Heaven and then return with Jesus. Not to mention the fact that everyone is going to die some day.

I think there are people at every end of the spectrum and everything in between. There is just as many people who don't mind ignoring the stolen election, they ignore the questions about masks and vaccines, they don't care how many people loose businesses and jobs, ignore all other treatments on Covid, kill babies in the womb while we put in jail those who kill some animals to protect their livestock.

There is no "the sky is falling" coming from climate scientists. There may be some misinterpretations by supporters. For example Al Gore exaggerated or was wrong more than once. But that does not mean that AGW is not an extremely serious problem that we have to deal with. If you claim to be prolife then you have to act on AGW.. There really is no longer any doubt at all.

 

[Truthseeker]

Let's just say the prognosis dosent look well.

We are far too hardwired through evolution, so it is a hopeless cause.

However as with locusts, it may not wipe out everyone but it's going to be a spectacular number that will be gone in the far future.

The only good thing is that it's not likely to happen in one's lifetime right at this moment but eventually one generation is going to experience a mass culling of the population.

Nature has a way of seeing to that.

I don't believe we are hardwired. In my opinion, we have a spiritual side also. We're not just material. The spiritual side can evolve. How quickly that may happen remains to be seen!

It will be really bad someday, I believe, but not a mass culling I don't think. When we reach a certain tipping point, the emergency sirens will blow.

 

[Truthseeker]

We're discussing people pathologically married to the "sunk cost" fallacy. They've spent so much time an energy denying the increasingly obvious facts all around them, not to mention making it a symbol of tribal-political allegiance, that it's no longer a matter of accepting new information, to do so now, to admit to having been wrong all this time, would feel like abandoning a component of their identity.

There's something to that, I think.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I don't believe we are hardwired. In my opinion, we have a spiritual side also. We're not just material. The spiritual side can evolve. How quickly that may happen remains to be seen!

It will be really bad someday, I believe, but not a mass culling I don't think. When we reach a certain tipping point, the emergency sirens will blow.

There almost always is a natural form of population control in nature.

The problem with us is we as a species is obsessed with staying healthier, living longer, far past our natural expectations.

As long as population explodes and gets increasingly larger and larger, it's only expected more and more resources are consumed and discarded. Like that swarm of locusts.

I think there will a day someday there will be nothing left and draconian results will surface for a future generation as each fights over scraps.

We will probably see population control or some restrictive measure like China occur, more people means more disease and sickness and class warfare will result in groups of has, and has not individuals much like we see today but much worse in the future.

It's just a prediction and i hope it's not true for the future.

 

[Truthseeker]

The median projection of the world population is growth from 7.8 Billion to 11 million. Of course that is if no big disasters strike.

File:World Population Prospects 2019.png - Wikimedia Commons

I also believe that resources will be distributed more equitably in the future because it will be necessary to prevent disaster.

 

[Martin]

Sadly a lot of people won't get it until the sea is lapping at their doorstep, and they're overwhelmed by refugees seeking higher ground.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

There's something to that, I think.

Like I said earlier, I hate to be blunt, but we're past the point where gentle was appropriate. Now is the time for blunt. Indeed, it has been for a while now, and quite a bit of the current problem is that for too long the policy makers and leaders have cared too much about the delicate feelings of the vested interests of the carbonised economy and their easily led dupes who have been tricked into thinking science denial is a badge of political ingrouping.

 

[tas8831]

You seem to be satisfied that if it's not man's doing, there's nothing to see here. ... You seem willing to risk being wrong whatever the cost. You're willing to guess even if being wrong kills countless people and beasts.

That is an interesting issue - so many folks like Ken want to dismiss the 'possibility' that humans might be doing things that spell doom for our descendants. Because they just don't see the 'evidence' that they usually do not understand. Or they've seen the sky-is-falling alarmists get it wrong before*. Or their minister says only God can do this or that. Yet, these same folks will expend HUGE amounts of energy, money and time making it clear that everyone knows that they worship a deity for fear that if they do not, they will suffer in the afterlife.
An afterlife for which there is no evidence, a deity for which there is no evidence.
Strange how the mind works.

*funny how often we see climate change denialists refer back to things 'scientist alarmists' said were a problem in the past and were totally wrong about! These folks usually mention something like acid rain or the ozone hole - haven't heard about them in a long time, so they were just fake news, right?
They are too pig ignorant to realize that the reason they don't hear about acid rain or the ozone hole any more is that mitigation efforts were put in place and the problems were dealt with (for the most part). There were denialists for acid rain and the ozone hole, too. Difference is, more people listened to the scientists and gradually implemented fixes (scrubbers on power plants, banning CFCs, etc.).

Can't fix stupid, but stupid sure can screw things up.

 

[tas8831]

Sadly a lot of people won't get it until the sea is lapping at their doorstep, and they're overwhelmed by refugees seeking higher ground.

And then they'll demand to know why nobody told them about it when there was the chance to help alleviate some of the cause...

 

[tas8831]

There is just as many people who don't mind ignoring the stolen election

What stolen election is that?
The one in which a bunch of QAnon freaks and drunks claimed to have 'seen something' but can't tell what it was they saw? The one in which REPUBLICANs certified elections? The one that even Trump cultist Ron Johnson admitted on tape was LOST by Trump?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Is this *finally* the moment we wake up to the climate crisis? - CNNPolitics

(CNN)Record flooding in Philadelphia and New York City. Tornadoes in New Jersey. Fires burning through California and Nevada.

Everywhere you look, extreme weather. Weather the likes of which even meteorologists and other experts say they have never seen before.
What's perhaps more remarkable is that we know why all of this is happening: Our changing climate. As the Earth warms, more extreme weather becomes more of the rule rather than its exception.
In April, the World Meteorological Organization released a report detailing a five-fold increase in the number of extreme weather events over the past five decades. The WMO, which is part of the United Nations, estimated that those extreme weather events have left more than 2 million people around the globe dead and cost $3.64 trillion in total losses.

There will always be people who won't be able to see the forest for the trees, and who will point to the effects of climate change as reasons why we have more pressing concerns than climate change.

Take the Syrian Civil War: climate change was a significant factor (though not the only factor) in causing the war: Climate Change: An Unspoken Factor in the Syrian Civil War

Here in Canada, when Harper was Prime Minister, there were many frustrating moments where he was refusing demands for a carbon tax on the one hand while also arguing for increased defense spending (for more patrol ships to "secure the sovereignty of our arctic waters," since they're projected to be ice-free enough to be viable shipping routes).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think there are people at every end of the spectrum and everything in between. There is just as many people who don't mind ignoring the stolen election,

Aww, muffin. Is someone upset that his coup attempt failed?

 

[tas8831]

Like I said earlier, I hate to be blunt, but we're past the point where gentle was appropriate. Now is the time for blunt. Indeed, it has been for a while now, and quite a bit of the current problem is that for too long the policy makers and leaders have cared too much about the delicate feelings of the vested interests of the carbonised economy and their easily led dupes who have been tricked into thinking science denial is a badge of political ingrouping.

Indeed. Not to go off topic, but we're seeing that same mindset with regard to withdrawing from Afghanistan. 'But we've been there so long and so many have already died, how can we just leave?' REALLY???

 

[tas8831]

Aww, muffin. Is someone upset that his coup attempt failed?

And isn't that an odd take for 'Christians'? Then again, I see that the German Catholic Church admitted recently that they were complicit in the rise of Nazism...